What The F@@@ Do They Want.....Exactly?

[agent00f]

I think they want somebody who had not abused their office for years.
I think they wanted a president who cared more about law and order than stoking racial tensions even when he was wrong time and again (starting with trayvon who looked like his son).
I think they want a washington that is more interested about the fact their health care just went up 25% than adjudicating the ever so important issue of whether a transgender person can use a bathroom.
I think they wanted somebody who wouldn't look down on them sneering as being part of the "uneducated white".

You're a little late to the party; your friends here have already started making excuses for why he won't do any of what he said.

 

[Jhhnn]

Ah, so your argument is more about wealth inequality than cutting people out of some sort of cash flow.

The chart referenced income.

Not sure I believe the article you reported, as there are other articles in the same time frame with significantly different numbers.

See, e.g., http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...-government-employees-outnumber-manufacturing

Yes, manufacturing employment has fallen faster than govt employment. Govt employment as a % of the population is still at its lowest point since 1962, putting the lie to your contention that it's 20% of the workforce. It's not.

Then what you are arguing is a non-sequitur. You said we need to stop relying on the government and job creators. The ONLY way you do that is to work for yourself.



Hogwash. Utter hogwash. There is always a job for people who want to work. It might not be a great job, but you can survive. I know first hand because I watched my parents scratch a living from essentially nothing. My dad came to the U.S. with $1:34 in is pocket. Although he was a trained linguistics teacher and a legit polyglot, he was unemployable in the U.S. because no one would recognize his degree (which was from a university in then Czechoslovakia). His solution to that problem was not to rely on the government to create an opportunity for him. He worked initially as a sheet metal stamper in a plant in Chicago. He saved up a little money and then opened a painting and wallpapering business. His business took off because he was hard working, trustworthy, reasonably priced, and reasonably skilled.

People tend to forget that most businesses in the world are not the gigantic brands everyone knows. Most are small businesses where people employ themselves and maybe 3-4 other people. You don't need a ton of cash or a ton of skill to open up a lot of those businesses.

Your argument is just a reiteration of the woe-is-me attitude that so many have today. instead of looking for someone or something else to create an opportunity for you, go out and create one yourself. We used to be a nation of doers. I'm not that old (39) and yet I still understand that point.

It's not about me. It's about unemployment graphs like this & the misery associated-

Your bootstraps spiel flies in the face of reality. Your father was clearly an exceptional individual. Not everybody is that fortunate.

And what, exactly is that new way? Hopefully its not just the rehashed version of Marx's Communist Manifesto that many are pushing for these days.

Taxes, regulation & govt jobs have nothing to do with the Communist Manifesto. The concept is not revolutionary.

 

[First]

It's a last gasp, primal scream of the Rust Belt that will end poorly. We'll all be here in 4 yrs sarcastically saying "Well, that went well".

 

[Jhhnn]

It's a last gasp, primal scream of the Rust Belt that will end poorly. We'll all be here in 4 yrs sarcastically saying "Well, that went well".

That's what I figure. Repub policy created the rust belt &, well, if they haven't done anything about it up til now they probably never will. Their ideology & that of their adherents is incompatible with making it better. It's Galt's Gulch top to bottom.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

You're a little late to the party; your friends here have already started making excuses for why he won't do any of what he said.

I'm not late to anything. I voted for Evan Mcmullin.

 

[agent00f]

I'm not late to anything. I voted for Evan Mcmullin.

Frankly I didn't read your post(s).

 

[Sho'Nuff]

Yes, manufacturing employment has fallen faster than govt employment. Govt employment as a % of the population is still at its lowest point since 1962, putting the lie to your contention that it's 20% of the workforce. It's not.

Read the article I quoted. If its a lie, its not my lie.

It's not about me. It's about unemployment graphs like this & the misery associated-

I can quote charts too. Mind telling me how yours meshes with mine? What do the different color lines represent? I couldn't find the graph you quoted (I believe its there, just couldn't find the source)

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/UNRATE

Your bootstraps spiel flies in the face of reality. Your father was clearly an exceptional individual. Not everybody is that fortunate.

My father's bootstraps story is pretty typical actually. Ask a bunch of second generation people how their parents came to this country, and how they are doing. My father didn't make amazing amounts of money. But he made enough to get by, to live reasonably comfortably (though there were some rough times too), etc. The american dream has never been about getting rich. Its always been about opportunity. I.e., the opportunity to make something better of yourself.

