What should the TDP of the next optimized for mobile AMD APU be?

[Ratman6161]

There is no one answer to this. Intel makes mobile CPU's that operate in a variety of levels appropriate to the form factor and intended useage and AMD has to do the same. One size does not fit all. I've got a Lenovo Yoga X1 that's a thin and light machine with a 15W i5 U. At one time in the past for work I had a big honking Dell with an i7 "HQ" i.e. an actual 4 core 8 thread i7. I was doing work where that i7 was useful...but it was anything but thin and light.

 

[cfenton]

When I read the title my answer was 15W. That's what Intel has in their U series processors. The new 8000 series are even 4 core 8 thread. Intel's IGP are good enough for most things, including 4K video. Obviously, AMD could have higher performance models that use more power for power users and gamers, but if they want to get any kind of hold on the laptop market they need something that will fit in a thin chassis with all-day battery life. That's doable at 35W, but a lot easier at 15W.

 

[cbn]

As low as possible to enable fluid browsing and fast app opening. So 5-10w is enough for me, and vast majority of other people, judging by core-m.

I wonder how well AMD K12 would fill that role. This in combination with UFS 2.1 Flash Storage.

 

[NTMBK]

7W, for a great gaming handheld.

 

[moinmoin]

Finally somebody got the point.

To expand on it a little more, the distinction between Branded Kestrel and the Great Horned Owl/Raven Ridge is primarily interesting for the uncore details.

The cores are a know entity at this point. Frequency wise the mobile chips will run at their most energy efficient. The Stilt has a nice graph for the efficient range. That range of 2 - 3.2Ghz was essentially confirmed with the Epyc server chips. Anything over that will likely only be offered as TDP headroom and iGPU capabilities permit. With this the TDP per core will be incredible low, the above range essentially amounts to 2.5W per core, so a 4c 8t could be possible within 10W.

If there weren't the uncore, that is. For Epyc with its extensive inter-die and inter-socket communication the uncore weights in with 25W TDP per die at DDR4 2666. Even the uncore of the as well Zeppelin based Ryzen chips weight in with between 17.38W (R3 1200) and 19.4W (R7 1700) in real usage. Threadripper uses between 15.5W (DDR4 2400) and 22.5W (DDR4 3200) per die when completely idle. Obviously such an uncore can't be used on a mobile die, so aside the iGPU the optimizations AMD manages to get out of the uncore will make or break Ryzen Mobile's viability in the portable laptop market.

Great Horned Owl (presumably Raven Ridge) is in that regard a rather straight cut of Zeppelin: half the cores (so 1xCCX, 4c 8t), same dual channel RAM (with one likely essentially dedicated to the iGPU) and half the PCIe 3.0 lanes (so 16x). Ignoring the iGPU (with 11CUs) and assuming fully enabled I think it's safe to say the package TDP won't be below 25W.

That's where Branded Kestrel comes in (if it still exists) which cuts down the uncore further, a half or less of Great Horned Owl, half the cores (2c 4t), one channel RAM, an unspecified amount of PCIe 3.0 lanes (likely 8 or less). Considering the iGPU is almost a quarter being cut from 11 to 3CUs the whole package should be manageable with a TDP of 15W.

All this doesn't consider the overabundant use of throttling in mobile chips with which more performance can be temporally achieved without breaking the TDP. The Stilt implies that the cTDP power management implementation in Ryzen should be perfect for this usage pattern.

 

[cbn]

7W, for a great gaming handheld.

So a competitor for Nvidia Tegra X2.

I like that idea.

P.S. Tegra X2 is the SoC used in Nvidia's Drive PX 2 series: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_PX-series#Drive_PX_2

 

[cbn]

With so much interest in the low power I do admit I should have made some additional options for that in the poll.

However, as currently stands, AMD doesn't have any functional units that would lend itself for creation of such an APU.....so it would have to be a new die (very possibly with ARM cores like the postponed K12). This, in contrast, to a high TDP APU which could be made from existing x86 parts MCM (or adapted from the Zen based Server APU).

Therefore, IMO, the likely order of the APUs would be high TDP x86 first then low power (ARM) APU sometime after this.

 

[SPBHM]

I think it's worth having something close to 5, 15, 25, 35, 45... more than that not really.

 

[Rifter]

They should aim for 1 gigawatt.

 

[cbn]

I think it's worth having something close to 5, 15, 25, 35, 45... more than that not really.

For the average computer user I would agree with you....but there is a strong need for high power laptops too.

And AMD is large enough to cover this need.....unlike the situation I saw here with Intel.

