What message do you think the Harris campaign and and maybe Democrats generally should emphasize?

[Moonbeam]

As a somewhat reluctant and donor to the Democratic Party I get the occasional canned survey to check off what I regard as the issues most important to me but what is important to me is never on the list of choices they offer. There is only one issue that is of real importance to me, all the others being secondary if the first is not achieved, and that is to preserve American Democracy, and that is something people here and around the world increasingly are voting to eliminate.

I believe that people everywhere are more and more interested in having a Daddy figure protect them from their own fears while failing to realize they are voting in the very people who will make them the very victims they hope to avoid becoming. This is a human response to become conservative in the face of fear. We have created a world full of threat. We are in the midst of climate change, a mass extinction event, threats of violence and war, even nuclear war, the robots are coming for our jobs as are those driven to mass emigration from their impoverished homelands. And all this happens at an instinctual rather than a conscious level and I wonder if it isn't that unconsciousness that allows it to happen.

I believe that people should be informed this this backward walk over a cliff, this unconscious motivated self destruction, is what drives them to seek the protection of authoritarian rule and that caving to that impulse will create what they most fear.

There are so many things that a government of the people by the people and for the people could achieve but fear creates distrust.

I think the Message the Democrats should campaign on is to explain to conservative voters that fear overrules reason and is a path to self destruction. I think the hesitancy of telling people they are destroying themselves out of fear is something Democrats are doing in spades. They are afraid to tell voters the truth of how they are fucking themselves so we and they will always remain in the dark. Fear also makes liberals conservative.

It's a catch 22 How do you tell people a truth they do not want to know.

This is my opinion. What is yours?

 

[BoomerD]

Defend democracy…big order, but one worth fighting for.

Put a stop to illegal immigration. Start a proper guest worker program so the farmers can have the workers they need when they need them. Withhold 50% of the workers’ wages until they return to their home country. Disqualify any worker who has been charged with illegal entry for a set period. Second offense, permanent disqualification.

There are so many things that should be done…

 

[nickqt]

As a somewhat reluctant and donor to the Democratic Party I get the occasional canned survey to check off what I regard as the issues most important to me but what is important to me is never on the list of choices they offer. There is only one issue that is of real importance to me, all the others being secondary if the first is not achieved, and that is to preserve American Democracy, and that is something people here and around the world increasingly are voting to eliminate.

I believe that people everywhere are more and more interested in having a Daddy figure protect them from their own fears while failing to realize they are voting in the very people who will make them the very victims they hope to avoid becoming. This is a human response to become conservative in the face of fear. We have created a world full of threat. We are in the midst of climate change, a mass extinction event, threats of violence and war, even nuclear war, the robots are coming for our jobs as are those driven to mass emigration from their impoverished homelands. And all this happens at an instinctual rather than a conscious level and I wonder if it isn't that unconsciousness that allows it to happen.

I believe that people should be informed this this backward walk over a cliff, this unconscious motivated self destruction, is what drives them to seek the protection of authoritarian rule and that caving to that impulse will create what they most fear.

There are so many things that a government of the people by the people and for the people could achieve but fear creates distrust.

I think the Message the Democrats should campaign on is to explain to conservative voters that fear overrules reason and is a path to self destruction. I think the hesitancy of telling people they are destroying themselves out of fear is something Democrats are doing in spades. They are afraid to tell voters the truth of how they are fucking themselves so we and they will always remain in the dark. Fear also makes liberals conservative.

It's a catch 22 How do you tell people a truth they do not want to know.

This is my opinion. What is yours?

I think your opinion about "fear" would be turned around and repeated back to Democratic voters. And it wouldn't even be technically incorrect, although I think it's pretty clear that sane, non-authoritarians should be fearful of a Presidential candidate who continues saying things only an authoritarian says.

If you allow the intended audience - your political opponents- to legitimately hold up a mirror to deflect your criticism, then you didn't make any headway, and you just reinforced to them that they are correct. There is a strong correlation between the cognitive dissonance someone can encompass in the face of objective observable reality.

And you potentially make an "independent" or "undecided" voter think twice about voting for the Democratic candidate, since "BothSides" are trying to run on fear, assuming they are in on this conversation.

