What qualifications are needed to read the Bible?

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RossGr

Diamond Member
Jan 11, 2000
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<< Not really. All it shows is that you asked a question and didn't want to hear any answer other than your own. Normally that is the behavior of a troll, not particularly unique or special in religious threads like this. Thanks for clearing things up. >>



Humm.... Seems to me that using potentially flawed iterpertations of the bible to justify you personsal version of the meaning of the bible is circular logic. Nowhere in that is there any new information for me. Believe it or not I have heard all of this before.




<< but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come. >>



Does this mean you think I am committing blasphemy! Cool, Thanks!

I believe in the teaching of Christ, the man, the teacher. I fully believe that Christ, the Man, the teacher would hang his head in shame if he knew that you, who claim to follow his teachings, had such an attitude.

My believes are mine and mine alone, I do not expect you to agree with me.
 

mackstann

Banned
Apr 17, 2001
1,013
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read my half-assed (i mean that) research paper i did in high school on religion

here


here is a copy and paste of something i posted here a while ago:



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Why do people insist on believing in the 'afterlife'??? Do you think animals have afterlives? Plants? Dust? Rocks? What makes people so special that we get an afterlife? When, for example, an animal dies, it dies. Its brain stops activity, and its body stops, and all that, and then it's just a mass of flesh. When a computer is turned off or unplugged, it does the same, except it as a pile of silicon, plastic, metal, etc. I think that humans have a hard time perceiving the concept of infinity. I also think they have a hard time conceiving death. You may argue against that comment, but listen: You may accept that you will die, you may also accept that you will never come back to life. But, most dont accept the fact that they will cease to exist. Of course, I have never died, and therefore do not know what it is like, but using logic I would conclude that it is the end of your existence. You may accept you will die, but in believing that there is an afterlife, you refuse to accept that you may cease to exist.

What was it like before you were born? Do you remember? Probably not, and I would assume because you did not exist. Well, in my opinion, that will happen again. I might add, I am also human, and the thought is a bit chilling.

On religion in general--

It seems that people are merely brainwashed into their religion, in most cases, that is. If you are tought all of your childhood that something is so, and most of society supports it, you will most likely continue that belief. I, for one, believe that religion is no big conspiracy (although it can seem like it at times). It seems to be that religion is a human instinct. There have been many, many societies, that have developed in isolation from each other, and yet they all believe in some sort of higher power, and the sole purpose is to explain things in which they cannot explain.

In that respect, I have coinned myself &quot;comfortable in my ignorance&quot;.

What i do not know or cannot explain, I either try to research, or simply remain uninformed. But I do not resort to explaining it away with religion.

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hope ya liked it
 

Athanasius

Senior member
Nov 16, 1999
975
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RossGr Quote:


<< I am sure that many of works were accepted BY SOME as early 300ad, but the acceptance was not universal at that point in time they could not even agree on the nature of christ, that issue was not &quot;resolved&quot; until his deification by Constitine around 300 - 400 AD. This major issue was resolved as means of keeping the peace rather then through convincing theological arguments. >>




OK, I'll leave the deity of Christ argument alone and focus on the historical argument about the validity of the twenty-seven books of the New Testament. I don't think it is wrong or improper to question why the curent 27 books were included, why some others were excluded, or whether or not the histroic Christian church practiced inappropriate censorship. After all, we are dealing with an historical process here, not mathematics. Hence, the question of canonicity can never be perfectly resolved with the same degree of certainty that a &quot;purely&quot; scientific issue could be.

But to suggest that the New testament wasn't significantly, historically established until 1000 A.D. is simply not good scholarship. If one is looking for a particular church council or document that clearly lists the twenty seven books of the New testament, the evidence is abundant.

1)The Gospel of Truth, critically dated to 140 A.D., quotes so much from the canonical writings that it strongly suggests that these writings were existant and well circulated by that time. The Gospel of Truth was found in Rome.

2) Marcion the Gnostic established is own canon in 150 A.D. Marcion taught that there were two gods: the &quot;harsh OT god&quot; and the &quot;loving NT god, Jesus.&quot; Although his teachings were decidedly non-conformist to say the least, his canon contained the Gospel of Luke, eight of Paul's latters, and several other writings.

3) The Canon of Muratori. This text was dated at 170 A.D. This canon recognizes all the same books as our New Testament today except for the following exclusions: 1 John, 2 Peter, James, and Hebrews.

4) Origen of Alexandria (185-253 A.D.) Origen listed the &quot;books being confessed&quot; and the &quot;books being argued against.&quot; All of the books in our current NT were listed in the &quot;confessed&quot; works except Hebrews, 2 &amp; 3 John, 2 Peter, James and Jude. Other books that were &quot;argued against&quot; were The Epistle of Barnabas, The Shepherd of Hermas, The Didache, and The Gospel of Hebrews. Origen accepted all of our current NT books except possibly 2 &amp; 3 John.

I could list quite a bit more, but I doubt many will read even to this point. I will stop here because I think it establishes historical credibility to the current NT manuscripts. Plus, it establishes this credibility well before Christianity was a politicall acceptable religion. The Roman culture tended to despise Christianity in general and often actively persecute it. The last Roman persecution ended under Diocletian in 303 A.D.

The early church was quite methodical in evaluating manuscripts. They looked for several signs of legitimacy:
(A) was it written by an apostle or a close associate of an apostle?
(B) was it consistent with &quot;undisputed&quot;, already accepted Scripture?
(C) was it widely circulated in the early churches?
(D) did it &quot;resonate&quot; with the Holy Spirit?

Granted, #4 is subjective, but the first three are pretty objective and reasonable historical criteria. Yes, some books have less evidence (2 Peter, Jude, Hebrews), and other books were seriously considered before being excluded (The Didache, the Shpeherd of Hermas), but for the most part the legitimate books stand on their own given the methodology the church used. And that methodology seems reasonable as a way of tracing back our roots to what the Apostles themselves taught.

Once Christianity was accepted as a legal religion and the church was given freedom to meet openly, it did not take long to establish the Canon. Eusebius (270-340) wrote a list of books , and the Easter Letter of Athanasius (367 A.D.) gave a list of the same twenty-seven books that we have today. Athanasius was the bishop of Alexandria, Egypt and wrote that letter to exclude a large number of Apocryphal writings that were popping up in Egyptian Christianity.

I would draw special attention to the Muratorian Canon in 170 A.D. It lists the same books we have today except 1 John, 2 Peter, James, and Hebrews. If one took those books out of our NT, would that change the basic teachings of the New testament itself? It would be a tragic loss, but no core concept of Christianity would be altered.

By any reasonable historical criteria, one would seem bound to draw the conclusion that the NT represents core Christianity, in all essential elements authentic and unchanged from the time of the Apostles. Whther one agrees with that core Christianity is a personal decision. But the historical evidence is overwhelming by the standards of historical criticism.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
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alienbabeltech.com
Athanasius is correst. There is little doubt that the first century Christians had essentially the same Bible as we do today.

There are literally thousands of manuscript copies of all 27 books of the New Testament (Christian Greek Scriptures) - some dating only 50 years after the original. In contrast, most classical authors of the day have had only a few of their manuscripts preserved (and often centuries after they were written).