Originally posted by: Stunt
Conjur...You think i troll?!...interesting, get someone to back you up on that and i'll agree
Even if you were a little more edgy, I'd be cool with that. There isn't anything wrong with a little comedy in politics is there?
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
I like Pat Buchanan, Ronald reagan, Jimmy Carter all in different ways...Usually the man is more important to me.. I've never voted democrat but like some of thier stuff like helping less fortunate, it's the Christain thing to do after all - Honestly I don't think there is a difference in todays politics - all are beholden to state growth and very large corporate instrests. What I'd like to see is more decentralized from of government, more confederate form.
Originally posted by: Stunt
So I've got conjur calling me a troll, and Tab thinks I should be more edgy...
interesting
Hey, it's all fun and games until someone gets hurt. Then it's hiliarous.
I'm slightly right.
Socially I take the "live and let live: principle, but I apply that in a very conservative to myself.
I am against foreign intervention in the way we do it. It is foolish to be isolationist in today's integrated world, but I think we do it absolutely wrong. If we have something to complain about we should use the U.N. as it was intended
I'm for cutting all forms of big business aid (I think its great oil companies pulled in 100 bil revenue with 10% profit, but if they profited so nicely why do they need tax cuts?).
I also think that government's role should be minimal in intervention in our lives, but it should still assist us where we need it (since we should be asking not what we can do for the government, but what it can do for us ). In that sense I am a liberal libertarian
I would favor cutting LOTS of useless programs, and limiting taxes greatly...BUT I do have a soft sides for a few key programs such as medicare and welfare support because my parents relied on these things when I was little and I truly beleive that while some people milk the system, there are many honest people who use it for what it was intended. If we need more stringent rules, or better means to determine who is lying and who isn't then by all means do that.
For things like illegal immigration....i would completely open the borders. Let all the Mexicans that want to come in have a spot. Let all the businesses higher them for minimum wage without having to hide it. This nation was built on immigrants, and we should not forget that
Basically I try to think I do it smart...because not one ideology is perfect, you have to mix and match to get that potpourri smell that you like
Socially I take the "live and let live: principle, but I apply that in a very conservative to myself.
I am against foreign intervention in the way we do it. It is foolish to be isolationist in today's integrated world, but I think we do it absolutely wrong. If we have something to complain about we should use the U.N. as it was intended
I'm for cutting all forms of big business aid (I think its great oil companies pulled in 100 bil revenue with 10% profit, but if they profited so nicely why do they need tax cuts?).
I also think that government's role should be minimal in intervention in our lives, but it should still assist us where we need it (since we should be asking not what we can do for the government, but what it can do for us
). In that sense I am a liberal libertarian I would favor cutting LOTS of useless programs, and limiting taxes greatly...BUT I do have a soft sides for a few key programs such as medicare and welfare support because my parents relied on these things when I was little and I truly beleive that while some people milk the system, there are many honest people who use it for what it was intended. If we need more stringent rules, or better means to determine who is lying and who isn't then by all means do that.
For things like illegal immigration....i would completely open the borders. Let all the Mexicans that want to come in have a spot. Let all the businesses higher them for minimum wage without having to hide it. This nation was built on immigrants, and we should not forget that
Basically I try to think I do it smart...because not one ideology is perfect, you have to mix and match to get that potpourri smell that you like
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
Not hardly, I think Bush is a horrible Presiedent and I consider myself a moderate .
That said I shouldn't have pigeonholed conjur with the likes of McGowen and Steeplerot though IMO he's not in the middle of the political spectrum. As a moderate myself I don't consider him another moderate.
Right now i consider myself left, I tend to not have the same position as those in control regardless where they are.
You didn't know? "Red Dawn" is THE authority on political spectrum placement for all forum members. And you will notice he most graciously elects to share this expert knowledge at any opportunity.
I disagree. At least conjur actually participated in the thread and provided some signal input. ntdz on the other provided noise, which is what you did. ntdz is the one trolling, as you did. I'm not impressed.