If I were the Presidential candidate, I would at every opportunity be saying "it's not enough that you vote for me, you need to get out and vote for your local, city, state, and House/Senate Democrats, because unlike Donald Trump, I am not planning on becoming a dictator and ruling over you, I want you to vote for people who can help represent you in the democratic process, with me. I need their help, and they also need your help".

Part of the reason this country is falling apart is the apathy of "Democratic voters" to turn out in elections other than the quadrennial Presidential election. If you want to build a solid stable of Democrats, get them into small government positions where they can demonstrate that they aren't for the abolishment of private property and a communist redistribution of land based on the wishes of George Soros and Ben Ghazi.

 

[K1052]

Put a stop to illegal immigration. Start a proper guest worker program so the farmers can have the workers they need when they need them. Withhold 50% of the workers’ wages until they return to their home country. Disqualify any worker who has been charged with illegal entry for a set period. Second offense, permanent disqualification.

Our labor needs go way beyond farm workers at this point especially in areas that have shrunk or aged but still have populations that need labor to fill many essential jobs. I don't think seasonal permits are sufficient for a lot of this anymore. Why won't Americans take those jobs? Because they can make more money and live in places with more opportunities instead and do so.

 

[Moonbeam]

I think your opinion about "fear" would be turned around and repeated back to Democratic voters.

Is that a fear or a simple statement of opinion?

And it wouldn't even be technically incorrect, although I think it's pretty clear that sane, non-authoritarians should be fearful of a Presidential candidate who continues saying things only an authoritarian says.

Why? How is it not irrational to feel fear because of what authoritarians say since they try mightily to sow such fear. You are simply allowing yourself to fall for their tactic. Ywy can't you simply see what they are doing without having a fear reaction to it. We create what we fear and if we fall for the notion that authoritarians are frightening we will become authoritarian in our reactions to them. Do you see this or am I wrong?

If you allow the intended audience - your political opponents- to legitimately hold up a mirror to deflect your criticism, then you didn't make any headway, and you just reinforced to them that they are correct. There is a strong correlation between the cognitive dissonance someone can encompass in the face of objective observable reality.

We are not trying to hold up a mirror to the authoritarian fear mongers, but to the people who unconsciously are vulnerable to it. Forewarned is forearmed, no?

And you potentially make an "independent" or "undecided" voter think twice about voting for the Democratic candidate, since "BothSides" are trying to run on fear, assuming they are in on this conversation.

But this is exactly what I said, Democrats fear telling people how it is and here you are suggesting not to do it because you fear the fear it will turn them off to Democrats too. That is exactly the catch 22 I was talking about.

If I were the Presidential candidate, I would at every opportunity be saying "it's not enough that you vote for me, you need to get out and vote for your local, city, state, and House/Senate Democrats, because unlike Donald Trump, I am not planning on becoming a dictator and ruling over you, I want you to vote for people who can help represent you in the democratic process, with me. I need their help, and they also need your help".

Part of the reason this country is falling apart is the apathy of "Democratic voters" to turn out in elections other than the quadrennial Presidential election. If you want to build a solid stable of Democrats, get them into small government positions where they can demonstrate that they aren't for the abolishment of private property and a communist redistribution of land based on the wishes of George Soros and Ben Ghazi.

I have no problem with this. The issue I see is that conservatives vote for authoritarians because they are too unconscious to see the danger. I suggest we tell people how easily they can be manipulated by educating them of the process and none of that will happen under authoritarian rule.

 

[Moonbeam]

Our labor needs go way beyond farm workers at this point especially in areas that have shrunk or aged but still have populations that need labor to fill many essential jobs. I don't think seasonal permits are sufficient for a lot of this anymore. Why won't Americans take those jobs? Because they can make more money and live in places with more opportunities instead and do so.

If AI begins to yield a world in which human labor becomes more and more supurflous, it seems to me we will have to socialize the profits from AI efficiencies. Private ownership of the profit from AI, I would think, will lead to greater and greater wealth inequity. This will happen if people remain puppets of mind manipulation and vote to give the wealth class legislative power.

