What the hell is wrong with people?

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Screech

Golden Member
Oct 20, 2004
1,203
7
81
Originally posted by: Dissipate
I think that young people these days are quite out of control.

Here in La Jolla, CA there were some youths driving around in an SUV throwing rocks through people's windshields while driving. They killed one woman and injured a couple others. Fortunately the little pr!cks were caught. One of them turned out to be the son of a wealthy car dealership owner.

I'm from north county san diego, and we had a group of kids who throw some sort of sticky plaster along with rocks at my dad's truck a while back......didn't come off for weeks.

And dahunan, don't make a fool of yourself trying to link this to the iraq war...The types of kids who do these things wouldn't even be able to tell you what a sovereign nation is, or if Iraq is in north america or not....
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
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those kids are just reflecting the values of the broader society.. i.e., homeless people are worthless
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Meuge
It's the violence on them televisions. The kids watched "A Clockwork Orange" one too many times. :roll:

Clockwork Orange -- first thing that came to mind.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
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I am not trying to link it directly to the war.. just my constant reminder that attacking and killing people who never attacked us is very bad and heinous.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
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I see where Dahunan is coming from. A culture of violence begets violence. When as a nation we accept war as the answer, the first resort, then violence is justified as a means to attain goals or settle disputes or resolve perceived problems or just have a little fun beating up the helpless with baseball bats.

Why waste time on diplomacy or compromise or resolving societies myriad problems when you possess the overwhelming force that allows you to just wipe out those pesky time consuming problems instantly? You can achieve your goals immediately!

This is a microcosm of what we have become as a society.

And I'm not blaming Bush or Iraq or WWII or any specific person or war. I'm blaming the culture of violence that has been prevelant throughout human history and is perhaps more prevelant today than ever. The idea that violence is an acceptable means to achieve an end. The hate speech and fear mongering. The idea that might makes right. And even if it doesn't make right it still makes doing whatever you want to do OK because you're the king of the jungle. But this is a very short sighted worldview. It seems we haven't progressed very far as a species. We're still clubbing each other with baseball bats or laser guided bombs and the person holding the bat or the nation dropping the bombs is always in charge -- until someone with a bigger bat or a better bomb comes along.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
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Your post topic reminded me of the roaming bands of the Red Book thumping little pricks in China. They were no different that the Koran thumpers in the Middle East yet we spent upteen billions containing the spread of Communism for this kind of holier-than-thou-conservatist behavior. The conservatives are the danger to freedom that have represented the worst atrocities in modern times. The State should never be allowed to create an atmosphere hostile to its most vulnerable citizens. I'd put homeless people in that "most vulnerable" group right next to kids, pregnant women, and the disabled.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,842
8,436
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You assume that the parents 1) inflicted such trauma on the kids that it would 'explain' their deviant behavior 2) that the kids were 'driven' to beat the homeless men as a result of their upbringing. And 3) that the parents had complete control over their kids.

i take exception to your assumptions #1 and #2 that i made an assumption that the kids' parents inflicted trauma on their kids to cause them deviant behavior. in my post i made no such statement or even alluded to the idea that the parents of the kids traumatized them and drove them to crime. if by way of omission i led you to assume that then i must apologize, as i try to be as brief as possible. to your point #3, however, i agree with you that an assumption was made as you described.

to address your remarks for clarification, the point i was trying to make is that as their parents (if in fact they do have parents) and legal guardians, they had both a legal and moral obligation to society to raise their children to be good law-abiding citizens. as such, if their children committed crimes while still under their stewardship, then those parents should be held responsible for their kids' actions and be held liable for any legal and monetary penalties the kids incurred.

On the first point, a perfectly normal childhood does not necessarily produce a law-abiding citizen. People have committed crimes for personal reasons which have little or nothing to do with their childhood; avarice, jealousy etc.
i agree.

On the second point, many people have had rather horrid childhood and yet didn't go around beating homeless men but chose to make their lives worthwhile with meaning
i agree.

