What Is Your Experience With Unions?

[IronWing]

Keep on spewing your ignorance. Meanwhile those of us who actually have facts on our side will keep laughing at you.

Meanwhile here is a big huge empty lot:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8948976,-85.6732684,779m/data=!3m1!1e3

Used to be hundreds of jobs in that lot, thousands of jobs that supported that lot, hundreds of thousands of dollars that lot used to bring to the local economy. Now they can't even sell the lot.

That lot is the future of America if you liberals get your way.

What facts have you presented? None. Zero. Nothing. You just keep licking the boot.

 

[Orignal Earl]

United Steelworkers Of America for years
The International Brotherhood of Boilermakers for years
Shop steward for seven years

 

[rudeguy]

It's always sad to see what's happened to Detroit but you know when it comes down to it - these workers did it to themselves by being greedy. I don't care if you were forced into it or if you were a small pea. If you reaped the benefits, you could fall right down with them too.

The only way for things to change here with ridiculous salaries causing ludicrous taxes is if the unions were disbanded. They would eat their young before cutting salaries to rates that the rest of the country gets (plus a little more for location). So much for protecting working conditions... it's all about the money.

Its only about the money.

The people who keep saying the unions are out to protect workers can't possibly believe that themselves. Now unions are simply legal extortion rackets. Hell look at the people who provided home daycare that had to pay to be part of a union they didn't want to be in. They got zero reward for the money and they legally had to pay the union dues.

 

[Exterous]

All those negative complaints for unions are only in the public sector and the private is a lot more like every other work place just with better work conditions and better pay.

I would disagree. Living where I do I know a lot of people in various trade\auto unions and the stories they tell are fucking insane. Even allowing for embellishment the stories of abusing the system and bragging about how they avoid work is shocking.

My wife has been in several different teacher's unions and the ones she has been in seem much less problematic (with two bordering on useless)

I think its a bad idea to lump all unions together. Just because teacher's unions in Chicago or Long Island are off their rocker is no reason to lump all teacher's unions together. There are good unions and bad unions and the issues arise when either side (Mgnt or union) get too much power and abuse their position of strength. We have plenty of examples of both happening right now

 

[nexus5rocks]

One thing I hate about non unionized places is that your pay is not based on the department you work in, but is based on your negotiation skills during the interview. With a union there will normally be some kind of step program and once everyone reaches the cap they make the same, with exceptions of people who might be grandfathered into a previous agreement. Though I guess this can differ from company to company.

I see negotiating your own salary as a positive, not a negative.
Having a capped/tiered salary based on tenure instead of merit stifles personal motivation and fosters complacency and laziness, which I guess is what unions want. They want their members to be reliant on the union instead of personal responsibility.

 

[rudeguy]

I would disagree. Living where I do I know a lot of people in various trade\auto unions and the stories they tell are fucking insane. Even allowing for embellishment the stories of abusing the system and bragging about how they avoid work is shocking.

My wife has been in several different teacher's unions and the ones she has been in seem much less problematic (with two bordering on useless)

I think its a bad idea to lump all unions together. Just because teacher's unions in Chicago or Long Island are off their rocker is no reason to lump all teacher's unions together. There are good unions and bad unions and the issues arise when either side (Mgnt or union) get too much power and abuse their position of strength. We have plenty of examples of both happening right now

Where you live needs to fall off and float away

Did you have any friends that got squashed during the American Axle or Delphi meltdowns?

 

[Kneedragger]

I would disagree. Living where I do I know a lot of people in various trade\auto unions and the stories they tell are fucking insane. Even allowing for embellishment the stories of abusing the system and bragging about how they avoid work is shocking.

My wife has been in several different teacher's unions and the ones she has been in seem much less problematic (with two bordering on useless)

I think its a bad idea to lump all unions together. Just because teacher's unions in Chicago or Long Island are off their rocker is no reason to lump all teacher's unions together. There are good unions and bad unions and the issues arise when either side (Mgnt or union) get too much power and abuse their position of strength. We have plenty of examples of both happening right now

Well yes I should have been a little more specific here, but I was still half a sleep when I posted that. I do realise Unions have different contracts based on region.

Union contracts are negotiated between company and employee union basically. So these rules that keep job security for lazy mofos was part of the agreement. Now contracts dont last forever and from what I've seen have a 3-6 year life span. So lets just say that the auto makers have had times when they could, to renegotiate that rule and make it easier to get rid of worthless people. We have seen new contracts come up for all kinds of Unions where something gets cut and while employees dont like it some times you have to give to get... Or sometimes you just have to give up something to bargain later..

 

[JMapleton]

You own your own labor and can be as selfish as you'd like selling it. Unions level the playing field between capital and labor.

And that's fine, and I'm not sure of the legalities behind it, but companies should be able to fire at will and without reason if they suspect someone is trying to form or encourage a union.

