What should we do about the Mental Health thing regarding Gun Laws?

nanette1985

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2005
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I spent yesterday in a meeting talking about the new NY Gun Law Legislation. As I've often mentioned here on anandtech I'm an autism advocate and I ran an autism support website and web support forum for many years. So I get a lot of requests for this kind of thing. A lot of people are concerned about the impact of recent events on the autism community. Since one of my better friends is heading this group, I agreed to talk, and hopefully come up with some statements.

One main thing is that autism is not a mental health issue - it's a neurological condition.

But everyone in our group is very familiar with how the mental health community works - we're nervous about what's going to happen.

Here is the actual language in that new law regarding mental health: A therapist who believes a mental health patient used a gun illegally is expected to report it to authorities.

Does that sound like it will have any effect on our gun problem?

Does anyone here have any suggestions that will actually help the situation?
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
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As I've said in another thread, the logical conclusion of the NRA's theme that mental health needs to be looked at, is an expanded gun confiscation program in the USA from people exhibiting mental abnormalities.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
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I spent yesterday in a meeting talking about the new NY Gun Law Legislation. As I've often mentioned here on anandtech I'm an autism advocate and I ran an autism support website and web support forum for many years. So I get a lot of requests for this kind of thing. A lot of people are concerned about the impact of recent events on the autism community. Since one of my better friends is heading this group, I agreed to talk, and hopefully come up with some statements.

One main thing is that autism is not a mental health issue - it's a neurological condition.

But everyone in our group is very familiar with how the mental health community works - we're nervous about what's going to happen.

Here is the actual language in that new law regarding mental health: A therapist who believes a mental health patient used a gun illegally is expected to report it to authorities.

Does that sound like it will have any effect on our gun problem?

Does anyone here have any suggestions that will actually help the situation?

Serious question about your autism community.

you say that Autism is a "neurological condition" but when someone is getting services or treatment or habilitation and is Autistic, is he or she receiving"mental health" treatment from mental health services or facilities?

I am unclear why you make the distinction. especially in regards to gun legislation. I imagine the distinction in useful in the medical community you work in....

Thanks.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
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I recall seeing a possible mandate that all metally ill people (no matter the illness) are to be reported by their doctors PERIOD and should be excluded from purchasing a gun at all, under any circumstances.

I would be in favor of that if that were on the table.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
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As I've said in another thread, the logical conclusion of the NRA's theme that mental health needs to be looked at, is an expanded gun confiscation program in the USA from people exhibiting mental abnormalities.

How cute is that? You're now blaming the NRA for the authoritarian actions of anti-gun proponents like yourself. Just too cute for words.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
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Serious question about your autism community.

you say that Autism is a "neurological condition" but when someone is getting services or treatment or habilitation and is Autistic, is he or she receiving"mental health" treatment from mental health services or facilities?

I am unclear why you make the distinction. especially in regards to gun legislation. I imagine the distinction in useful in the medical community you work in....

Thanks.

Because the majority of individuals who are autistic do not require nor receive such services or treatment.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
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If you're nutty in the head, no gun for you. Criteria would have to be by a mental health professional (preferably MD), and could be appealed, but what percentage of these gunman doing massacres aren't fuckin' nuts? 0%? Have any of them done it and family/friends been like "Wow, he was just a normal happy guy, great dad, never any issues, everybody liked him."...not really, most are "yeah, he was batshit insane, I'm not surprised by this".

Also, that biatch who straw bought for the guy in Webster, NY, prison time. And Adam Lanza's mom, well prison time if he hadn't gotten her. We need to keep guns out of nutcases hands.
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
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Personally I think that we need to set up old style sanitariums, the secluded health resort type. It would remove some of the stigma of being referred to such a facility by a family member.

For example, Bob just lost his job, his wife is leaving him and his kids are ungrateful little douche bags. His mother feeling he is not his usual care free self arranges for him to go to the sanitarium to unwind and get some help.

While in a secluded relaxing environment he is assessed by a mental health specialist, and is prescribed counseling or is transferred to more specialized care if it is needed.

But most importantly Bob now has a file and has received counseling.

Lets say he was diagnosed as having stress related to his shitty life, but nothing serious. He was given some counseling and is released with the number of his counselor in case he has a crisis, and is checked up on a week after his release, to make sure he's doing ok.

The nice thing about such facilities is that they would be inexpensive. Pretty much a small spa in a secluded peaceful area with some counselors.