Having Bowfinger and Arsebanned defending you is a clear indicator you are NOWHERE near the middle of the political spectrum.
That would be like having Riprorin and Crimson and...well, you get the picture.
That would be like having Riprorin and Crimson and...well, you get the picture.
Oh yes, I should probably answer the poll.
Personally socially conservative, but public policy libertarian.
Fiscally conservative, both personal and public policy.
Foreign policy, neoconservative but fiscally so (blow them up and let them sort it out themselves)
So probablymoderate-right with occassional forays into the left.
Personally socially conservative, but public policy libertarian.
Fiscally conservative, both personal and public policy.
Foreign policy, neoconservative but fiscally so (blow them up and let them sort it out themselves)
So probablymoderate-right with occassional forays into the left.
:laugh:
As of right now 26% say they are "in the middle" Well, that is quite a riot. I guess I should claim that too because I don't think my opinions are extreme.:roll: There is no "middle", it is just something that the political talking heads have invented to give the left some cover since they(the left) allowed "liberals" to mean extreme.(yes, the right was successful in creating that perception
) But I repeat, there is no such thing as the "middle", it simple doesn't exist. You can take different sides on different issues but ideology doesn't permit "middle", unless you never take a position.Although, I have this suspicion that people want to think they are "mainstream" and "middle" so they don't have to defend their positions against the "other side", they simply reply with the standard "I'm in the middle" BS which sometimes backs the dogs off.
BTW, I'm right of center. No apologies for my ideology at all.
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
:laugh:
As of right now 26% say they are "in the middle" Well, that is quite a riot. I guess I should claim that too because I don't think my opinions are extreme.:roll: There is no "middle", it is just something that the political talking heads have invented to give the left some cover since they(the left) allowed "liberals" to mean extreme.(yes, the right was successful in creating that perception
Although, I have this suspicion that people want to think they are "mainstream" and "middle" so they don't have to defend their positions against the "other side", they simply reply with the standard "I'm in the middle" BS which sometimes backs the dogs off.
BTW, I'm right of center. No apologies for my ideology at all.
That makes no sense. Clearly if left and right ideas on a topic exist, a "middle" must exist as well. Very few issues are totally black and white (or left and right). Take the concept of welfare, for example. The socialists on the left simply want to hand out money and the assholes on the right don't want to spend a thin dime on the poor. A middle position might be spending money to improve the living standards and money earning potential of poor people, such as improved education for the kids and work-skills programs for the adults. Or how about gay marriage? Lefties might want to totally legalize gay marriage, while righties want gay couples to have no spousal rights at all. A moderate might want civil unions to be legalized, with many of the attending legal rights for gay couples. Or how about teaching evolution in the science classroom? A liberal might want to teach evolution as iron clad fact, with no discussion, while a conservative might want to teach whatever dumbass idea his religious leader thought up when he was drunk on ceremonial wine. A moderate position might be teaching evolution, but presenting the factual, scientific shortcomings and encouraging intelligent discussion of evolution as a theory.
No need to go on, I would imagine it's obvious that a middle ground often does exist. That doesn't mean it's the best for every issue, or any issue. It simply means that trying to make everything left or right is silly.
And to answer the question, I'm undetermined . On a lot of cultural and civil issues I'm pretty far "left" (gay marriage, abortion, civil liberties, religion, etc), but on a lot of economic issues (outsourcing, welfare, taxes, government spending, etc) I'm on the right (not that I feel kinship with the current crop of righties, I dont' know where the hell they went, but they aren't standing next to me). Anyways, I don't think that makes me a moderate, since I have few views that are between right and left, so I'll just say something about the stupidity of lables and leave it at that.