I'm not going to bother replying to the comments on the communist manifesto as the conversation will become even less productive.

 

[glenn1]

This still drives me crazy.
And the reason I originally asked the question.

Just now on CNN Wolf was asking some guy on the street why he voted for Trump.
And this guy started bitching about not having a raise with his social security for a long time, and the last raise (or increase) was only $3.
Then he added, "I guess that will buy me a loaf of bread."

WHAT??? WHAT???
WHAT THE F@@K DO THEY WANT... EXACTLY?

Poor fellow doesn't understand that unlike him, other voters don't expect the person they vote for to shower them with goodies. Trump voters aren't expecting him to pay their mortgage so OP is confused.

 

[FerrelGeek]

In a show of compassion, I offer the following to our little snowflake, Sportage....

It's absolutely hilarious that the new symbol for offering safety to fragile little liberals is a diaper pin. For those of you too young to get this, safety pins were used to fasten cloth diapers. You're the brunt of a joke and you don't even know it.

 

[Kazukian]

In a show of compassion, I offer the following to our little snowflake, Sportage....

It's absolutely hilarious that the new symbol for offering safety to fragile little liberals is a diaper pin. For those of you too young to get this, safety pins were used to fasten cloth diapers. You're the brunt of a joke and you don't even know it.

Honestly, the reports of what universities are doing to to coddle students after the election are disturbing as hell. I'm concerned if they require that level of support. How are they going to deal with the bumps and bruises of real life like divorce, being downsized, etc? What the hell did we do to make these kids so fragile?

 

[nageov3t]

near as I can tell, they want low-skill, high-paying manufacturing jobs and all without going back to the evil days of powerful unions.

the joke on them all is that even if manufacturing did come back en-mass to the states, nearly all of it would be automated and they'd still be out of a job unless they're willing to go to school to become a robot repairman.

 

[Jhhnn]

Read the article I quoted. If its a lie, its not my lie.

Your article does not support the statement that the govt employs 20% of the workforce as you claimed.

I can quote charts too. Mind telling me how yours meshes with mine? What do the different color lines represent? I couldn't find the graph you quoted (I believe its there, just couldn't find the source)

Source-

https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/201..._term=related_resources&utm_campaign=fredblog

My father's bootstraps story is pretty typical actually. Ask a bunch of second generation people how their parents came to this country, and how they are doing. My father didn't make amazing amounts of money. But he made enough to get by, to live reasonably comfortably (though there were some rough times too), etc. The american dream has never been about getting rich. Its always been about opportunity. I.e., the opportunity to make something better of yourself.

I'm not going to bother replying to the comments on the communist manifesto as the conversation will become even less productive.

So why haven't Trump voters in economically depressed areas done the same as your father? What's different?

 

[Jhhnn]

Poor fellow doesn't understand that unlike him, other voters don't expect the person they vote for to shower them with goodies. Trump voters aren't expecting him to pay their mortgage so OP is confused.

You've merely told us what Trump voters don't want which dodges the question of what they do want. So what is it they want?

If they want big city opportunities in small town America they're living in a fantasy. Technologically driven urbanization has been ongoing since the end of WW1.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Poor fellow doesn't understand that unlike him, other voters don't expect the person they vote for to shower them with goodies. Trump voters aren't expecting him to pay their mortgage so OP is confused.

I see your pays for my mortgage and raise you Jade Helm!

Glenn we both know there are loonies on each side.

 

[glenn1]

So why haven't Trump voters in economically depressed areas done the same as your father? What's different?

Well if absolutely nothing else his father was an immigrant thus was willing to move somewhere else to seek opportunity. If you're not willing to take any action (like leave your dying town to go to where jobs are) then yes the metaphorical "bootstrap pull" won't be so easy. Just expecting your economic prospects to change when you take no other steps to change anything else about your situation is wishful thinking. When you expect to passively have everything done for you then you can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps because you're not wearing any boots.

 

[K1052]

near as I can tell, they want low-skill, high-paying manufacturing jobs and all without going back to the evil days of powerful unions.

the joke on them all is that even if manufacturing did come back en-mass to the states, nearly all of it would be automated and they'd still be out of a job unless they're willing to go to school to become a robot repairman.