Edit changed 'will not happen' to 'will happen'.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

This is my opinion. What is yours?

Inform the electorate, anyone who will listen, that their world is changing. Probably not for the better, but it's happening and there's a lot of inertia behind it. Do not be so quick to blame your neighbor, but be equally hesitant to trust.

Keep above the churn, as long as you can.

 

[nickqt]

Is that a fear or a simple statement of opinion?

Why? How is it not irrational to feel fear because of what authoritarians say since they try mightily to sow such fear. You are simply allowing yourself to fall for their tactic. Ywy can't you simply see what they are doing without having a fear reaction to it. We create what we fear and if we fall for the notion that authoritarians are frightening we will become authoritarian in our reactions to them. Do you see this or am I wrong?


We are not trying to hold up a mirror to the authoritarian fear mongers, but to the people who unconsciously are vulnerable to it. Forewarned is forearmed, no?

But this is exactly what I said, Democrats fear telling people how it is and here you are suggesting not to do it because you fear the fear it will turn them off to Democrats too. That is exactly the catch 22 I was talking about.

I have no problem with this. The issue I see is that conservatives vote for authoritarians because they are too unconscious to see the danger. I suggest we tell people how easily they can be manipulated by educating them of the process and none of that will happen under authoritarian rule.

You're right, I'm wrong. There's nothing to be afraid of if Trump wins. Guess I'll just stay at home and binge watch storage wars this election.

 

[Moonbeam]

You're right, I'm wrong. There's nothing to be afraid of if Trump wins. Guess I'll just stay at home and binge watch storage wars this election.

Not me. Now that I realize that your idea of being right is a matter to be decided by which of us can propose the stupider reaction to a Trump win, I will be jumping off a tall building if he does. I’m sure the terror I’ll be feeling will change the world.

 

[Moonbeam]

Inform the electorate, anyone who will listen, that their world is changing. Probably not for the better, but it's happening and there's a lot of inertia behind it. Do not be so quick to blame your neighbor, but be equally hesitant to trust.

Keep above the churn, as long as you can.

This makes sense to me but in my opinion the American people need to understand that the unconscious death wish self hate creates is the source of the authoritarian impulse sweeping the world.

Seems like if people are in an unconscious self destructive political phase it makes sense to enlighten them as to what is really happening.

But it will require the courage to actually see what is happening before you can inform others. Nobody seems to want to do that.

 

[Thump553]

We are on the cusp of the late stages of the campaign. At this point you need a simple clear point that resonates and you must hammer it home again and again. That's the most successful way to change minds and attract voters.

IMO Trump's greatest political strength is that he polls strongest on his ability to handle the economy. This belief is delusional-the cornerstone of his "plan" is to jack up tariffs. It's time for a series of ads (and have Walz explain it too) how tariffs actually work-they are in effect a sales tax THE CONSUMER PAYS on the targeted foreign goods. Trump's "plan" is going to have a devastating effect on the typical Walmart/Home Depot/Lowes etc. shoppers. I've seen estimates that it will cost each of us roughly $4.000 per year.

Simple ads over and over like can you afford to pay $4,000 a year to pay for this plan.

Secondarily point out that the Trump tax cuts were designed by him to end soon (2025 I think) on the vast majority of us while the billionaires' tax cuts are permanent.

It's time for our best, not our loudest.

 

[Moonbeam]

We are on the cusp of the late stages of the campaign. At this point you need a simple clear point that resonates and you must hammer it home again and again. That's the most successful way to change minds and attract voters.

IMO Trump's greatest political strength is that he polls strongest on his ability to handle the economy. This belief is delusional-the cornerstone of his "plan" is to jack up tariffs. It's time for a series of ads (and have Walz explain it too) how tariffs actually work-they are in effect a sales tax THE CONSUMER PAYS on the targeted foreign goods. Trump's "plan" is going to have a devastating effect on the typical Walmart/Home Depot/Lowes etc. shoppers. I've seen estimates that it will cost each of us roughly $4.000 per year.

Simple ads over and over like can you afford to pay $4,000 a year to pay for this plan.