A company is private property, a company should not be forced to encourage their own extortion.

 

[JMapleton]

Until several years ago it was informally termed collective begging, as we really had no recourse if we did not agree with the offer from the employer. We could seek arbitration, but in the end it was up to them to fund it, or just do as they like. Public support campaigns were the only other alternative, (although active negotiations are prohibited from disclosure.)

We do have binding arbitration now, where if no agreement is reached the packages go to a independent arbiter who selects one package as a whole. It's all of this or all of that system deliberately designed to try to force agreement at the table or reasonable offers if it goes to arbitration. If you reach too far, you grant a win to the other party and they get their whole package.

As far as how we got the arbitration, it was done as a referendum amending our County Charter with about a 4 to 1 approval among the voters.

That's really a shame voters have done that. By passing laws giving unions that sort of leverage, voters are begging for higher taxes and a likely city/county/state bankruptcy in the future.

Municipalities being choked by pension spiking, overly generous healthcare benefits, and high salaries will bankrupt their way out of it. Remember something, the unions never win. It's not economically feasible for them to.

 

[Squisher]

It's a funny thing the US auto industry has seen a steady decline for thirty years, now in the last fifteen years and especially in the last five the US auto industry is doing quite well. What's different? The same union employees are making the cars, but now they're more reliable and are competitive when it comes to quality and features. I've never seen a union employee design a piece of shit and call it a car. Maybe the people that needed a fire lit under their asses weren't wearing blue collars, but the white ones that make all the decisions.

Now you can say a lot was done in the past where the unions and management made agreements which caused costs to balloon, but again this was something unions demanded and management allowed. If management hadn't been such namby pambys 40 years ago and started the ship on a new path then, you wouldn't have seen all the off shoring of work. They both are to blame.

 

[rudeguy]

It's a funny thing the US auto industry has seen a steady decline for thirty years, now in the last fifteen years and especially in the last five the US auto industry is doing quite well. What's different? The same union employees are making the cars, but now they're more reliable and are competitive when it comes to quality and features. I've never seen a union employee design a piece of shit and call it a car. Maybe the people that needed a fire lit under their asses weren't wearing blue collars, but the white ones that make all the decisions.

Now you can say a lot was done in the past where the unions and management made agreements which caused costs to balloon, but again this was something unions demanded and management allowed. If management hadn't been such namby pambys 40 years ago and started the ship on a new path then, you wouldn't have seen all the off shoring of work. They both are to blame.

No...no they aren't.

Look at how much production has moved to Canada and the South and Mexico.

No...the same employees are not making the cars.

 

[Kneedragger]

It's a funny thing the US auto industry has seen a steady decline for thirty years, now in the last fifteen years and especially in the last five the US auto industry is doing quite well. What's different? The same union employees are making the cars, but now they're more reliable and are competitive when it comes to quality and features. I've never seen a union employee design a piece of shit and call it a car. Maybe the people that needed a fire lit under their asses weren't wearing blue collars, but the white ones that make all the decisions.

Now you can say a lot was done in the past where the unions and management made agreements which caused costs to balloon, but again this was something unions demanded and management allowed. If management hadn't been such namby pambys 40 years ago and started the ship on a new path then, you wouldn't have seen all the off shoring of work. They both are to blame.

Dont forget the big CEOs a while ago were crying about money while giving each other fat bonuses..

 

[Ns1]

Edit. Wrong thread.

 

[JMapleton]

It's a funny thing the US auto industry has seen a steady decline for thirty years, now in the last fifteen years and especially in the last five the US auto industry is doing quite well. What's different? The same union employees are making the cars, but now they're more reliable and are competitive when it comes to quality and features. I've never seen a union employee design a piece of shit and call it a car. Maybe the people that needed a fire lit under their asses weren't wearing blue collars, but the white ones that make all the decisions.

Now you can say a lot was done in the past where the unions and management made agreements which caused costs to balloon, but again this was something unions demanded and management allowed. If management hadn't been such namby pambys 40 years ago and started the ship on a new path then, you wouldn't have seen all the off shoring of work. They both are to blame.

Increased labor costs forces US manufacturers to use lesser quality parts, reducing the reliability of their cars.

The major Asian brands are still vastly superior to the US auto brands. US brands have had a resurgence lately because innovative and nostalgic designs (post 2005 Mustang, post 2010 Camero, Challenger, Charger, etc,) that target the redneckish consumer base. This demographic will only last for so long. The future of the auto industry is in Asia. The Asian auto brands are forward thinking in both design and function. The US auto industry is still going to be confined to it's small rural/blue collar minded consumer base.

 

[JMapleton]

Dont forget the big CEOs a while ago were crying about money while giving each other fat bonuses..

Like unions cry about money while pension spiking and luxurious health benefits?