It's amazing what he got people to believe, which I guess is a testament to his salesmanship He got the rust belt workers to vote for their own funeral.

I've talked to a number of finance guys who are otherwise rational by the numbers people who believe that he can bring 5 or 6% GDP growth. I ask how, exactly, and nobody can give me a straight answer. My hat is off to Trump having fooled so many people so effectively.

 

[Jhhnn]

Well if absolutely nothing else his father was an immigrant thus was willing to move somewhere else to seek opportunity. If you're not willing to take any action (like leave your dying town to go to where jobs are) then yes the metaphorical "bootstrap pull" won't be so easy. Just expecting your economic prospects to change when you take no other steps to change anything else about your situation is wishful thinking. When you expect to passively have everything done for you then you can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps because you're not wearing any boots.

So, whatever it is that Trump voters want isn't tightly coupled with reality?

Am I missing something?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I suspect many of the rust belt voters that put Trump over the top voted Democratic for 20 or more years and felt staying the course was not the best for them

 

[Jhhnn]

I suspect many of the rust belt voters that put Trump over the top voted Democratic for 20 or more years and felt staying the course was not the best for them

Which neatly avoids the question once again. What do they want & why do they think Trump can deliver?

 

[glenn1]

So, whatever it is that Trump voters want isn't tightly coupled with reality?

Am I missing something?

What many Trump voters seem to want is the same thing a lot of progressives seem to want - wave a magic want and we magically return to the conditions that existed in the 1950s. It won't happen for progressives if we boosted tax rates to eliminate their boogeyman "trickle down economics" and it won't for rust belt Trump voters if we eliminated free trade deals and built a Mexico wall. Change is a fact of life and even if magic thinking could become reality then we still shouldn't long to turn back the clock 50 years. Because we were worse as a nation back then; for gays, non-whites, women, and even old white guys current situation is a vast improvement in many ways.

That being said we can mold the changes to relieve some of the pains we're seeing people express nowadays. Yes plenty of small towns have no real reason to exist anymore but the mass movement of millions into megacities is just as bad for many reasons. We should be seeking to decentralize our populations more. Once you get beyond the corporate culture inertia, there's no reason why telework shouldn't be pushed to a far, far greater level than now. Having millions of office drones all going to work in Manhattan or Chicago is stupid, wastes resources, increases costs for all drones involved, and is strategically dangerous. We would be exponentially better to have the ~8MM people in NYC encouraged to move to other cities so instead of 1 megacity we had 12-15 different cities boosted up to medium sized cities. Bringing places like Cedar Rapids up to the size of say St Louis and reducing NYC down to more manageable size helps all of us. Break the stupid expectation that having an employee means you expect their butt to reside 99% in a chair at company HQ and incentivize them to move elsewhere. Encourage the rust bel towns to market themselves to relocating urban professionals that now telework by selling them on the merits of small town life, etc. Kinda like what states do now to incentivize factories to relocate there, only with people.

 

[K1052]

That being said we can mold the changes to relieve some of the pains we're seeing people express nowadays. Yes plenty of small towns have no real reason to exist anymore but the mass movement of millions into megacities is just as bad for many reasons. We should be seeking to decentralize our populations more. Once you get beyond the corporate culture inertia, there's no reason why telework shouldn't be pushed to a far, far greater level than now. Having millions of office drones all going to work in Manhattan or Chicago is stupid, wastes resources, increases costs for all drones involved, and is strategically dangerous. We would be exponentially better to have the ~8MM people in NYC encouraged to move to other cities so instead of 1 megacity we had 12-15 different cities boosted up to medium sized cities. Bringing places like Cedar Rapids up to the size of say St Louis and reducing NYC down to more manageable size helps all of us. Break the stupid expectation that having an employee means you expect their butt to reside 99% in a chair at company HQ and incentivize them to move elsewhere. Encourage the rust bel towns to market themselves to relocating urban professionals that now telework by selling them on the merits of small town life, etc. Kinda like what states do now to incentivize factories to relocate there, only with people.

Some of what you're describing is already happening by market forces. NYC, SF, LA, etc have and will continue to grow but 2nd and 3rd tier cities are benefiting from the commensurate increases of COL in those places and attracting new jobs/residents. Also rural depopulation continues with people moving into regional population centers. Cities, regardless of where they are located, are foreseeably the future.