Secondarily point out that the Trump tax cuts were designed by him to end soon (2025 I think) on the vast majority of us while the billionaires' tax cuts are permanent.

It's time for our best, not our loudest.

I wold call this the normal sensible way of approaching a campaign. But I believe that no sane unbiased person who does not have an economic interest motivation their opinion isn't already aware that the only economic interest Trump cares about are his own and others with economic interests the would gladly donate a portion of to Trump for favors. The rest of the Republican party not in it for their own financial or power needs are all willfully buying into the idea that Trump has their best needs at heart. And because they need to believe this facts face extreme difficulties in reaching them. They are easily provoked to vote against their own interests because they are being told that fact based economics is a lie and designed to get them. They are impervious to reality. Rather than spending time and effort on telling them what the truth is only, I think they need to be told why they will reject it, that they are scared out of their wits and looking for Daddy to take care of them and Daddy is a child molester, that people who claim to be winners do so because they know it will cause people who feel like losers to vote for them and the people making such claims know that.

People who run into the arms of authoritarians need to hear why they do that, in my opinion. Democrats need to know that to the extent fear controls them they will act the same. Always, when fear is present rage will be there right under the surface. To blame conservatives for being afraid is how we handle our fear of their fear. Facts are just facts. People are where fear blame and rage originate because we do not want to feel the inner forces at play.

 

[cytg111]

Whatever they're doing now keep doing it.

The campaign has been on fucking point... Whatever data they're looking at and decision making on those data points have been close to optimal so far. I suggest that none of us here can armchair that better.

I would suggest they *should* have started a covert kompromat collection campaign on talking heads on the right and just begun disintegrating them in an asymmetric low profile fashion.

 

[Thump553]

I wold call this the normal sensible way of approaching a campaign. But I believe that no sane unbiased person who does not have an economic interest motivation their opinion isn't already aware that the only economic interest Trump cares about are his own and others with economic interests the would gladly donate a portion of to Trump for favors. The rest of the Republican party not in it for their own financial or power needs are all willfully buying into the idea that Trump has their best needs at heart. And because they need to believe this facts face extreme difficulties in reaching them. They are easily provoked to vote against their own interests because they are being told that fact based economics is a lie and designed to get them. They are impervious to reality. Rather than spending time and effort on telling them what the truth is only, I think they need to be told why they will reject it, that they are scared out of their wits and looking for Daddy to take care of them and Daddy is a child molester, that people who claim to be winners do so because they know it will cause people who feel like losers to vote for them and the people making such claims know that.

People who run into the arms of authoritarians need to hear why they do that, in my opinion. Democrats need to know that to the extent fear controls them they will act the same. Always, when fear is present rage will be there right under the surface. To blame conservatives for being afraid is how we handle our fear of their fear. Facts are just facts. People are where fear blame and rage originate because we do not want to feel the inner forces at play.

Could be, but in the past I've run across a lot of "weak" Trump supporters. Generally they are elderly woman, like Trump's personality for the most part (they ignore his tweets and intentionally baiting statements) and believe he is concerned about him but is always picked on. I still believe a clear and simple thirty second explanation of tariffs with a concluding line along the lines "can you afford to immediately and permanently pay an extra $XXX to shop in order to support this concept of a plan. Can your kids afford it? Trump is NOT acting in your interest" would be highly effective.

Keep hitting on Project 2025 and Dobbs but I think the weakness of Trump's so-called strength is very ripe for attack.

PS: and they shouldn't even mention the vast droves of GOP leaders, etc. urging voting for Harris. This plays right into Trump's deep state arguments, which ARE his real strength.

 

[Moonbeam]

Could be, but in the past I've run across a lot of "weak" Trump supporters. Generally they are elderly woman, like Trump's personality for the most part (they ignore his tweets and intentionally baiting statements) and believe he is concerned about him but is always picked on. I still believe a clear and simple thirty second explanation of tariffs with a concluding line along the lines "can you afford to immediately and permanently pay an extra $XXX to shop in order to support this concept of a plan. Can your kids afford it? Trump is NOT acting in your interest" would be highly effective.

Keep hitting on Project 2025 and Dobbs but I think the weakness of Trump's so-called strength is very ripe for attack.