And with obamacare we could force insurance to cover it :)
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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I think anyone with a known mental condition, neurological or otherwise, needs to be subject to a background check similar to purchasing a fully automatic weapon before being allowed to purchase or own a gun. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Aurora and Newtown shooters both autistic? Either way the term "autism" has been so expanded to be almost meaningless, but there certainly seems to be some correlation. Autism itself shouldn't automatically be grounds to lose one's Second Amendment rights, but in correlation with other things such as particular medications or homicidal rage should I think be sufficient grounds.

There are numerous mental conditions which in and of themselves aren't necessarily risk factors, but which are commonly treated with drugs known to have side effects not conducive to gun safety. Conversely, we have to do this in such a way that another huge factor in mass murderers, a feeling of being disconnected from society and from the rest of humanity, isn't increased.

Either way I'd suggest no action until a year has passed. Knee jerk reactions are not generally speaking smart reactions.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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If you're nutty in the head, no gun for you. Criteria would have to be by a mental health professional (preferably MD), and could be appealed, but what percentage of these gunman doing massacres aren't fuckin' nuts? 0%? Have any of them done it and family/friends been like "Wow, he was just a normal happy guy, great dad, never any issues, everybody liked him."...not really, most are "yeah, he was batshit insane, I'm not surprised by this".

Also, that biatch who straw bought for the guy in Webster, NY, prison time. And Adam Lanza's mom, well prison time if he hadn't gotten her. We need to keep guns out of nutcases hands.
Exactly. If you have a violent teenage/twenty-something son, perhaps shooting is not a good choice of mother-son hobbies. I'm all in favor of guns to protect one from sociopaths, but if you're living with a sociopath you've armed him or her as well as yourself.
 

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
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Exactly. If you have a violent teenage/twenty-something son, perhaps shooting is not a good choice of mother-son hobbies. I'm all in favor of guns to protect one from sociopaths, but if you're living with a sociopath you've armed him or her as well as yourself.

I agree with you and Doppel as well.
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
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Crazy people are already not allowed firearms. The trick is getting them on file and accurately diagnosed
.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Here is the actual language in that new law regarding mental health: A therapist who believes a mental health patient used a gun illegally is expected to report it to authorities. Does that sound like it will have any effect on our gun problem? Does anyone here have any suggestions that will actually help the situation?

Is your wording correct? You use the word "used". After the fact? Obviously that would have a minimal effect.

But yes, mental health professionals should be required to report those in their care that express interest in doing harm to others in a violent fashion. The problem with that of course is that how many are actually under psychiatric care? Will it have an effect - perhaps.

We used to institutionalize those with mental disorders. We may not have had the understanding of their conditions we do today or, we may have just found drugs that control their symptoms. Additionally, we may have relented to cries of the inhumanity of keeping them sequestered, etc. It doesn't matter because the end result is that they are now out in society. Certainly we should keep firearms away from them. IMO we should remove those that we know have the propensity for violence due to a mental disorder to a place where they can receive care and for the rest of their lives if needed.

Now, for my own story and I will keep it brief. My sister is bipolar. That is her diagnosis. She was born addicted to amphetamines, my mother having been described a new drug on the market while pregnant with her that would help with the weight gain she experienced while carrying me. My sister used many and various drugs while growing up culminating in a meth addiction that pretty much pickled her brain. She has been in the psych ward of the local hospital a number of times for the maximum length of time that is allowed. In the eyes of the state and the nation she is officially mentally ill. She is armed to the teeth. Rifles, shotguns, handguns galore. She inherited them all. Read that last sentence carefully.

In her last stint in the psych ward, I removed the weapons from her home. She hounded me until I returned them. She wore me down. I have no idea if I had any legal standing to have them taken from her and I did not pursue it.

Is my situation unique? I highly doubt it. Do I think she is a danger to herself or others with the armaments she has? Surprisingly no. But that's today. What about tomorrow?

Now that you know some of my thoughts on this subject and the background behind them, I think the most important thing to remember is that these mass shootings are uncommon. Bad things happen. They always have and I fully believe they will for the foreseeable future. We are tribal people that have advanced little in thousands and thousands and thousands of years.

If you made a list of the challenges facing our nation at this point in time, this issue of mass killings should be pretty much off the radar. In fact, mental illness aside, I think that putting people back to work and making the changes needed to nurture and grow a thriving economy would go far toward raising the feelings of well-being across the board.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,574
972
126
Personally I think that we need to set up old style sanitariums, the secluded health resort type. It would remove some of the stigma of being referred to such a facility by a family member.

For example, Bob just lost his job, his wife is leaving him and his kids are ungrateful little douche bags. His mother feeling he is not his usual care free self arranges for him to go to the sanitarium to unwind and get some help.

While in a secluded relaxing environment he is assessed by a mental health specialist, and is prescribed counseling or is transferred to more specialized care if it is needed.