 

[ImpulsE69]

I've been on both sides. It really is dependent on the people involved. Trying to wholistically say unions are good or bad doesn't work. Just like trying to say wholistically that non-union is good or bad.

 

[soulcougher73]

Ive never been a part of one, but i recognize the importance of their history and what they accomplished. I think along they way they lost some of that. But i also fear if they were made illegal we'd eventually devolve back to the same slave labor crap before they showed up.

 

[soulcougher73]

Whenever union advocates face an anti-union person they also resort back to the same thing. They bring up things unions achieved 100 years ago. What does that have to do with now?

The pony express was useful 150 years ago, does that justify it's existence today?

You dont think the rich could buy..err i mean get laws changed to revert us back to slave labor with no paid holidays or safety regs etc? You want to see children working 16 hour day in dangerous conditions?

if given the opportunity they will fuck us in the ass. Hell why do you think we off shore so much business. Its so they can pull that crap in other countries.

 

[soulcougher73]

Scare tactics, nice. What politician would take away those things and remain elected? Oh wait, I know, you'll say the politicians will somehow stay in office because corporations would "buy" their way for them.

Someone doesnt know how effective lobbying is LOL

 

[soulcougher73]

I don't know if this was asked, but how are you ok with fellow workers who are lazy asses and get the same rewards you do? What's the incentive to work harder and get ahead, more reward? You just wait for the years to go by - another notch in the belt - more dollars in your pocket than years prior. How is that right?

That is the sign of a shitty run union. As others have stated her that were/are in unions they would fire those people. If your union is letting slackers stay in and do nothing then its a crappy ran union.

 

[soulcougher73]

When presented with facts, you liberals always go back to fairy tales, hyperbole and fear mongering.

Union political power destroyed the Big 3. Union political power bankrupted Detroit. Union political power force car makers and parts suppliers to move out of state and out of country.

Now if you would like to provide some actual facts, figures and examples, please do. Otherwise its just more of you puking out what Dear Leader spoon fed you. After all: "YOU DIDN'T BUILD THAT!"

Someone went full retard. You shouldnt do that. Doesnt look good on you.

 

[Kneedragger]

Like unions cry about money while pension spiking and luxurious health benefits?

Well you get a total package and then decide what goes to what. So those Cadillac benefits would be less if they decided to diperce it to another part of the package. So when health plans go up every year who pays for that? From what I understand Unions cover that with their pot of gold they are sitting on. Im not 100% on that though.. People always want more money whether you're in a Union or not. Everytime I go to a allocations meeting I hear guys complaining about needing more money. People need to learn how to live within their means.. Plus youre only worth what someone is willing to pay you so you can price yourself out of the market demanding more money..

I think comparing CEO bonus to the little man wanting a little more scratch not in the same boat..

 

[Fanatical Meat]

And that's fine, and I'm not sure of the legalities behind it, but companies should be able to fire at will and without reason if they suspect someone is trying to form or encourage a union.

A company is private property, a company should not be forced to encourage their own extortion.

Wow, just wow. So an employer can limit your speech (I'm not talking about racist or sexist speech). How about someone talking about a union off hours or using facebook?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

That's really a shame voters have done that. By passing laws giving unions that sort of leverage, voters are begging for higher taxes and a likely city/county/state bankruptcy in the future.

Municipalities being choked by pension spiking, overly generous healthcare benefits, and high salaries will bankrupt their way out of it. Remember something, the unions never win. It's not economically feasible for them to.

This is simply the state ir municipality accepting a poor agreement with poor terms.

 

[kranky]

My experience was unpleasant, but unions aren't automatically bad. I think there is a similarity to politics - when the same people are running something for a long time, it becomes corrupt.

The union I was in was not doing the best they could. They once decided to strike for more money when they already had a really nice thing going. They naively assumed the money was there for the taking, all they had to do was go on strike. Well, the strike lasted 5 months, they ended up taking the same exact offer that was on the table at the beginning (strike accomplished nothing). Then the company moved 75% of the work to a southern state. There were many officers in the union who didn't appear to do anything but collect a paycheck. When things were good, people didn't care that much. But after that long strike that got nothing in return, there were a lot more unhappy people. Not too long after all that work got moved, the union was disbanded.

We once needed network cables pulled and installed, would have been about a 4 hour job. It took just shy of two weeks because of all the different people who had to be involved. First guy came to drill holes in the drywall for the cable feed. Couple days later, two guys pull the cable. Couple days later, another guy comes to put connectors on the wires. Next week, another guy comes to patch the holes in the drywall. Then another guy comes to connect the cables to the machines (no, we were not allowed to do that because it was "electrician" work).

It takes reasonable people on both sides for a union to work as it should. The union should not defend people who are caught red-handed stealing for the 3rd time and insist on another written warning. The company should not try to fire someone because they didn't suck up enough to some egotistical blowhard.