What things can Intel and AMD do to make the desktop a better value?

[cbn]

Please write down your requests.

Here are two three four five six seven eight of mine:

1.) More options for more affordable primary storage included on the chipset (eMMC 5.0, UFS 2.0, BGA SSD, etc)

2.) More video outputs for processors with iGPU. (Display Port, HDMI and at least two DVI-I would be a big improvement IMO over the current state of affairs: HDMI, DVI-D, VGA)

3.) ECC Capability on the APU AMD motherboards. (Some of the AM3+ boards had ECC Ram capability, so I would like this on other AMD platforms as well.)

Very late EDIT (8/5/2014, 2:06 pm pacific time):

4.) For processor refreshes (where yields on the node are much improved) I would like to see AMD combine their two lowest end enthusiast SKUs (Athlon x4 860K and A6-7400K for Kaveri) into one stronger SKU that has the strengths of both SKUs, but none of their weaknesses. An unlocked Kaveri Quad core with 2MB cache and 256 stream processor iGPU comes to mind. Ideally this combined SKU should be priced below a processor like the A6-7600 and around the same price as either the Athlon x4 860K or A6-7600K.

Very late EDIT 2 (8/9/2014, 3:09 pm pacific time)

5.) Virtualization of the iGPU. As was discussed in the thread, this sounds like it could be a very useful feature for Linux multiseat (and other applications I'm sure).

Very late EDIT 3 (8/9/2014, 7:15 pm pacific time)

6.) Better OPEN GL driver support from AMD.

Very late EDIT 4 (8/11/2014, 5:33 pm pacific time)

7.) GT2 or greater iGPUs on at least some of Intel Broadwell based Celeron and Pentium desktop processors.

(I would be very interested to see how these would perform on a low cost Steam Linux machine)

Very late EDIT 5 (8/24/2014, 4:01 pm pacific time)

8.) Make the full power desktop easier to build for beginning DIYers. (See post #124 ---> http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36647336&postcount=124)

(These requests, in addition to those found in this thread and this thread.)

 

[ninaholic37]

I haven't owned a desktop ever. Laptops since 1989!

 

[monstercameron]

Moar coars!

 

[Roland00Address]

Something to give the computer a much faster storage system so a hard drive pc feels more like an SSD.

I do not know what this is. Built in flash memory on the processor or chipset such. Bundling ssds with the motherboards. Some sort of hybrid storage like you see on the z series of intel motherboards.

Some sort of cache flash memory where it can be configured one of three ways. As a primary os boot drive. Where if you have a normal hard drive it works as a hybrid drive. If you have a ssd in your system this just becomes a fast swap area similar to l4 cache.

----

I don't know what exactly they should do. Whatever it is we need to see improvements on the storage system for "normal" use our cpus are already fast enough. Yet we still want faster cpus not for sustained use but instead for burst use where we want that extra speed temporary so we can race to sleep or we can have the cpu wake up feel responsive, and make that delta of change be as small as possible.

Now for things such as servers, computer animators, scientific modeling, stock trading, etc (aka big stuff) the computers cpu can always get faster, as well as improvements with programmable gpus so a gpu acts like a cpu will always be a good thing, but for normal everyday people it is the storage system that is the limiting factor not the cpu.

 

[Lepton87]

Marry each other and produce desktop discreet GPUs of AMD design with Intel assistance where it makes sense on an Intel cutting-edge node, maybe one specifically tailored to GPUs.

 

[Roland00Address]

I am adding another thing. Some form of faster memory that you can easily connect to the cpu instead of using big expensive memory controllers, such as stackable memory. The limiting factor of using integrated gpus vs discrete gpus is how fast the memory is connected to the cpu. Now once you have fast integrated memory such as stackable memory then it is also a whole lot easier to make the integrated gpu programmable such as AMD is trying to push with HSA.

 

[Zodiark1593]

More processing speed. Can always use some of that. (Well, maybe not the norms anyway)

 

[positivedoppler]

More Contra revenue driven cpus for the consumer. I wouldn't mind a i7 for $5.

 

[Wall Street]

Since most PCs have multiple video outputs, multiple sound channels, wireless connectivity and a ton of extra USB ports, I think one possible value added for desktop would be if they made it easier to run multiple separate desktop users simultaneously from one PC. For example, be able to edit a document at my desk, while watching Netflix in the living room over a long HDMI cable while also having separate audio playing in the kitchen while I cook dinner simultaneously. I have an old laptop now in addition to my desktop, and I find I only use the laptop because running multiple "zones" of audio or being able to open apps from a monitor that is not your primary display is just really hard in Windows 7.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Since most PCs have multiple video outputs, multiple sound channels, wireless connectivity and a ton of extra USB ports, I think one possible value added for desktop would be if they made it easier to run multiple separate desktop users simultaneously from one PC. For example, be able to edit a document at my desk, while watching Netflix in the living room over a long HDMI cable while also having separate audio playing in the kitchen while I cook dinner simultaneously. I have an old laptop now in addition to my desktop, and I find I only use the laptop because running multiple "zones" of audio or being able to open apps from a monitor that is not your primary display is just really hard in Windows 7.

I second this. Jetway had something called "MagicTwin" that was an add-on feature to their mobos, and it basically required a dual-head video card and an additional USB keyboard and mouse.

It's doable with regular Windows, apparently. (Instanciate multiple native NT "workstation" objects, with appropriate hardware bindings.)

The problem is not the hardware, the problem is Microsoft. They want every user with their own PC, and every PC with its own copy of Windows. They consider their desktop OSes to be single-user, and any technology that violates that gets threatened by MS for licensing violations. Remember, they said that it was a license violation to run Netscape's web server on their workstation OSes. You had to purchase their server OSes to do it legally, and, surprise, surprise, their server OSes came with a built-in bundled web server too.

My contribution to this thread:
Lower the price on the NUCs, and / or soup them up a bit. I like the Asus VivoPC because it has more I/O options than the NUC.

 

[Roland00Address]

The problem is not the hardware, the problem is Microsoft. They want every user with their own PC, and every PC with its own copy of Windows. They consider their desktop OSes to be single-user, and any technology that violates that gets threatened by MS for licensing violations. Remember, they said that it was a license violation to run Netscape's web server on their workstation OSes. You had to purchase their server OSes to do it legally, and, surprise, surprise, their server OSes came with a built-in bundled web server too.

This may change in the future. Microsoft is not even charging for some forms of the os now. I would not be surprised in the future that windows will just have virtualized copies of itself. Like an Xbox is virtualized within a desktop followed by a htpc version virtualized and wireless projected to TV.

 

[Lepton87]

Since most PCs have multiple video outputs, multiple sound channels, wireless connectivity and a ton of extra USB ports, I think one possible value added for desktop would be if they made it easier to run multiple separate desktop users simultaneously from one PC. For example, be able to edit a document at my desk, while watching Netflix in the living room over a long HDMI cable while also having separate audio playing in the kitchen while I cook dinner simultaneously. I have an old laptop now in addition to my desktop, and I find I only use the laptop because running multiple "zones" of audio or being able to open apps from a monitor that is not your primary display is just really hard in Windows 7.

I think what you're describing is mostly a software thing, we can stream wireless even video output but I don't know the distance its viable, having said that, it would only be useful in houses with a big family. Also then remains the problem with very taxing applications run by one useer like a game. Will be computer be able to handle a game without hiccups with 2 concurrent users one browsing the internet and the other editing photographs in Photoshop? I think we would need more then 4 cores for that, even if the cores had HT, unless the the apps were lightweight. Also, that's nothing new, dumb terminals used to be popular in the 80ties and 90ties. Without any taxing applications it should be doable with today's mainstream computers like mine, if you can call it mainstream.