. On a lot of cultural and civil issues I'm pretty far "left" (gay marriage, abortion, civil liberties, religion, etc), but on a lot of economic issues (outsourcing, welfare, taxes, government spending, etc) I'm on the right (not that I feel kinship with the current crop of righties, I dont' know where the hell they went, but they aren't standing next to me). Anyways, I don't think that makes me a moderate, since I have few views that are between right and left, so I'll just say something about the stupidity of lables and leave it at that.Actually it makes perfect sense because some things aren't ideologically driven. The "middle" can only exist in the mind of one. You look to be suggesting that since compromise exists, a "middle" must exist, which simply isn't the case. Just because someone can come to a rational compromise on a particular social issue does not mean they are "middle", it just means they might be a bit pragmatic. Two sides meeting in the middle does not mean that those meeting are "middle", and it's the same with ideologies.Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
:laugh:
As of right now 26% say they are "in the middle" Well, that is quite a riot. I guess I should claim that too because I don't think my opinions are extreme.:roll: There is no "middle", it is just something that the political talking heads have invented to give the left some cover since they(the left) allowed "liberals" to mean extreme.(yes, the right was successful in creating that perception
Although, I have this suspicion that people want to think they are "mainstream" and "middle" so they don't have to defend their positions against the "other side", they simply reply with the standard "I'm in the middle" BS which sometimes backs the dogs off.
BTW, I'm right of center. No apologies for my ideology at all.
That makes no sense. Clearly if left and right ideas on a topic exist, a "middle" must exist as well. Very few issues are totally black and white (or left and right). Take the concept of welfare, for example. The socialists on the left simply want to hand out money and the assholes on the right don't want to spend a thin dime on the poor. A middle position might be spending money to improve the living standards and money earning potential of poor people, such as improved education for the kids and work-skills programs for the adults. Or how about gay marriage? Lefties might want to totally legalize gay marriage, while righties want gay couples to have no spousal rights at all. A moderate might want civil unions to be legalized, with many of the attending legal rights for gay couples. Or how about teaching evolution in the science classroom? A liberal might want to teach evolution as iron clad fact, with no discussion, while a conservative might want to teach whatever dumbass idea his religious leader thought up when he was drunk on ceremonial wine. A moderate position might be teaching evolution, but presenting the factual, scientific shortcomings and encouraging intelligent discussion of evolution as a theory.
No need to go on, I would imagine it's obvious that a middle ground often does exist. That doesn't mean it's the best for every issue, or any issue. It simply means that trying to make everything left or right is silly.
The issue here is not whether middle ground exists or not, it's whether people can be "middle" or an ideology can be considered "middle"? Let me ask you a question. What sort of ideological principles would a "middle" person have? There are plenty of principles and such for both right and left - so where are these principles of the "middle"?
I have never been able to get a good answer from people who think "middle" is an ideology lable or that people can be "middle". In their attempts to define it they wander off into the "moderate" discussion which then turns the discussion towards defining degrees of left or right.
All the lefties on this forum think they are in the "middle". Denial I suppose.
Well, maybe in Massachusetts.
That way -->> (you need binoculars to see that far..)
edit:
But i actually do not believe in political ideologies, i just want things to work, and i said im leaning right because left wing ideology is most destructive to people.
Lefties think that tolerating crap is the key to success, and they think that wealth is something that can be shared endlessly..
edit:
But i actually do not believe in political ideologies, i just want things to work, and i said im leaning right because left wing ideology is most destructive to people.
Lefties think that tolerating crap is the key to success, and they think that wealth is something that can be shared endlessly..
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
- 392
- 126
Why are you having so much trouble with the idea that many people do not have a dominant ideology? There is no single ideology. We each have a set of different ideologies in different areas. Political labels are merely a convenience to help group together people who often share similar sets of ideologies.
For example, you are easy to label. You are broadly conservative. That's fine. It means your set of ideologies is roughly similar to the sets of others who are "conservative". It is not that black and white for many of us. We aren't "confused", we aren't "undecided", we don't need to "make up our minds". We just don't fit those arbitrary labels.