P.S. I think AMD could (eventually) also compete with Nvidia and their Tegra as well. (This also would be easier than competing head to head with Intel)

 

[formulav8]

Depends on core count. There will probably be 2, 3, and 4 core RR options.

 

[NTMBK]

So a competitor for Nvidia Tegra X2.

I like that idea.

P.S. Tegra X2 is the SoC used in Nvidia's Drive PX 2 series: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_PX-series#Drive_PX_2

I had kind of hoped that Stoney Ridge could be a K1 competitor, but it shipped way too late.

 

[R0H1T]

7W, for a great gaming handheld.

Get a shield or switch?

 

[Abwx]

With so much interest in the low power I do admit I should have made some additional options for that in the poll.

Your poll TDPs are one order of magnitude above RR offerings since AMD already published the power range wich is 4-35W...

FTR the 4C/4T 3.1GHz R3 1200 use 28-29W at full loading while the 4C/8T 3.2GHz R5 1400 use 43-45W....

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/966-2/consommation-efficacite-energetique.html

 

[NTMBK]

Get a shield or switch?

They don't play my Steam backlog

Personally I want a handheld powerful enough to pay the 360 generation games (or rather their PC ports) at low settings, smoothly.

 

[cfenton]

For the average computer user I would agree with you....but there is a strong need for high power laptops too.

But isn't that market already served by the CPU + dGPU laptops? Once you get over 45W it seems to get really difficult to cool in a slim enclosure. Then you need to make a bigger enclosure, and at that point you might as well just throw in a 1050TI or 1060. Unless an APU can run at ~80W and perform as well as an Intel HQ series processor and a 1060, then I don't see the advantage. Unless, of course, it's way cheaper.

I think AMD has to make an APU that can compete with Intel on power usage for the mainstream or something that can compete with an Intel CPU + Nvidia mid-range GPU for mid-level machines. Preferably both. They are never going to make an APU that can compete with a 1080, so people who want the best performance will buy CPU + dGPU.

 

[cbn]

But isn't that market already served by the CPU + dGPU laptops? Once you get over 45W it seems to get really difficult to cool in a slim enclosure.

If the high TDP APU is physically more compact than a 45W CPU + 60W to 150W dGPU then the fans can be made larger for any given size laptop chassis. Larger fans (or perhaps four smaller fans) allow for the laptop to be quieter for any given CPU and GPU TDP.

 

[cbn]

Here is a very light GTX 1070 laptop I found on Newegg.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834154155&ignorebbr=1

3.96 lb 15.6" with 125W to 135W worth of CPU and dGPU (Core i7-7700HQ and Max Q GTX 1070).

Here is what Notebookcheck had to say in the initial announcement:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/MSI-r...GPU-and-120-Hz-3-ms-HDR-display.224652.0.html

Previously, the GS series was limited up to the GTX 1060 GPU with 120 Hz/5 ms displays for the 17-inch models.

Interestingly, the manufacturer will not be revising the Cooler Boost Trinity cooling solution in the new GS series refresh. The GTX 1070 is a very demanding GPU with a significantly higher TDP requirement than the GTX 1060, so we're crossing our fingers in hopes that the new GS notebooks won't run any warmer or louder than they already do.

Of course, since that announcement was released we know the GTX 1070 is the Max Q design (at 80W to 90W) rather than the full performance GTX 1070 (at 115W) so it does make sense the stock cooler meant for the full performance GTX 1060 (80W) could still work here.

With that mentioned, I haven't been able to find a review yet of this new Max Q GTX 1070 version, but here is what was reported on the full perf (ie, non Max Q) GTX 1060 version:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/MSI-GS63VR-7RF-7700HQ-4K-UHD-GTX-1060-Laptop-Review.207426.0.html

Do more fans really make for a quieter experience? System noise is indeed measurably quieter than the outgoing GS60, but not by as much as one would hope. The fans are still always active on the GS63VR even when on Power Saver mode with fan speed set to Basic. Idling on desktop is already louder than most gaming or multimedia notebooks including the Asus FX502VM and XPS 15. Keep in mind that the fans are much more sensitive to RPM changes when the notebook is set to Balanced or High Performance modes, so Power Saver mode is recommended when working in classrooms or libraries.

Running 3DMark 06 and 3DMark 11 will bump fan noise slightly to 37.2 dB(A) and 45.5 dB(A), respectively. In comparison, the FX502VM and XPS 15 9560 will be at 46.2 dB(A) and 47.1 dB(A), respectively, when running 3DMark 11. While the GS63VR is a bit quieter, it also suffers from higher-pitched fans not unlike what we recorded on the larger GS73VR. For example, our microphone measurements below show a narrower peak at a higher frequency range compared to the broader peak of the Asus FX502VM. This is likely due to the addition of the smaller ~40 mm fan, so quieter fan noise comes at the cost of a slightly higher-pitched system. Earphones are recommend when gaming as we can record a fan noise of 47 dB(A) when playing Witcher 3.

Note that our Load Average measurements below for the XPS 15 and FX502VM were recorded while running 3DMark 11 while our Load Average measurement for the GS63VR was recorded while running 3DMark 06, so these values are not directly comparable with the MSI.

Outside of the fans, we can notice no coil whine on our test unit.

So it sounds like at the 125W CPU/GPU level (for sub 4lb 15.6" laptop) the noise levels still need to drop a bit.

P.S. Here is what the fans look like inside this laptop:

Maybe if there were room for one more small fan? (This accomplished by a 125W APU replacing the 45W CPU + 80W GPU)

 

[cbn]

But isn't that market already served by the CPU + dGPU laptops? Once you get over 45W it seems to get really difficult to cool in a slim enclosure.

If the high TDP APU is physically more compact than a 45W CPU + 60W to 150W dGPU then the fans can be made larger for any given size laptop chassis. Larger fans (or perhaps four smaller fans) allow for the laptop to be quieter for any given CPU and GPU TDP.

^^^^ Another thing to consider (besides packaging size) is capability.

Example: For a content creation laptop (eg, Video editing and 3D Creation) having up to 16C/32T (rather than up to 8C/16T) would be a very nice for the APU. This for either a 15.6" or 17.3" laptop.

P.S. 17.3" laptops with relatively high TDP (GTX 1070) can be fairly light as shown by the following models (two of which are under 6 lbs while the rest are under 7 lbs)---> https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100167748 601206491 8000 4814 601206490 600553910 600004928 600004929&IsNodeId=1&bop=And&Order=PRICE&PageSize=36 .

 

[Abwx]

(This accomplished by a 125W APU replacing the 45W CPU + 80W GPU)

That s non sense technically speaking because they wont get over safe enginering rules, and 0.5W/mm2 is at most what should be expected for RR like for any other regular product from AMD, Intel or any other CPU designer, so in this case 125W would require at least 250mm2 for the die, i let you deduce the area for a 185W APU, FTR they use minimaly two 189mm2 Zeppelin dies for this amount of TDP...

 

[cbn]

That s non sense technically speaking because they wont get over safe enginering rules, and 0.5W/mm2 is at most what should be expected for RR like for any other regular product from AMD, Intel or any other CPU designer, so in this case 125W would require at least 250mm2 for the die, i let you deduce the area for a 185W APU, FTR they use minimaly two 189mm2 Zeppelin dies for this amount of TDP...

Abwx, Yes....An "optimized for mobile" APU would be use a larger amount of silicon run at lower than desktop clockspeed and Voltage. (ie, not Raven Ridge at 125W).

Perhaps this could use a Zen HPC Server APU as a starting point:

 

[NTMBK]

Remember that the GPU power consumption number includes the power hungry GDDR5 memory.

 

[cbn]

7W, for a great gaming handheld.

Get a shield or switch?

They don't play my Steam backlog

Personally I want a handheld powerful enough to pay the 360 generation games (or rather their PC ports) at low settings, smoothly.

Here is a telescoping controller that works with up to 10" Windows (and Android/iOS) tablets:

http://www.ipega.hk/index.php?option=com_phocagallery&view=detail&catid=11:iphone&id=1100:bluetooth-stretch-controller&Itemid=4&lang=en

https://www.amazon.com/IPEGA-Telescopic-Wireless-Bluetooth-Controller/dp/B00RE6FMD8

(Note the tablet used in the above video is a Dell Venue 11 with a 10.8" 1080p screen)

So NTMBK, Is a 12W Raven Ridge in detachable tablet-laptop with a 10.8" screen workable?

Yes, it will mostly be running very low clocks (when used as a gaming device).....but perhaps it will be faster than I originally thought--> https://gfxbench.com/compare.jsp?benchmark=gfx40&did1=53156431&os1=Windows&api1=gl&hwtype1=iGPU&hwname1=AMD+Radeon(TM)+Vega+10+Mobile+Graphics&D2=AMD+A12-9800E+RADEON+R7,+12+COMPUTE+CORES+4C+8G )

 

[TurtleCrusher]

Why not a 17/35w option and a 65/115w option?

 

[cbn]

Why not a 17/35w option and a 65/115w option?

Well, I decided just to list by the primary wattage......but a person could calculate the cTDPdown or lower wattage model by using same proportion (Eg, 35W --> 15W, 120W---> 50W, 165W---> 70W)