What pump? Laing 10/18W DDC?

[WuMyster]

Could anyone suggest a good pump I could use for my upcoming rig? Im currently looking at a Laing 10W DDC-1T but if the Laing 18W DDC-1T Plus is much better I guess I could go with that. Open to suggestions, thanks for any help!

 

[EarthwormJim]

Buy the right pump from the start, and you'll never have to upgrade for later builds.

Get a MPC35X. It's PWM controlled so you can throttle it down for mouse fart silence at no load, and speed it up for high loads.

 

[aigomorla]

Find out if swiftech allows aftermarket tops so ur options aren't limited.

Otherwise get a koolance ddc cuz they allow u to change tops and shell casting even without void ur warranty.

The PWM ddc is the best in class due it being quieter, however ill take a fully customized ddc from koolance any day and watch it outlast the swiftech because of the custom shell koolance offers as an option.

 

[WuMyster]

This is annoying. I was set on the Laing D5 / MPC655 but now I'm stuck again. As its PDW, does it throttle itself or do I have to do it myself through software?
Also, I'm new to all this so shy would I need a top? Isn't the stock pump excellent already?
So out of the MPC655 and MPC35x I should go with the latter?

 

[aigomorla]

PWM will go with load on the processor.

So as your cpu registers a higher load though bios, it ramps up the speed on the pump.

In theory, its quieter, you only need the increased cooling potential when your cpu is doing work.

However overall unless u got super class hearing, i doubt u'll hear the pump over your power supply unless u have your ear right next to it.


Warning about DDC's..
They GET HOT... some even die due to overheating. Burnt marks show on the PCB plate where temps get hot.

This is why 90% of all my DDC's have Koolance Shells.
At the very least my customized DDC sinks are used.

The PWM might get away with overheating issues since its not ramped up 100% all the time.
However PWM pulses in voltages.... these are moving electromagnets... i dont know how long or how well these guys would last pulsing that like 24/7 due to the moving aspect.

Average life if a DDC ~ 3-5 yrs...
PWM DDC came out 2 yrs ago.... not enough time to tell reliability..

I am probably getting lucky with mine at 7yrs now on my DDC-2 which i feel are gonna die on my next build.

 

[EarthwormJim]

PWM will go with load on the processor.

So as your cpu registers a higher load though bios, it ramps up the speed on the pump.

In theory, its quieter, you only need the increased cooling potential when your cpu is doing work.

However overall unless u got super class hearing, i doubt u'll hear the pump over your power supply unless u have your ear right next to it.


Warning about DDC's..
They GET HOT... some even die due to overheating. Burnt marks show on the PCB plate where temps get hot.

This is why 90% of all my DDC's have Koolance Shells.
At the very least my customized DDC sinks are used.

The PWM might get away with overheating issues since its not ramped up 100% all the time.
However PWM pulses in voltages.... these are moving electromagnets... i dont know how long or how well these guys would last pulsing that like 24/7 due to the moving aspect.

Average life if a DDC ~ 3-5 yrs...
PWM DDC came out 2 yrs ago.... not enough time to tell reliability..

I am probably getting lucky with mine at 7yrs now on my DDC-2 which i feel are gonna die on my next build.

PWM is only signalling. The onboard circuit converts the PWM duty cycle to an appropriate drive level. It's not going to add fatigue like you're thinking.

These are brushless DC motors, they're driven by square waves anyway.

 

[aigomorla]

PWM is only signalling. The onboard circuit converts the PWM duty cycle to an appropriate drive level. It's not going to add fatigue like you're thinking.

These are brushless DC motors, they're driven by square waves anyway.

thats what they said about fans.

yet pwm fans have a higher fail rate them the normal ones.

id rather wait til they been arround for at least 5 yrs b4 i make a call.

The DDC has had a bumpy ride...

DDC-2 -> best performance yet had issues with overheating.
DDC-3.2 -> they reduced the performance on it to combat overheating. Less deaths reported.
DDC-3.25 -> pwm ddc -> did u know koolance used these b4 swiftech did? Been out for a while now without pwm... swiftech brought the pwm wire... they been active for 2 yrs now.

id think koolance would use the pwm wire if they felt it didnt do anything.
However koolance's ddc still dont use the pwm wire.

 

[EarthwormJim]

thats what they said about fans.

yet pwm fans have a higher fail rate them the normal ones.

id rather wait til they been arround for at least 5 yrs b4 i make a call.

The DDC has had a bumpy ride...

DDC-2 -> best performance yet had issues with overheating.
DDC-3.2 -> they reduced the performance on it to combat overheating. Less deaths reported.
DDC-3.25 -> pwm ddc -> did u know koolance used these b4 swiftech did? Been out for a while now without pwm... swiftech brought the pwm wire... they been active for 2 yrs now.

id think koolance would use the pwm wire if they felt it didnt do anything.
However koolance's ddc still dont use the pwm wire.

There could be exclusivity agreements between Laing and Swiftech.

I don't really see how you can say PWM fans are less reliable. There are millions of them in computers (Intel stock solution).

It's not as if PWM even drives the motors, it's all signalling. So it is entirely up to the manufacturer to decide how they interpret and what they do with the signal. A bad design might try to start the motor up at a low drive, if it's receiving a low duty cycle PWM. A good design will start up at high drive, then throttle down to the corresponding PWM duty cycle.

 

[dawp]

I just got a mpc35x and it will void your warranty if you change tops, they have a label on the pump that if removed or damaged voids it.

it does seem to run cool at idle, rpm of about 1400, but I think I will get the aftermarket heatsink that swiftech sells.

 

[aigomorla]

There could be exclusivity agreements between Laing and Swiftech.

I don't really see how you can say PWM fans are less reliable. There are millions of them in computers (Intel stock solution).

It's not as if PWM even drives the motors, it's all signalling. So it is entirely up to the manufacturer to decide how they interpret and what they do with the signal. A bad design might try to start the motor up at a low drive, if it's receiving a low duty cycle PWM. A good design will start up at high drive, then throttle down to the corresponding PWM duty cycle.

the average pwm fan ramps up at like .15amps.

a Intel Stock fan im assuming ramps even lower then that.

A DDC ramps up to 2.5amps.

Ive had many high performance PWM fans fail on me which ramp'd up to .52amps.

And yeah while i understand PWM, my understanding is you really wanted them only on things like LED's, Flourescents.
Things like a motor was asking for it with higher current.

If you think about it.. how long has the pulse method magnetic motor even been around in our science?

Im not saying the 35x is bad.
Im just saying there isnt enough record to give it a real reliability ranking against something proven like a DDC-3.25
It may last longer then a 3.25... it may not... I can not tell you 100%.

The one thing i can tell ya tho, is you cant do anything with a swiftech pump.
Not even open it out to clean it.

I remember getting into a really heated arguement with gabe telling him how stupid it is to tell his customers to clean a pump, run pinesole though it.
Thats how gabe told us to clean out the pump.... pine sole.. !!! :\

Nah... i'll use koolances... and take it apart... mod the hell out of it.. and not worry about voiding warranty.

This is how a fully modded (still under warrenty) koolance DDC looks like:

This is attached to a koolance bay res.

This is the same bay res with dual pumps.

XSPC top friendly... well almost anything which can take a DDC will work.

And its far superior to swiftech due to the direct PCB cooling and not plastic in the middle:

Did u guys know i am the guy who made DDC sinks... 😛
I was the first to introduce these guys with Bei Fei... and people started copying me. 😛



Again... OP the 35x is a great pump.
Dont let me scare you.
They are reliable.. i have friends who had them running since the launch.
However the time is still ticking on these guys b4 u can make a complete call.

I will tell you, they are a ton more reliable then my DDC-2's

 

[LuluTheMonk]

When would you recommend using a D5? Specifically the PWM model.

 

[smackababy]

I remember getting into a really heated arguement with gabe telling him how stupid it is to tell his customers to clean a pump, run pinesole though it.
Thats how gabe told us to clean out the pump.... pine sole.. !!! :\

As far as I know, Pine Sol is just a pine oil solution with water. Last I checked pine oil wouldn't cause galvanic corrosion.

And after some googling, people seem to use it to clean carburetors in a Pine Sol / Distilled water solution.

And I looked up the actual Pine Sol ingredients just to be sure: 8-12% pine oil, alkyl alcohol ethoxylates, sodium petroleum sulfonate and isopropyl alcohol. Not sure exactly what effects those would have.

 

[EarthwormJim]

And yeah while i understand PWM, my understanding is you really wanted them only on things like LED's, Flourescents.
Things like a motor was asking for it with higher current.

If you think about it.. how long has the pulse method magnetic motor even been around in our science?

~50 years. There's nothing physically special about them, they're really just synchronous motors with an inverter circuit built in.

 

[aigomorla]

When would you recommend using a D5? Specifically the PWM model.

when u need something with a lower pitch noise then a DDC.
But D5's arent small.

And I looked up the actual Pine Sol ingredients just to be sure: 8-12% pine oil, alkyl alcohol ethoxylates, sodium petroleum sulfonate and isopropyl alcohol. Not sure exactly what effects those would have.

so tell me what that does to rubber o rings? 😛

 

[Unoid]

I've got like 7 years on my EHEIM lol.

my MPC 655 only lasted 3.5 years

 

[MrK6]

The secret is to get some cooling on your pump, situating it in case airflow is an easy solution. I also like the idea the Koolance has of using the water flow to assist with cooling the pump itself. I personally use a 10W DDC in my build (Swiftech MCP350, same thing), but its limit is one CPU block and one full-cover GPU water block. I can already tell the flow decreased compared to just a GPU block. However, I think the 35x performance charts look great, and its top is already pretty good so there's not much need to buy another. If I had to build again right now, it's probably what I'd get.