What the hell is wrong with Toronto Raptors?

[Miramonti]

No one else interested?

Rapters and Bulls are close to swapping franchises!

Mo Pete
Antonio Davis
Alvin Williams
Jerome Williams(?)

for

Marcus Fizer (post up player, needs shots, undersized defender)
Donyell Marshall (solid rebounder, shooter, stays outside too much, defense ok)
Eddie Robinson (not good for much)
Jalen Rose (needs shots, hates to drive, doesn't play d)

hmmm.....

I'm not sad to see either of those guys leave chicago except marshall, whos an excellent rebounder but not great defender.

Boils down to you getting our offense and we're getting your defense.

We're both going to continue to suck!

 

[FrogDog]

Originally posted by: jjsole
No one else interested?

Rapters and Bulls are close to swapping franchises!

Mo Pete
Davis
Alvin Williams
Jerome

for

Fizer
Donyell Marshall
Eddie Robinson
Jalen Rose

hmmm.....

I'm not sad to see either of those guys leave chicago except marshall, whos an excellent rebounder but not great defender.

Boils down to you getting our offense and we're getting your defense.

We're both going to continue to suck!

NO!! Not Jerome!!

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: FrogDog

Originally posted by: jjsole No one else interested? Rapters and Bulls are close to swapping franchises! Mo Pete Davis Alvin Williams Jerome for Fizer Donyell Marshall Eddie Robinson Jalen Rose hmmm..... I'm not sad to see either of those guys leave chicago except marshall, whos an excellent rebounder but not great defender. Boils down to you getting our offense and we're getting your defense. We're both going to continue to suck!

NO!! Not Jerome!!

Can't wait for him and chandler to play together, that will be an awesome sight, both very scrappy players imo.

 

[fs5]

Originally posted by: jjsole
No one else interested?

Rapters and Bulls are close to swapping franchises!

Mo Pete
Antonio Davis
Alvin Williams
Jerome Williams(?)

for

Marcus Fizer (post up player, needs shots, undersized defender)
Donyell Marshall (solid rebounder, shooter, stays outside too much, defense ok)
Eddie Robinson (not good for much)
Jalen Rose (needs shots, hates to drive, doesn't play d)

hmmm.....

I'm not sad to see either of those guys leave chicago except marshall, whos an excellent rebounder but not great defender.

Boils down to you getting our offense and we're getting your defense.

We're both going to continue to suck!

whoa where did you see this? I turned off my espn bottom line for the day! gotta read.

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: fivespeed5

Originally posted by: jjsole No one else interested? Rapters and Bulls are close to swapping franchises! Mo Pete Antonio Davis Alvin Williams Jerome Williams(?) for Marcus Fizer (post up player, needs shots, undersized defender) Donyell Marshall (solid rebounder, shooter, stays outside too much, defense ok) Eddie Robinson (not good for much) Jalen Rose (needs shots, hates to drive, doesn't play d) hmmm..... I'm not sad to see either of those guys leave chicago except marshall, whos an excellent rebounder but not great defender. Boils down to you getting our offense and we're getting your defense. We're both going to continue to suck!

whoa where did you see this? I turned off my espn bottom line for the day! gotta read.

All on the radio so far.

First I heard something about jalen rose and the raptors this afternoon, then the 8 player deal "in the works" on local and espn radio (chicago).

I haven't heard it as completed yet.

 

[JawaJedi]

Link to the Rose to the Raptors rumor

Linky

 

[Miramonti]

Done deal :beer:

Raptors get:
Jalen Rose
Donyell Marshall
Lonnie Baxter

Bulls get:
Antonio Davis
Jerome Williams
Chris Jeffries

Rose has become such a woosie, not playing much d and rarely going to the hole. He's going to play great for a game or two and then suck for you guys. If oneil can get Marshall to play good team defense, he's going to be awesome for you guys.

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by: fivespeed5
They can't even beat an AI-less 6er's! Mo pete is suckin' it up this year. Antonio Davis is too! Bosh is developing but we can't pin all our hopes on a rookie can we? The only guy showing up is VC.

how can you say AD has been sucking this year? everybody knew he wasnt gonna be as good as he was in indiana, and he's been having a consistent, good season so far...

but so much for that... now that we got jalen and donyell, that's a dece lineup to deal with: alvin williams (milt palacio), jalen rose, vince carter, chris bosh, donyell marshall...

altho they still dont have a true, or any, centre (except for like michael bradley lol)

 

[Kaiser__Sose]

Originally posted by: jjsole
<a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1673879" target=blank>Done deal</A> :beer:

Raptors get:
<a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=2636" target=blank>Jalen Rose</A>
<a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=2627" target=blank>Donyell Marshall</A>
<a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3641" target=blank>Lonnie Baxter</A>

Bulls get:
<a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=2143" target=blank>Antonio Davis</A>
<a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3115" target=blank>Jerome Williams</A>
<a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3626" target=blank>Chris Jeffries</A>

Rose has become such a woosie, not playing much d and rarely going to the hole. He's going to play great for a game or two and then suck for you guys. If oneil can get Marshall to play good team defense, he's going to be awesome for you guys.

If AD plays like he did when he first came to toronto you guys have a very good player there.. i think he lost his motivation here.. and he moved his family to Chicago earlier this year anyway.. guess he was anticipating the move..

with JYD.. you guys get all heart... good rebounder.. not much offence.. but his spirit really lifts the team.. and a GREAT guy in the community..

I just hope Rose can knock down his open looks he's gonna get as the second option with carter runnign the show..

Bosh and Marshall up front looks soo good for us as well.

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: Kaiser__Sose

Originally posted by: jjsole Done deal :beer: Raptors get: Jalen Rose Donyell Marshall Lonnie Baxter Bulls get: Antonio Davis Jerome Williams Chris Jeffries Rose has become such a woosie, not playing much d and rarely going to the hole. He's going to play great for a game or two and then suck for you guys. If oneil can get Marshall to play good team defense, he's going to be awesome for you guys.

If AD plays like he did when he first came to toronto you guys have a very good player there.. i think he lost his motivation here.. and he moved his family to Chicago earlier this year anyway.. guess he was anticipating the move.. with JYD.. you guys get all heart... good rebounder.. not much offence.. but his spirit really lifts the team.. and a GREAT guy in the community.. I just hope Rose can knock down his open looks he's gonna get as the second option with carter runnign the show.. Bosh and Marshall up front looks soo good for us as well.

Both of them looked great tonight. What a priveledge to finally have some interior defenders, whew!

JYD did his thing and chicago loves him already with his energy coupled with the win over milwaukee tonight. He sparked the team (and stadium) all night tonight, and had a double double with 4 steals . I think we all (over here) lucked out that the raptors are so desperate.

Hopefully I'm wrong but I feel sorry for you guys for giving them up and getting JR and DM in return. You unfortunately gave up a lot of defense and leadership, altho I think DM will fit in great with VC and the raps.

We'll know more later today...

 

[fs5]

raps are looking good... vince's fg% doesn't look so good though...
DM won't do this every game, but this is looking good. much happier now, but we did lose JYD... hopefully bosh will step up his boards...

Even though we lost 2 good front court guys I think we got the better end of the deal, if jalen can play as good as he did when he was on the pacers we got ourselves a winner.


What was Chicago thinking? They already have a decent front court with curry and chandler... if they want them to grow then they gotta play them. I guess it's a case of the front office wanting immediate results over long term results.

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: fivespeed5
raps are looking good... vince's fg% doesn't look so good though... DM won't do this every game, but this is looking good.

No, but he's a very consistent player and has had a very high fg% the past few years because of what you saw tonight. His weakness imo is playing too much on the perimeter and defending, altho he's a good shot blocker and rebounder in addition to scoring.

Even though we lost 2 good front court guys I think we got the better end of the deal, if jalen can play as good as he did when he was on the pacers we got ourselves a winner.

Jalens pacer days were solid but are long over - his consistency is horrible and he needs the ball too much to get in a rhythem. He's a constant whiner when he doesn't get calls, and often doesn't get back on defense because he's whining about the last non-call. He's not a very good leader either, but you guys have VC for that.

What was Chicago thinking? They already have a decent front court with curry and chandler... if they want them to grow then they gotta play them. I guess it's a case of the front office wanting immediate results over long term results.

This group has desperately needed interior leadership and these two guys can really help curry and chandler develop. Chandler has a bad back too, altho it is true, all 4 are starter material that will have to split minutes.