The idea that we're gonna break up NYC and move everybody to the rust belt however is fanciful at best. Also you should not discount that a lot of the younger generations moved out of small town America on purpose and unless you're sending the army to come get us are not going back.

 

[glenn1]

Some of what you're describing is already happening by market forces. NYC, SF, LA, etc have and will continue to grow but 2nd and 3rd tier cities are benefiting from the commensurate increases of COL in those places and attracting new jobs/residents. Also rural depopulation continues with people moving into regional population centers. Cities, regardless of where they are located, are foreseeably the future.

The idea that we're gonna break up NYC and move everybody to the rust belt however is fanciful at best. Also you should not discount that a lot of the younger generations moved out of small town America on purpose and unless you're sending the army to come get us are not going back.

I'm not suggesting we need to forcibly move people, and there will always be people who want to live in megacities just like there will be those who want to live in isolated Alaskan wilderness. But for many modern jobs there is no true business need or benefit to having employees physically co-located in a centralized company property. Trump was asking for new infrastructure spending anyway, push a good chunk of that into broadband connection buildouts. The net impact to the economy and people's choices will be just as great as when Eisenhower built the interstate system; that drove much of the great migration to the suburbs. Especially if as I suggested it's coupled with a robust push towards teleworking a similar broadband buildout could similarly lead to an improved distribution of folks and repopulate some of those dying areas. Lots of folks would love to live in a Mayberry type of town if it didn't mean they would lose their $80k job in the big city.

 

[FerrelGeek]

I agree. I left my home in northeast OH when I graduated college and moved to the Boston area, not knowing a soul, be cause that's where I got a job. Moved back to OH several years later to beat the MA slump that occurred at the end of the 80s. Left a job in my 19th year because I was sick of the games and sh*tty politics and moved to IN. The recession in 2008/2009 hit and killed the side of the business I managed, so found a new job - and moved again. You do what you need to do.

There are people on both sides that sadly need a hard slap upside the head. To the (former) blue collar dems, the world has changed and there's no going back. To the snowflakes on the left, it's time to grow up and learn that you don't get a trophy just for showing up, that you DON'T have the right to not be offended while you believe you have the right to offend anyone that disagrees with you, and you DON'T have the right to do nothing and get everything paid for by people who actually work for a living.

And btw, I know plenty of college educated people that willingly voted for Trump; and they're some of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet without a scintilla of racism, sexism, xenophobia, islamophobia, homophobia, tranyphobia. It's just that they have the temerity to disagree with the evolved humans of the left.

Well if absolutely nothing else his father was an immigrant thus was willing to move somewhere else to seek opportunity. If you're not willing to take any action (like leave your dying town to go to where jobs are) then yes the metaphorical "bootstrap pull" won't be so easy. Just expecting your economic prospects to change when you take no other steps to change anything else about your situation is wishful thinking. When you expect to passively have everything done for you then you can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps because you're not wearing any boots.

 

[K1052]

I'm not suggesting we need to forcibly move people, and there will always be people who want to live in megacities just like there will be those who want to live in isolated Alaskan wilderness. But for many modern jobs there is no true business need or benefit to having employees physically co-located in a centralized company property. Trump was asking for new infrastructure spending anyway, push a good chunk of that into broadband connection buildouts. The net impact to the economy and people's choices will be just as great as when Eisenhower built the interstate system; that drove much of the great migration to the suburbs. Especially if as I suggested it's coupled with a robust push towards teleworking a similar broadband buildout could similarly lead to an improved distribution of folks and repopulate some of those dying areas. Lots of folks would love to live in a Mayberry type of town if it didn't mean they would lose their $80k job in the big city.

The trend I'm witnessing is decentralization but mostly from cities with a very high COL to cities with more upper-middle COL, not to Mayberry (unless Mayberry is close enough to be a bedroom community). That's not so say those top metros still aren't growing, because they are. Also suburban companies are moving into cities or at least opening offices in them to attract talent that won't accept the suburban lifestyle or the commute.

Given the GOP's response to Trump's infrastructure plans I would suggest not holding your breath too long.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Which neatly avoids the question once again. What do they want & why do they think Trump can deliver?

Maybe, you should ask them why they decided to vote for Trump. It's obvious no one on the left was in touch with what they wanted and lost due to that fact.