But most importantly Bob now has a file and has received counseling.

Lets say he was diagnosed as having stress related to his shitty life, but nothing serious. He was given some counseling and is released with the number of his counselor in case he has a crisis, and is checked up on a week after his release, to make sure he's doing ok.

The nice thing about such facilities is that they would be inexpensive. Pretty much a small spa in a secluded peaceful area with some counselors.

And with obamacare we could force insurance to cover it :)

Or we could just let Bob stress out until he breaks. Better yet, we could just wash our hands of every person in this country who is mentally unstable until they shoot up a school or a theater and kill themselves or get arrested after they go on a murderous rampage, in which case the problem solves itself. And what are the odds really that it might actually affect you or someone you know? Pretty slim. The odds are acceptable I guess and we wouldn't want to burden the taxpayers with that added expense. If the corporations and insurance companies don't want it then it must be in our best interest right?
 
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Feb 24, 2001
14,513
4
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I recall seeing a possible mandate that all metally ill people (no matter the illness) are to be reported by their doctors PERIOD and should be excluded from purchasing a gun at all, under any circumstances.

I would be in favor of that if that were on the table.

I think that this may be short-sighted in that now you've set up a system which discourages those who need help from getting it. "I don't want to be blacklisted, so I shouldn't seek help" types.

I do like the idea of state run mental wards. Getting help shouldn't be something viewed as a bad thing, and should be open to everyone. Kid killed in car wreck? Come on in. Life in the shitter? We can handle that. Mental illness shouldn't be treated any different than say a broken ankle or bronchitis. Come in, treat it, and go from there.

The other problem is you now have a system which gives individuals the ability to dictate the rights of others. Do you rely on someone who may have a personal agenda and puts mentally ill folks on a "no-sale" list? Or maybe the MD is now too scared to black-list anyone because of lawsuits for civil-rights violations.

I don't have a solution, but mental illness that is open and not stigmatized would go a long way to helping people, irrelevant of the gun issue.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,223
47,267
136
I think anyone with a known mental condition, neurological or otherwise, needs to be subject to a background check similar to purchasing a fully automatic weapon before being allowed to purchase or own a gun. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Aurora and Newtown shooters both autistic? Either way the term "autism" has been so expanded to be almost meaningless, but there certainly seems to be some correlation. Autism itself shouldn't automatically be grounds to lose one's Second Amendment rights, but in correlation with other things such as particular medications or homicidal rage should I think be sufficient grounds.

There are numerous mental conditions which in and of themselves aren't necessarily risk factors, but which are commonly treated with drugs known to have side effects not conducive to gun safety. Conversely, we have to do this in such a way that another huge factor in mass murderers, a feeling of being disconnected from society and from the rest of humanity, isn't increased.

Either way I'd suggest no action until a year has passed. Knee jerk reactions are not generally speaking smart reactions.


Excellent post possum, I agree completely.




Damn boomerang. :(
 

nanette1985

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2005
4,209
2
0
Serious question about your autism community.

you say that Autism is a "neurological condition" but when someone is getting services or treatment or habilitation and is Autistic, is he or she receiving"mental health" treatment from mental health services or facilities?

I am unclear why you make the distinction. especially in regards to gun legislation. I imagine the distinction in useful in the medical community you work in....

Thanks.
Good question. There are lots of distinctions in the mental health world - this is just one of them. It often matters in law enforcement. That's why it matters to me (my son was arrested in 4th grade - that's when I became known for 7-yr-old kids arrested by their schools).

receiving "mental health"treatment - not for autism. But autism can come with other "treatable mental conditions" And it's whatever the health service or facility calls itself. Autism is my interest here - but not the sole concern for the entire world. Autistic people often get blamed for stuff they have no idea about. Other mental health conditions have their own situations.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,972
140
106
a public listing of anybody under the influence of prescribed psychiatric medication including all SSRI's. Read the MSDS of any of those drugs and you will understand why a public listing will eventually happen.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,686
6,737
126
Rant
Blaming Autism for Connecticut School Shootings Just Adds to the Tragedy
Posted by Julie Ryan Evans on December 17, 2012 at 11:31 AM
Comments (43)| Likes (11) .
One of the first things we learned in the wake of the horrifying Connecticut school shooting last week was that the assailant, Adam Lanza, likely had autism. His brother, Ryan, told reporters Adam "is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a 'personality disorder.'"


And with those words, thousands of parents of children with autism everywhere braced for what was to come -- an onslaught of finger pointing, stereotypes reinforced, and more misunderstanding of what's already a misunderstood disorder. And come it has.

Rachel Cohen-Rottenberg, who describes herself as a writer and photographer, a disabled woman, and an activist passionate about disability rights, wrote this weekend about how she's heard from people that Lanza's act could have been an autistic meltdown.


She passionately and eloquently rebuffs this on her blog, saying:

People in the midst of a meltdown do not take the time and the forethought to arm themselves with a bullet-proof vest and several weapons, make their way to an elementary school, and consciously target two particular classrooms of children and the school office. In fact, most people in the midst of a meltdown just want to withdraw and get away from people and the stressors that cause overload.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Autism is not a predisposing factor to premeditated violence. Autistic people are far, far more likely to be the victims of crime than its perpetrators.

Other moms of autistic children have taken to their blogs to try and debunk the myths as well. Emily Willingham talks about empathy and how children with autism do experience it, and how her son with Asperger's reacted to the shooting. A mom of a 5-year-old daughter with autism writes on the blog ProfMomEsq about her fury at the reports trying to link autism to the shootings: "I am furiously angry, because what I hear these 'experts' saying over and over again is that my daughter -- my beautiful, sweet, loving, funny little girl -- has more in common with a cold-hearted killer than the 20 beautiful souls who perished and the hundreds more he scarred."

And there are more. Liz Ditz has compiled a list of plenty of arguments and rebuttals on her blog I Speak of Dreams that contains lots of good facts and solid information. On Facebook this weekend, Autism Speaks posted the following message:

Several media outlets are reporting that the shooter might have had an autism spectrum disorder. Some have also inaccurately reported that there is a linkage between autism and planned violence. We ask that blame not be placed on people with disabilities or disorders in the midst of these types of tragedies and that everyone keep the families of Newtown in their prayers.

Sadly, none of it will likely be enough to undo the damage that has already been done.

I think of all of the moms of young children who have recently gotten the autism diagnosis for their beloved children, and I ache. There are so many unknowns and so many hurdles ahead of them that to add even more fear -- that autism could make their child do what Adam Lanza did -- is unbearable. I think of the children with autism and their parents who have dealt with the challenges and misguided public opinions for years, and fear this case is going to make their lives even more difficult.

It's not to say that autism isn't challenging and the frustrations of the disease do not contribute to other problems. But to blame autism for the Sandy Hook school shooting is too easy, and it's wrong.

What did you think when you heard that Adam Lanza may have autism?
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
I think anyone with a known mental condition, neurological or otherwise, needs to be subject to a background check similar to purchasing a fully automatic weapon before being allowed to purchase or own a gun. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Aurora and Newtown shooters both autistic? Either way the term "autism" has been so expanded to be almost meaningless, but there certainly seems to be some correlation. Autism itself shouldn't automatically be grounds to lose one's Second Amendment rights, but in correlation with other things such as particular medications or homicidal rage should I think be sufficient grounds.

There are numerous mental conditions which in and of themselves aren't necessarily risk factors, but which are commonly treated with drugs known to have side effects not conducive to gun safety. Conversely, we have to do this in such a way that another huge factor in mass murderers, a feeling of being disconnected from society and from the rest of humanity, isn't increased.

Either way I'd suggest no action until a year has passed. Knee jerk reactions are not generally speaking smart reactions.

No the aurora shooter did not have autism. There is no link between autism and violence.
 

nanette1985

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2005
4,209
2
0
I think anyone with a known mental condition, neurological or otherwise, needs to be subject to a background check similar to purchasing a fully automatic weapon before being allowed to purchase or own a gun. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Aurora and Newtown shooters both autistic? Either way the term "autism" has been so expanded to be almost meaningless, but there certainly seems to be some correlation. Autism itself shouldn't automatically be grounds to lose one's Second Amendment rights, but in correlation with other things such as particular medications or homicidal rage should I think be sufficient grounds.

There are numerous mental conditions which in and of themselves aren't necessarily risk factors, but which are commonly treated with drugs known to have side effects not conducive to gun safety. Conversely, we have to do this in such a way that another huge factor in mass murderers, a feeling of being disconnected from society and from the rest of humanity, isn't increased.

Either way I'd suggest no action until a year has passed. Knee jerk reactions are not generally speaking smart reactions.

The Aurora dude was supposedly diagnosed with Asberger's but as far as I know, there are some questions about Adam Lanza' I think there are multiple diagnoses.

Actually the term autism is being revised for the new diagnostic manual DMSV due probably in Sept 2013 none too soon.
 

nanette1985

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2005
4,209
2
0
No the aurora shooter did not have autism. There is no link between autism and violence.
Do you have a link that James Holmes did not have autism? I've seen a lot of reports that say he has not been diagnosed. Love to see some official information. You're right that there are no recognized links between autism and violence.