Last night the bulls won with jyd, davis, curry, crawford, and hienrich in the 4th quarter. Big lineup but was very effective.

Good to see the raps win. Maybe it will become a great deal for both teams.

 

[fs5]

Originally posted by: jjsole
No, but he's a very consistent player and has had a very high fg% the past few years because of what you saw tonight. His weakness imo is playing too much on the perimeter and defending, altho he's a good shot blocker and rebounder in addition to scoring.

I don't think he's a good rebounder, at least not defensively. He might get a few offensive put backs but that's about it. He doesn't like to hustle. He got scared after all the injuries and he depends on his jumper too much. Take a look at some shot charts the next time they play, he relies on his 18-20 foot jumper way too much. Compared to McGrady's or Iverson's (23 ft attempts, you know he's going to the hole) shot charts and you can see the difference.

Jalens pacer days were solid but are long over - his consistency is horrible and he needs the ball too much to get in a rhythem. He's a constant whiner when he doesn't get calls, and often doesn't get back on defense because he's whining about the last non-call. He's not a very good leader either, but you guys have VC for that.

His days maybe over but I think he's got a few years left in him. I don't know about the whining etc, I didn't follow his carrer much. What I do like is now we have 3 offensive threats, as opposed to just 1 now. This means every play VC won't have to work so hard for his shots. As for VC being a leader, I don't know about that. He's done his part of whining and saying it's a TEAM game, which basically means he's trying to take the pressure off of him. This year, however, it looks like he's finally taking charge.

This group has desperately needed interior leadership and these two guys can really help curry and chandler develop. Chandler has a bad back too, altho it is true, all 4 are starter material that will have to split minutes.

Last night the bulls won with jyd, davis, curry, crawford, and hienrich in the 4th quarter. Big lineup but was very effective.

Good to see the raps win. Maybe it will become a great deal for both teams.

I agree they needed leadership but 4 people in the front court is a lot, minutes allows being a problem.

 

[Miramonti]

I don't think he's a good rebounder, at least not defensively...

I wasn't too clear - I was referring to DM here. If he makes an effort, he can make up a significant amount of boards lost by not having AD.

JR was frustrating to watch while he was here, this year was the worst. When he first came to the bulls he seemed JR of old but either he's lost a step or he needs more motivation to play with more energy. I can see VC and rose taking pressure off of each other. Rose won't take vc's leadership spot (if thats what you'd call it ) but perhaps success will strengthen both of them in their roles.

The ironic thing is that we play in philly on thursday, and since you guys beat them there tonight, we'll get ripped on if we lose with our new lineup. (altho for fairness, the bulls were worse than the raps to start with).

 

[fs5]

Originally posted by: jjsole

I don't think he's a good rebounder, at least not defensively...

I wasn't too clear - I was referring to DM here. If he makes an effort, he can make up a significant amount of boards lost by not having AD.

JR was frustrating to watch while he was here, this year was the worst. When he first came to the bulls he seemed JR of old but either he's lost a step or he needs more motivation to play with more energy. I can see VC and rose taking pressure off of each other. Rose won't take vc's leadership spot (if thats what you'd call it ) but perhaps success will strengthen both of them in their roles.

The ironic thing is that we play in philly on thursday, and since you guys beat them there tonight, we'll get ripped on if we lose with our new lineup. (altho for fairness, the bulls were worse than the raps to start with).

yesterday's game was a beaut to watch... all the other games before that they would just try something low post with davis and he would get nothing. Or swing the ball around until someone takes a last minute jump shot. Or every other play they'd get vince off a screen, but he'd have to work hard to get the ball. He wouldn't kick it out because nobody else could shoot on the team.

DM does get a lot of boards, agreed. Last year coming off the bench for the bulls he averaged 9 boards a game! :Q but I guess you already knew that...

 

[fs5]

4-0 since trade! wheeeee
can you say: offensive juggernaut? 100 ppg in the last 4!

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: fivespeed5
4-0 since trade! wheeeee can you say: offensive juggernaut? 100 ppg in the last 4!

You suck! :disgust:

Nothing like another gm getting GM of the Year out of a trade from your own team. He could do that if the raptors are there at the end of the season.