On the last point, it's rather presumptuous to think that the parents were playing Big Brother on their children 24/7, and that constant montoring would've made a big difference. I remember reading an article about the Columbine shooters years ago and apparently the parents of one of the shooters thought they were doing a good job monitoring their kid (ie opening his backpack) but didn't know he was shooting guns.

i think it's rather presumptous on your part to claim that i thought their parents were playing 24/7 big brother and the kids being constantly monitored. i can't see anywhere in my post that would lead to that conclusion. i don't think you need to exaggerate to make your point. and yes, i did assume that the parents had "complete" (another exaggeration) over their kids. as for your columbine reference, there is a distinct difference between monitoring your children and giving them good parental guidance (if the point you're making is monitoring = good parenting.) however, the gist of this part of your post is well taken.

i have two children (10 and 15). in confirming with those points that i've agreed with you on, i must say i've seen my kids doing and saying things (both good and not so good) that i never thought them capable of. i believe all parents share in this experience. thankfully, my kids are doing ok. (modesty prevents me from bragging about them, but ask if you want to know ;)). however, until they are legal adults and completely on their own i feel i am responsible for them and am more than willing to be held accountable for their actions (both good and not so good).

 

ModerateRepZero

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2006
1,572
5
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my apologies to tweaker for misunderstanding and/or making assumptions of his comments. With point 2, now that i think about it, what i *should* have said was that as a result of their upbringing the parents' values (or in some cases, lack of), the kids somehow saw the beatings as normal or justifiable.

with regards to your clarification, i agree with your premises, but not your conclusion. If you agree that upbringing doesn't necessarily produce a perfectly law-abiding citizen, then it follows that you can raise your children right and they can still run afoul of the law (ie. panicking during a hit and run and refusing to stop). Sometimes, through no fault of the parents their children may get in trouble. I'm a little curious as to how if the parents didn't beat their kids and raised their children right, they can still be held liable. It seems that we disagree on whether blame or responsibility should be paramount.

with the 'big brother' comment, i admit to exaggerating to emphasize the point that constant supervising of the kids doesn't necessarily mean that you know 'everything' about them. I pointed that out because in you saying that the parents should be liable, you seem to believe, if not assume, more responsibility than both the law and common wisdom allows.

heh i'll take your word for the kids growing up =P It's laudable that you are willing to be accountable (as it almost begs for grey-hair situations that need to be put up; my dad can attest to that), but I personally am not sure that making this public policy would be wise...especially when not everyone can afford to have a stay-at home parent.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: kongs
Idiots...I hope the get caught

Never lose hope. ;)

Two of these animals turned themselves in. Now we'll see how the judicial system handles them.

What do you think their sentence should be? Community service? I'm against the death penalty even though these two scum sentenced one of the homeless men they beat to death. My vote is for life in prison without parole.

Two teens arrested in homeless beatings

Assailants allegedly used bats in attacks on 3 men, one of whom later died

MSNBC staff and news service reports
Updated: 5:14 p.m. ET Jan. 15, 2006

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. - Two teenagers allegedly caught on surveillance cameras beating a homeless man turned themselves in to the Fort Lauderdale Police Department on Sunday, the Miami Herald reported.

The two suspects, described as 18-year-old and 17-year-old boys from Plantation, Fla., surrendered to Fort Lauderdale Police around noon ET, the paper said. The teens reportedly face murder and aggravated assault charges for the beatings of two homeless men and the death of another over a four-hour period. (It is the policy of MSNBC.com not to identify juvenile suspects.)

A surveillance camera captured two teens attacking a homeless man with bats before dawn Thursday, prompting a police search for two to four young men. The crime, though unusual for being captured on videotape, is remarkably common, advocates for the homeless say.

Norris Gaynor, 45, was attacked as he slept near the Broward Center for Performing Arts and died from his injuries at a hospital Thursday, police said. The other victims, Jacques Pierre, 58, and Raymond Perez, 49, were hospitalized and are listed in fair condition, according to the Herald.

The surveillance video from Florida Atlantic University shows two men chasing and beating Pierre, who had been sleeping on a bench. ?It looked like they were going for the head,? Detective Katherine Collins said.

Pierre found a security guard, who called for help, and the victim was hospitalized with head trauma and defensive fractures, authorities said.

Gaynor was beaten about 90 minutes later in a chillingly similar attack and later died. He had been sleeping on a secluded park bench near the performing arts center, police said.

Another 90 minutes after the attack on Goyner, Perez flagged down a fire crew passing a church and said he had been attacked while he slept.

?It?s senseless. If you look at these kids, it was almost like it was fun and games for them,? police Officer Scott Russell said.

NBC reported that the Salvation Army was opening an emergency shelters for the homeless in Fort Lauderdale, something the group usually does only on extremely cold nights.