 

[DrMrLordX]

More Contra revenue driven cpus for the consumer. I wouldn't mind a i7 for $5.

Every time I see people talking about "contra revenue", it reminds me of something entirely different. But I digress!

Attempts to turn PCs into central media boxes have come and gone (I've even seen a home-brew attempt that was interesting in that it centered around video streams and console emulators). It would be more wise to focus on portable devices than dummy terminals, though. There are a lot of smartphones and tablets out there. The PC becomes less of a legacy albatross when it does something useful for anyone that has a portable device. That's more on the software-side of things, though, and wherever Apple is involved, expect obstruction when it comes to making their devices work with non-Apple systems.

On the hardware side, I would like to see more devices connected directly to HT/QPI links. Maybe I'm crazy to say that, but AMD in particular pushed that idea years ago, and it never made it on the desktop. With HSA floating around out there, you would think AMD would want to offer drop-in GPU chips on multi-socket boards as a dGPU alternative for certain market segments.

 

[cbn]

Since most PCs have multiple video outputs, multiple sound channels, wireless connectivity and a ton of extra USB ports, I think one possible value added for desktop would be if they made it easier to run multiple separate desktop users simultaneously from one PC. For example, be able to edit a document at my desk, while watching Netflix in the living room over a long HDMI cable while also having separate audio playing in the kitchen while I cook dinner simultaneously. I have an old laptop now in addition to my desktop, and I find I only use the laptop because running multiple "zones" of audio or being able to open apps from a monitor that is not your primary display is just really hard in Windows 7.

Dockport?

EDIT: Agree with other posters that software licensing issues are the major problem.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I second this. Jetway had something called "MagicTwin" that was an add-on feature to their mobos, and it basically required a dual-head video card and an additional USB keyboard and mouse.

It's doable with regular Windows, apparently. (Instanciate multiple native NT "workstation" objects, with appropriate hardware bindings.)

The problem is not the hardware, the problem is Microsoft. They want every user with their own PC, and every PC with its own copy of Windows. They consider their desktop OSes to be single-user, and any technology that violates that gets threatened by MS for licensing violations. Remember, they said that it was a license violation to run Netscape's web server on their workstation OSes. You had to purchase their server OSes to do it legally, and, surprise, surprise, their server OSes came with a built-in bundled web server too.

My contribution to this thread:
Lower the price on the NUCs, and / or soup them up a bit. I like the Asus VivoPC because it has more I/O options than the NUC.

I agree with this. Always has bugged me in gaming as well that on a weak console you can play 4 player co-op on the same machine, while most PC online games require one pc for each game.

The other thing very simple to me is just to add a decent bleeping power supply, so one could upgrade the PC easily. Although come to think of it, really efficient cards like the 750 Ti are making this less of a benefit since they will run even on most of the crap psus in OEM boxes. And please quit putting low end gpus like the GT630 in desktops with decent igps.

 

[cbn]

Regarding multiple users on the same OS, I found out this is possible with Ubuntu:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Multiseat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiseat_configuration

Multiseat refers to a single machine with multiple "seats" allowing multiple users to sit down at the computer, log in, and use the computer at the same time. The computer has multiple keyboards, mice, and monitors attached. Each seat has (at least) one keyboard, mouse, and monitor assigned to the seat.

Multiseat setups are great for schools, libraries, and family computers.

And here is an old tutorial I found:

http://www.linuxtoys.org/multiseat/multiseat.html

 

[cbn]

Something to give the computer a much faster storage system so a hard drive pc feels more like an SSD.

I do not know what this is. Built in flash memory on the processor or chipset such. Bundling ssds with the motherboards. Some sort of hybrid storage like you see on the z series of intel motherboards.

Some sort of cache flash memory where it can be configured one of three ways. As a primary os boot drive. Where if you have a normal hard drive it works as a hybrid drive. If you have a ssd in your system this just becomes a fast swap area similar to l4 cache.

Yes, some inexpensive but "good enough" flash bundled with the motherboard would be great for budget builds IMO.

Currently good cases and power supplies are relatively cheap. Same goes for budget motherboards and CPUs. Even RAM can be had fairly reasonably when on sale.

.....but then the primary storage is still rather expensive. (Price per GB for HDDs has dropped, of course, but the price floor remains rather high. Same goes for SSDs, though it seems the price floor is potentially a little lower for them.)

So any measure that Intel or AMD take to allow motherboard manufacturers to include a reasonable amount of flash on board might be very useful for lowering the total price of the desktop systems.

 

[NTMBK]

Better IGP, and better bandwidth to feed it. I want an APU which will beat a PS4!

 

[Fjodor2001]

Make interesting and innovative SW that can make use of additional performance, then increase the CPU performance substantially (10x or more). Or do it in the opposite order, and the SW will likely come automatically. Chicken and egg and all that...

 

[monstercameron]

Make interesting and innovative SW that can make use of additional performance, then increase the CPU performance substantially (10x or more). Or do it in the opposite order, and the SW will likely come automatically. Chicken and egg and all that...

hsa?

 

[mrmt]

The desktop form factor is a trade off of mobility for less power consumption, thermal dissipation and more expansion slots, and in none of these fronts the desktop is becoming more interesting.

Today each hardware generation is diminishing the needs for many ports (consolidating devices, USB hubs, Thunderbolt, WiDi, Wifi, etc) and the cloud is here with a lot of space for free. Thermal dissipation and power consumption are more related to how much CPU power you need to run a given application, and here things aren't good either. Hardware is evolving faster than consumer software. Have a 2006 desktop processor in your hand and you can still run satisfactorily today's software, and each generation that passes you can run satisfactorily more software in your mobile PC, further eroding the value of the desktop.

Given these two trends, I don't think there's much chance for the desktop to yield much value on the market. Everything the companies can do to improve your desktop in terms of software and features will cascade to mobile platforms.

I think that the desktop must be positioned as a low cost platform. Lean MB, soldered processors, soldered RAM, just like a dGPU today. With this maybe they will have sufficient cost advantage to offset the mobility trade off.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I see the future desktop as MiniITX and down, M.2 storage devices and so on.

The desktop will actually gain a better value if the size decreases. Most dont want a silly huge tower standing next to their desk. You even see people selecting a laptop for staionary usage, simply because the regular desktop size turns them off.

 

[NTMBK]

I really want to see more support for Thin ITX. Properly small, standardised heatsink location allowing for integrated chassis cooling- it's perfect for building upgradable/custom AIOs, or for tiny HTPC systems. But I think it's still Intel only unfortunately...

EDIT: An AM1 motherboard which is compatible with Thin ITX would be fantastic. I mean they would have to combine the AM1 socket with an Intel style cooler mounting system, but still... that would be awesome for cheap, tiny, fanless PCs.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Most dont want a silly huge tower standing next to their desk. You even see people selecting a laptop for staionary usage, simply because the regular desktop size turns them off.

NUC 'em. That's precisely what NUC and its equivalents excel at.

 

[Blitzvogel]

I see the future desktop as MiniITX and down, M.2 storage devices and so on.

The desktop will actually gain a better value if the size decreases. Most dont want a silly huge tower standing next to their desk. You even see people selecting a laptop for staionary usage, simply because the regular desktop size turns them off.

I agree with this, but for serious gamers, enthusiasts, and workstation users, towers will be necessary for handling all the potential components while facilitating easy upgrading.

However, I would like to see more performance all-in-ones, and the ability to upgrade an AIO with standard desktop components would be amazing, even if it meant sticking to low profile video cards and low TDP CPUs. I know that HP has an upgradeable AIO workstation but it is ridiculously expensive. I know Shuttle has (or had?) barebones AIOs but they are limited in what they can handle.