The bulls are definitely better tho, combination of the trade and a new coach, and are in games like I haven't seen for a long time. They just don't have the maturity at the end of the fourth quarter to go inside and draw fouls instead of taking stupid 3's (crawford :frown: ).

 

[fs5]

Interesting article from ESPN:

Fool's Gold for the Raptors? Donyell Marshall is playing like Kevin Garnett. Jalen Rose is dishing assists like Jason Kidd. The Raptors are 4-0 since swapping Antonio Davis and Jerome Williams for Marshall and Rose. Did the Raptors, in one fell swoop, solve all of their problems?

It sure appears that way on the surface. Marshall's averaging 19.5 ppg and 7.2 rpg since coming to Toronto. Those numbers, for those of you who have yawned through Marshall's career, are higher than at any time in Marshall's career.

Rose has taken over for Alvin Williams as the team's starting point guard and is averaging 8.3 apg. While he's shooting just 34 percent from the field, his effect on the team has bee tangible. Rose's move to the point has allowed Williams to move to the two guard position, and his numbers have jumped from 4.8 ppg in November to 13.6 ppg since Rose took over handling the point.

It doesn't stop there. The Raptors were averaging a league-low 72.5 ppg. Since the trade, their scoring 100 ppg.

That's the good news, Raptors fans. The bad news? If Marshall was really this kind of a scoring machine don't you think he would've gotten the opportunity some where to showcase it? Rose has wanted to play point guard his entire career, but three teams, the Nuggets, Pacers and Bulls, all came to the conclusion that Rose was more of a liability there than at the small forward position.

I'm as open to change as anyone, but this deep into a player's career, I'm going to remain skeptical for a while. When Rose was traded to the Bulls, he put up several spectacular performances that had Chicago writers claiming he was the best thing to happen to Chicago since Michael Jordan. Now one should be surprised that Rose is playing like this. He's talented, and for the first time in a while, he's motivated. Can he keep it up? That's the question that has dogged him his whole career.

The other cause for skepticism is the Raptors' schedule during that four-game stint. The team is paper thin in the paint, and hasn't played a team yet (with the possible exception of the 6-15 Hawks) that can take advantage of that. The Sixers, Celtics and Sonics also have some of the thinnest front lines in the league.

The Raptors should be able to survive December just fine. Their schedule is soft (with the exception of away games versus the Mavs and Spurs) and the only big man of any significance they'll have to face is Tim Duncan. But come the new year, the Raptors may be in trouble if they don't figure out a way to parlay some of that perimeter depth into another low-post player to help out Chris Bosh.

and... now for the bulls:

Jamal Crawford finally gets his shot: The Bulls may not be getting the production or the wins (the team is 1-2) out of Antonio Davis and Jerome Williams that the Raptors are with Rose and Marshall, but the trade has had positive effects for Chicago as well.

Since the trade, Bulls guard Jamal Crawford is averaging 26.7 ppg, 5.3 apg and 2 spg on 48 percent shooting. That's up from the 15.3 ppg on 43 percent shooting that Crawford averaged in November.

While former Bulls coach Bill Cartwright used to focus on Crawford's shortcomings -- mainly his inability to get his teammates involved -- Skiles has decided to play up that strength by moving Crawford to the two and letting rookie Kirk Hinrich handle the bulk of the duties at the point.

Crawford's been given the green light to shoot the ball for the first time in his career, and he's responded with three straight sizzling performances.

"He's a very good shooter and very good all-around offensive player,'' Skiles told the Chicago Sun Times. "He needs to work on his ballhandling and some of his decision making, but that's typical for young guys. But he can score in bunches. He's explosive.''

Davis and Williams have also responded, though to lesser degrees. Davis' numbers are up from 8.5 ppg and 8.8 rpg in Toronto to 9.7 ppg and 11 rpg in Chicago. Williams is averaging 8.7 ppg and 7.7 rpg in Chicago after putting up 4.4 ppg and 7.3 rpg in Toronto.

 

[fs5]

I blame jalen on the last loss.
1-12! god damn it.

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: fivespeed5
I blame jalen on the last loss. 1-12! god damn it.

He will have to pick it up because I DM's consistency will decrease with the more minutes he plays imo.

The bulls unfortunately are getting desperate to have chandler back.

 

[fs5]

alright.... raptors +7 tonight and over 163.5 for a 2 team parlay tonight