PS: and they shouldn't even mention the vast droves of GOP leaders, etc. urging voting for Harris. This plays right into Trump's deep state arguments, which ARE his real strength.

Well, I don't think any of the points you are making should be left out but I would differ with you a bit on what I'd say Trump's real strength is, namely his shameless ability to lie endlessly, effortlessly and with demonstrable apparent conviction, that he is a master con man and Golden Calf Savior. I would not personally challenge him on his home turf but rather aim to teach others the tools buy which I can see right through him. I was sure in 2016 that people did not see him as a person of tremendous capacity to spin up an altered reality that would win him the Presidency but in 2024 I see his capacity to maintain the illusion beginning to slip, not to his own diminished capacity, but because of fatigue. People can't eat dreams.

Without the psychological sophistication to resist psychological manipulation, if Trump fails to win by other means he will rise in some new form, perhaps an even more cunning narcissistic psychopath. My opinion.

 

[manly]

We are on the cusp of the late stages of the campaign. At this point you need a simple clear point that resonates and you must hammer it home again and again. That's the most successful way to change minds and attract voters.

IMO Trump's greatest political strength is that he polls strongest on his ability to handle the economy. This belief is delusional-the cornerstone of his "plan" is to jack up tariffs. It's time for a series of ads (and have Walz explain it too) how tariffs actually work-they are in effect a sales tax THE CONSUMER PAYS on the targeted foreign goods. Trump's "plan" is going to have a devastating effect on the typical Walmart/Home Depot/Lowes etc. shoppers. I've seen estimates that it will cost each of us roughly $4.000 per year.

Simple ads over and over like can you afford to pay $4,000 a year to pay for this plan.

Secondarily point out that the Trump tax cuts were designed by him to end soon (2025 I think) on the vast majority of us while the billionaires' tax cuts are permanent.

It's time for our best, not our loudest.

I don't think trying to reprogram mass delusion is a winning strategy. I'm not saying just give up on it, but trying to pound DJT on the economy clearly isn't working and isn't likely to change hearts and minds.*

On the issue of tariffs, people will believe what they believe and aren't going to accept the economists consensus on it. I don't disagree with your tactic, but I doubt it'll actually work either.

I actually liked Bill Clinton's DNC speech approach. Remind voters that in modern history, the GQP SUCKS at managing the economy. Approx 50M net jobs created under Dem presidents, to 1M under GOP (after Reagan if I remember the speech correctly). Even recognizing that POTUS doesn't actually create jobs, the overall record is pretty clear.

* Let's face reality. Despite the macroeconomic tailwinds, Bidenomics as a concept is an abject failure (through little fault of Joe Biden). I remember here in these forums about 10 months ago that respected members said inflation had been solved, and it would just take some months for people's vibes to change. Inflation has indeed been solved, but the vibes never really changed that much.

 

[hal2kilo]

I don't think trying to reprogram mass delusion is a winning strategy. I'm not saying just give up on it, but trying to pound DJT on the economy clearly isn't working and isn't likely to change hearts and minds.*

On the issue of tariffs, people will believe what they believe and aren't going to accept the economists consensus on it. I don't disagree with your tactic, but I doubt it'll actually work either.

I actually liked Bill Clinton's DNC speech approach. Remind voters that in modern history, the GQP SUCKS at managing the economy. Approx 50M net jobs created under Dem presidents, to 1M under GOP (after Reagan if I remember the speech correctly). Even recognizing that POTUS doesn't actually create jobs, the overall record is pretty clear.

* Let's face reality. Despite the macroeconomic tailwinds, Bidenomics as a concept is an abject failure (through little fault of Joe Biden). I remember here in these forums about 10 months ago that respected members said inflation had been solved, and it would just take some months for people's vibes to change. Inflation has indeed been solved, but the vibes never really changed that much.

Well, if you define inflation fixed when prices return to where they were, it has NEVER happened in my lifetime. So, fixing it is getting the inflation rate close to where the rate is now.

 

[Muse]

This. The whole thing but without a doubt watch from 5:22 where Michael Cohen is interviewed in person. Not to be missed.