There is a vast spectrum of political issues: social, fiscal, governmental, environmental, economic, religious, defense, law and order, science, guns, abortion, etc. It is silly to think that a single label like "conservative" or "liberal" can encapsulate everyone's beliefs across this spectrum. Some people may tend to lean the same way on most issues; others can be all over the board. We simply couldn't coin enough words to label every possible combination of idealogies. You need to accept that two sizes don't fit all, and that's not a bad thing.
I have no trouble with it because it simply isn't the truth. There is no way you can be "middle" except in your own mind. How you weigh bits and pieces of ideology would be very different from others so it simply doesn't exist.
BS, you do to fit. You just aren't willing to admit it, and the political talking heads encourage you to never admit it because you both seem to believe it makes you more influential.
I do understand that not everything falls neatly into line but for someone to claim they are "middle" or "moderate" is meaningless because they only exist in one's mind(meaning it is entirely subjective for those not able to follow along). If you would have read my post instead of going off on your little tirade maybe you would have realized that I understand that "some things aren't ideologically driven". But I guess in your "moderate" haste to defend your "middle" you overlooked what I've said.
So hotshot, what defines "middle" since we all have a pretty good idea of what left and right are? Sorry, but people willingly choose to label themselves "middle" - so what is it? My vote is "denial"
Keeping pushing and eventually you will be all by yourself over there on the extreme far right. As I have stated before I always considered myself moderate until some neo con told me I was a Liberal (he wasn't being kind). So I gladly accpet that.
I believe in being socially Liberal, economicly conservative (in the sense of investing in our own country and citizens futures first and foremost) and keeping spending within realistic reason (balanced budget). Pro Choice (not pro abortion), indifferent to gay marriage (but why not), slightly pro firearms regulations (against true assault weapons), pro death penalty (far beyond a reasonable doubt), for betterment and empoyerment of the poor and underprivledged (handup, not a handout), pro evolution (with all of it's strenghts and flaws explained), anti patriot act or anything that limits contitutional freedoms, and anti stupid presidents (as they should be able to set a postitive example for all citizens).
All in all I am an 'each to his own' kind of guy as well as 'Your rights end where mine begin', if that makes any sense. Does that sound like a Liberal? Btw I scored a -3, -3 on the political compass test and I am Agnostic.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
Maybe the better way is to concede some issues don't have a middle.
I can be either a Christian or a Moslem but not both. I can be one or the other but be understanding
the other. But when someone tells me I have to convert to exactly their religion, at that point someone and me are going to have some problems.
And no matter what camp you are in, you will find some idiots in that camp that are total idiots that will be unable to accept any middle ground.
The key is to aviod idiots and let the sensable middle find a compromise. Or get your gun and start killing.
When a sensable compromise no longer exists, idiots rule the day.
I can be either a Christian or a Moslem but not both. I can be one or the other but be understanding
the other. But when someone tells me I have to convert to exactly their religion, at that point someone and me are going to have some problems.
And no matter what camp you are in, you will find some idiots in that camp that are total idiots that will be unable to accept any middle ground.
The key is to aviod idiots and let the sensable middle find a compromise. Or get your gun and start killing.
When a sensable compromise no longer exists, idiots rule the day.
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
- 392
- 126
Yawn. You always were so full of yourself.
Sorry, your black-and-white labels simply, factually, obviously do not fit everyone. There is a vast spectrum of political issues: social, fiscal, governmental, environmental, economic, religious, defense, law and order, science, guns, abortion, etc. It is silly to think that a single label like "conservative" or "liberal" can encapsulate everyone's beliefs across this spectrum. Political ideology is like a multiple choice test with dozens of questions. Some people mostly answer "A", and they can be labeled "A's". Some people answer mostly "B", and they can be labeled "B's". But some people answer "A" to some, "B" to some, and "C" and "D" and "E". There isn't one simple label that matches this. This may not meet your demand for simplistic order, but that's too bad.
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