Four teenagers pleaded guilty last month to fatally beating a 53-year-old homeless man in Daytona Beach in May. They await sentencing next month. A fifth teen still faces an aggravated battery charge and is free on bail.

What made Friday's crime unusual, advocates for the homeless said, wasn't that it was committed, but that it was captured on videotape.

'Tip of the iceberg'
The nonprofit National Coalition for the Homeless says that there were more than 398 acts of violence against homeless people in the last six years, of which about 156 resulted in death. These statistics do not include reports of sexual assault against homeless women.

"We think it's the tip of the iceberg," said Michael O'Neill, coordinator of the coalition's Homeless Speakers Series, designed to educate people on the causes of homelessness.

In a report on hate crimes against the homeless published in mid-2005, the organization said it believes many cases go unreported or unpublicized because many homeless people are mentally ill or addicts, fear retaliation or are frustrated with the police. As a result, the report says, it is difficult to assess the true magnitude of the problem.

O'Neill told MSNBC.com there was an escalation in violence against homeless people after two young men produced a series of movies, starting with "Bum Fights" in 2001 in which they filmed homeless people they had persuaded to do humiliating and dangerous things in exchange for drugs, small change or food. The video producers at first faced seven felony counts and four misdemeanor charges in connection with production of the videos, but ultimately were sentenced to 250 hours of community service.

"There's been a lot of copycat crimes," O'Neill said.

In an interview with the Sun-Sentinel, a Fort Lauderdale advocate for the homeless said beating homeless people is quite common in the area.

"It's one of the shameful secrets we have, the beating of homeless for sport," said Marti Forman, CEO of the Cooperative Feeding Program, told the newspaper. "It's a recreation thing, it's an initiation for gangs and fraternities."

She said she hoped the fact that the brutality was videotaped would generate outrage.

***EDIT***

It seems these two didn't just turn themselves in out of a sense of guilt or just to do the right thing. They had been identified and had left the state.

Police identify two suspects in fatal beating of Florida homeless man

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. Police say lawyers are negotiating the surrender of two South Florida teen-agers suspected of attacking three homeless men.

The teens, ages 17 and 18, are both said to have left the state. They face charges of murder in the death of one of the men and aggravated battery in the beatings of two others.

One of the attacks Thursday was caught on a security camera at the Fort Lauderdale campus of Florida Atlantic University. That victim and another man who was beaten are in fair condition.

Police have searched the home of one of the teens and removed a baseball bat.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Hehe they look a bit on effiminate side.. boys are gonna have fun in prison being held down by 8 big dudes and getting thier oak split. 10 years of that is plenty of sentence IMO..
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Hehe they look a bit on effiminate side.. boys are gonna have fun in prison being held down by 8 big dudes and getting thier oak split. 10 years of that is plenty of sentence IMO..

I would love to see some photos of these two a$$holes taken the moment they found out their little night of fun and games was caught on campus surveillance tape.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,877
4,989
136
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: Meuge
It's the violence on them televisions. The kids watched "A Clockwork Orange" one too many times. :roll:

Clockwork Orange -- first thing that came to mind.




Yeah, I really wish they'd stop showing that on television...oh, wait......
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,842
8,436
136
my apologies to tweaker for misunderstanding and/or making assumptions of his comments. With point 2, now that i think about it, what i *should* have said was that as a result of their upbringing the parents' values (or in some cases, lack of), the kids somehow saw the beatings as normal or justifiable.
no apologies necessary, really. in fact i'd like to thank you for sharing your thoughts on my comments. i'm a better person and a better parent because of it. :)

Sometimes, through no fault of the parents their children may get in trouble. I'm a little curious as to how if the parents didn't beat their kids and raised their children right, they can still be held liable. It seems that we disagree on whether blame or responsibility should be paramount.
that's an angle i've never considered, and i must say it's a rather refreshing and plausible point of view. what you've shown me here is that i suffer somewhat from myopia and as such i should take this condition of mine into consideration the next time i express myself on these forums.

on the subject of blame and responsibility, i can only say that being held accountable for my actions and of those who i am entrusted with was a very narrowly defined part of my upbringing as far as my parents were concerned. my adherence to this rule was critical to my avoiding getting "re-aquainted" with the memorable learning process on this issue. there was no interpretive discretion allowed on my part. it was strictly black and white.
that's how i was brought up and i've never considered ever deviating from my views on that until you shared your thoughts with me on this point. :thumbsup: