what is wrong with Hugo Chaves?

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CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Pro-Bush people dislike him because he mocks Bush. He could save a million kittens from dying and they would still dislike him.
Anti-Bush people like him because he mocks Bush. He could kill a million kittens and they would still like him.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Pro-Bush people dislike him because he mocks Bush. He could save a million kittens from dying and they would still dislike him.
Anti-Bush people like him because he mocks Bush. He could kill a million kittens and they would still like him.
I dislike them both. They might appear opposite to the ideologically-fixated, but they're actually 2 sides of the same coin.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,770
6,770
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Pro-Bush people dislike him because he mocks Bush. He could save a million kittens from dying and they would still dislike him.
Anti-Bush people like him because he mocks Bush. He could kill a million kittens and they would still like him.
I dislike them both. They might appear opposite to the ideologically-fixated, but they're actually 2 sides of the same coin.

I guess then, if between them they saved 2 million kittens, you would still dislike them, right?

 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Originally posted by: Jmman
The thing that scares me is that I have family that lives there, and from talking to them, it seems as if people who disagree with Chavez are starting to "disappear". Reminds me of the Soviet Union or something. Don't get sucked in with his PR campaign about schools and such.

Proofs? We know how much hatred and how many lies the opposition has been spreading for years about Chavez. It did not prevent him from winning all elections, because people can compare those lies with the real changes brought by the Chavez administration that benefit the majority.
The best reason not to believe you is that Chavez has been very very kind with most of the militaries who participated in the coup against him. Any would-be dictator woud have used this to become a dictator. On the contrary, he behaved like the christian he really is and forgave almost everyone.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Pro-Bush people dislike him because he mocks Bush. He could save a million kittens from dying and they would still dislike him.
Anti-Bush people like him because he mocks Bush. He could kill a million kittens and they would still like him.
I dislike them both. They might appear opposite to the ideologically-fixated, but they're actually 2 sides of the same coin.
I guess then, if between them they saved 2 million kittens, you would still dislike them, right?
I'm more inclined to support spay-and-neuter programs.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
he really is kind of a split character...

On the one hand he moved to secure power for the masses in his country, taking it from a corrupted social elite. He has made some strides towards healthcare and education reforms (though not as much as he originally said he would), he nationalized the oil industry (and in so doing secured profits from it for the people instead of the .000001% previously benefiting), he backs humanitarian, equality, and social reforms not only within Venezuela but also in other nations including the US, he instigated land redistribution (again for the common man to rise against elitist oppression of previous generations),etc.

But then there's this whole election issue where he's basically making it possible for him to become a dictator instead of a democratic president. He's working against many civil freedoms and towards a VERY authoritarian government regime.

I can understand it in part, especially with America trying to topple him, but that doesn't make it right. I have no problem with his opposition to capitalism as it's run amok in the world, but that doesn't mean I support his lopsided socialist views. I think he's an underdog, the product of abuse and derision by the rest of the world for so many generations that he's got a chip on his shoulder. It's understandable I suppose.

My hope is that he succeeds in forming the Latin American coalition he's striving towards so that those nations can gain some measure of independence from America and the world bank. I hope once it's accomplished his successors will abandon the authoritarian (and perhaps some of the socialist) leanings.

While arguably he's made the lot of the common man better, it's not a vast improvement and it's been at the expense of the middle and upper classes, not all of whom were "elitists." One could make the argument that he's closer to a European-style welfare state socialist than he is a Marxist-style reactionary looking to spread the revolution by force (although he doesn't seem adverse to using petrodollars to buy influence). He's not nationalized assets (yet) which is another positive, although it doesn't seem like it would be out of character for him to do so in the future.

It's often hard to tell exactly how much Chavez's policies have improved/worsened things, since internal problems such as the coup and oil strike have distorted the economic picture. In sheer numbers terms, he did reverse a 28-year, 35% slide in per capita income, however since 1999 the economy has been flat through 2004. It's therefore IMHO reasonable to question whether different policies or a different leader might have improved the situation since the huge run-up in oil prices since then should have made possible an huge boon for Venezuela's citizens. However, this may be a moot point as the citizens there seem to believe he is on their side and thus willing to overlook a stagnant living standard, since compared to the corruption of the former ruling elite classes he is on their side (at least in his rhetoric).

 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Alchemize's link-

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3332

The editor of FP is Moises Naim, a rather prominent figure in the govt that the people of Venezuela voted out to install Chavez...

Which should clang a few alarm bells for anybody seeking unbiased sourcing on the issue....

Despite all the claims to the contrary, Chavez has not used the changes in govt to seize power. Which, it seems to me, indicates that he either isn't ready or has no intention of doing so, take your pick. He's sworn that he won't run for re-election, so I'll guess we get to see what happens, if the CIA doesn't stage another, more successful coup than last time...
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Pro-Bush people dislike him because he mocks Bush. He could save a million kittens from dying and they would still dislike him.
Anti-Bush people like him because he mocks Bush. He could kill a million kittens and they would still like him.

THERE ARE MORE THAN JUST TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE WITH TWO TYPES OF VIEWPOINTS MAN; ******
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Alchemize's link-

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3332

The editor of FP is Moises Naim, a rather prominent figure in the govt that the people of Venezuela voted out to install Chavez...

Which should clang a few alarm bells for anybody seeking unbiased sourcing on the issue....

Despite all the claims to the contrary, Chavez has not used the changes in govt to seize power. Which, it seems to me, indicates that he either isn't ready or has no intention of doing so, take your pick. He's sworn that he won't run for re-election, so I'll guess we get to see what happens, if the CIA doesn't stage another, more successful coup than last time...
There is no such thing as a unbiased source when it comes to political issues. Only idiots believe there is. Typically, these "idiots" use the claim of bias in order to discredit an educated, knowledgeable, and involved source in favor of an ignorant and ideological source. Facts that threaten an ideological power base are always condemned as heresy.

Chavez' changes in government have been HIGHLY questionable. The controversy surrounding his last election made the Diebold controversy pale in comparison. In short, if GW had done any of the same things that Chavez has done, you would be screaming bloody murder. That you don't reveals your own bias.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
He is a socialist, so he is a "dictator" even though he was elected by a wide margin.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
He is a paranoid socialist(replace this with right wing fanatic) and wants to keep power by finding a bogey man to redirect his peoples frustrations.

His country is a big player within the oil markets; yet he feels he is ignored.

EGO

Seems he has alot in common with Bush and Co

ZING! :thumbsup:
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: Looney
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
He is a paranoid socialist(replace this with right wing fanatic) and wants to keep power by finding a bogey man to redirect his peoples frustrations.

His country is a big player within the oil markets; yet he feels he is ignored.

EGO

Seems he has alot in common with Bush and Co

ZING! :thumbsup:

which is why it is quite odd sheehan and co march beside him...
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Alchemize's link-

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3332

The editor of FP is Moises Naim, a rather prominent figure in the govt that the people of Venezuela voted out to install Chavez...

Which should clang a few alarm bells for anybody seeking unbiased sourcing on the issue....

Despite all the claims to the contrary, Chavez has not used the changes in govt to seize power. Which, it seems to me, indicates that he either isn't ready or has no intention of doing so, take your pick. He's sworn that he won't run for re-election, so I'll guess we get to see what happens, if the CIA doesn't stage another, more successful coup than last time...
There is no such thing as a unbiased source when it comes to political issues. Only idiots believe there is. Typically, these "idiots" use the claim of bias in order to discredit an educated, knowledgeable, and involved source in favor of an ignorant and ideological source. Facts that threaten an ideological power base are always condemned as heresy.

Chavez' changes in government have been HIGHLY questionable. The controversy surrounding his last election made the Diebold controversy pale in comparison. In short, if GW had done any of the same things that Chavez has done, you would be screaming bloody murder. That you don't reveals your own bias.

Little fascist liar! Venezuela uses open source software in its voting machines. Even better: successful random verification of 45% of the vote proved it was an honest election. On the other hand, US elections' voting machines use closed-source software, controlled by companies that are close to Bush. Almost nothing gets verified, and when verified it is done in such a way that verification itself is a fraud.
One more proof that Vic the self-branded libertarian is indeed merely a capitalist full of hatred for those democrats who prefer to share the wealth, instead of letting the corrupt authoritarian capitalists and their puppet politicians keep most of it for themselves.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Alchemize's link-

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3332

The editor of FP is Moises Naim, a rather prominent figure in the govt that the people of Venezuela voted out to install Chavez...

Which should clang a few alarm bells for anybody seeking unbiased sourcing on the issue....

Despite all the claims to the contrary, Chavez has not used the changes in govt to seize power. Which, it seems to me, indicates that he either isn't ready or has no intention of doing so, take your pick. He's sworn that he won't run for re-election, so I'll guess we get to see what happens, if the CIA doesn't stage another, more successful coup than last time...
There is no such thing as a unbiased source when it comes to political issues. Only idiots believe there is. Typically, these "idiots" use the claim of bias in order to discredit an educated, knowledgeable, and involved source in favor of an ignorant and ideological source. Facts that threaten an ideological power base are always condemned as heresy.

Chavez' changes in government have been HIGHLY questionable. The controversy surrounding his last election made the Diebold controversy pale in comparison. In short, if GW had done any of the same things that Chavez has done, you would be screaming bloody murder. That you don't reveals your own bias.

Little fascist liar! Venezuela uses open source software in its voting machines. Even better: successful random verification of 45% of the vote proved it was an honest election. On the other hand, US elections' voting machines use closed-source software, controlled by companies that are close to Bush. Almost nothing gets verified, and when verified it is done in such a way that verification itself is a fraud.
One more proof that Vic the self-branded libertarian is indeed merely a capitalist full of hatred for those democrats who prefer to share the wealth, instead of letting the corrupt authoritarian capitalists and their puppet politicians keep most of it for themselves.

Oh someone call the WAAAHHbumlance!! Did I step on your little toes by telling the truth? STFU, dumbass, you don't even know what a fascist (edit: or a democrat, for that matter) is... :roll:

In the 2005 Venezuelan parliamentary elections, significant controversy regarding the actual secrecy of the individual votes cast caused the major opposing parties to boycott the election, leading to a large victory for Chavez' 5th Reich.

edit: It should also be noted that Chavez controls the Venezuelan CNE or National Electoral Council. You just gotta love these fools who think that "democracy" occurs only when the public votes the way they want them to.

edit2: "democrats who prefer to share the wealth" -- I found this line to be particularly hilarious. Your definition of "sharing" is when it's done at government gunpoint with the bulk of the proceeds going to General El Presidente in his big mansion... Oh yeah, no corruption there... :roll:
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: Jmman
The thing that scares me is that I have family that lives there, and from talking to them, it seems as if people who disagree with Chavez are starting to "disappear". Reminds me of the Soviet Union or something. Don't get sucked in with his PR campaign about schools and such.

He learns well from South Miami.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
During the 2004 petition drive to recall Chavez:
Again, the names of petition signers were posted publicly. The president of the Venezuelan Workers Confederation was quoted by the Associated Press as claiming that the Chávez government had begun firing petition signers from government ministries, the state oil company, the state water company, the Caracas Metro, and public hospitals and municipal governments controlled by Chávez's party. The Associated Press also quoted Venezuela's Health minister, Roger Capella, as justifying petition related layoffs by saying "all those who have signed to activate the recall referendum against President Chávez should be fired from the Health Ministry".
Oh yeah, Chavez is GREAT man... following the famous old-fashion plan to socialist wealth and power. Pretend to have a democracy while you have fired every single government employee who petitions or votes against you. As government grows to become the only employer (the definition of socialism), everyone votes for you... OR ELSE.

Viva la democracia!
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Interesting analysis of CIA propaganda:

By: Mark Weisbrot - TPMCafe.com

A response to the cover story in the latest (January/February 2006) Foreign Policy Magazine.

Thanks to Josh Eidelson for pointing out some of the flaws in Foreign Policy?s latest (January/February 2006) cover story, ?Hugo Boss: ?How Chavez is refashioning dictatorship for a democratic age.? The article is much worse than Eidelson describes it, as will be seen below. The idea that Venezuela is a dictatorship is absurd, as anyone who has been there in the last six years can attest to. All you have to do is go there, turn on the TV and listen to denunciations of the government on the biggest TV stations, pick up the biggest newspapers and see the same ? in fact the media plays a non-journalistic oppositional role in politics that would not be allowed in most European democracies. Even in the United States, the long-lapsed Fairness Doctrine would quickly be brought back, if our media ever got to one-tenth the level of partisan political activity exhibited by Venezuela?s major broadcast and print media, which make Fox news look impeccably ?fair and balanced? by comparison.



Let me correct one error in Eidelson?s description, which he may have gotten from the Foreign Policy article, before proceeding: the government of Venezuela has not been ?keeping public databases on citizens' votes.? All voting is by secret ballot in Venezuela, and there is no record anywhere of any individual?s vote. What he might be referring to is the names of people who signed a petition to recall President Chavez in 2004. These petitions are a matter of public record, as similar petitions generally are in the United States; and in fact not only the government, but Sumate, the U.S.-funded opposition group that organized the recall effort, also kept a record of these signers. A legislator subsequently made the names of signers public, causing considerable controversy.



Now for some of the mistakes in the Foreign Policy piece by Javier Corrales:



?Chavez is ?now approaching a decade in office.? [p.33] Hugo Chavez took office in February of 1999. I have never seen anyone round up to 10 from a number just under 7. Perhaps the subtitle of this article should have been ?Refashioning Arithmetic for an Innumerate Age.?



?the poor do not support him [Chavez] en masse.? [p.35] This can be refuted by any recent poll, as well as by opposition pollsters themselves. Chavez? recent approval ratings have ranged from 65 to 77 percent. Where does this support come from? The upper classes? Perhaps this is another arithmetic problem. Also, a look at the results of the August 2004 referendum, which Chavez won by 59-41 percent, shows one of the most polarized voting patterns in the hemisphere, with poor areas voting overwhelmingly for Chavez and the richer areas voting overwhelmingly against him.



?Chavez has failed to improve any meaningful measure of poverty, education, and equity.? [p.35] As I noted in a prior post (http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/11/3/154920/231): The official poverty rate now stands at 38.5 percent, but that counts only cash income. For example, if the United States were to abolish food stamps and Medicaid, poor people here would be much worse off. Similarly, the subsidized food and free health care now available in Venezuela have significantly increased living standards among the poor. More than 40 percent of the country buys subsidized food, and millions of poor people have access to free health care that was previously unavailable. If these are taken into account, the measured poverty rate would drop well below 30 percent.



The poverty rate when Chavez took office, in the first quarter of 1999, was 42.8 percent. So there is a meaningful measure of poverty reduction, especially if non-cash benefits are taken into account. Also, the government declared in October that 1.48 million Venezuelans have been taught to read as a result of a massive literacy drive that began in 2003. Although there is so far no independent verification of the number, even if it turned out to be significantly overestimated, there is no doubt that a very large number of Venezuelans (total population: 25 million) have learned to read under the program.



?Following the 2004 recall referendum, in which Chavez won 58 percent of the vote, the opposition fell into a coma, shocked not so much by the results as by the ease with which international observers condoned the Electoral Council?s flimsy audit of the results.? [p. 39] Actually, according to all news reports at the time, they were shocked by the results; they announced that the referendum was stolen, and most of the opposition continues to maintain this position. There was nothing ?flimsy? about the audit, and there is no more doubt about the results of this referendum than there is that Ronald Reagan beat Walter Mondale by a similar margin in 1984. I have explained this in a previous post http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/12/2/17334/7970 , and in a paper refuting alleged statistical evidence of fraud http://www.cepr.net/publications/venezuela_2004_09.pdf , and so will not belabor the point here. Also, the Carter Center and the OAS did not simply ?condone? an audit by the Venezuelan Electoral Council but were closely involved in the audit as observers and verified the results.



Corrales? attempt to raise doubts about the referendum result is particularly disturbing in light of recent events in Venezuela. Most of the opposition parties boycotted the Venezuelan Congressional elections three weeks ago, on December 4. ?We had a problem with the Venezuelan opposition, which assured us that they would not withdraw from the [electoral] process if certain conditions were met. These were met and despite this, they withdrew,? said Jose Miguel Insulza, head of the OAS, just this week.

The opposition?s primary argument for boycotting elections is that they cannot ?trust? the electoral process, based on the conspiracy theory, widely held by the opposition in Venezuela, that the recall referendum was stolen. (See http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/12/2/17334/7970 )

Thus, with their own polls showing that they would win about 30 percent of the Congress, they opted for a long-term strategy of destabilization ? to try to de-legitimize the government rather than participate in an open and transparent, democratic electoral process that was once again certified as such by international observers, this time including a 160-member team representing the European Union. Such has been the problem for several years: with the brief exception of the August 2004 referendum, wherein the opposition leadership temporarily agreed to play by the rules of democracy ? until they lost the vote -- they had previously tried to overthrow the government by means of several oil strikes (one particularly economically devastating in 2002-2003) and a military coup in April 2002, which was supported by the Bush Administration. The Bush Administration also appears to be at least tacitly supportive of the opposition leaders? decision this month to withdraw from electoral politics altogether. In its zeal to create an imaginary ?dictatorship? in Venezuela, the Foreign Policy article ignores this anti-democratic role of the opposition, supported by Washington. It is also worth noting that the opposition can pursue such tactics that would have no chance of success in most other democracies because it still controls most of the Venezuelan media.



The editors of Foreign Policy chimed in with a box [p.38] about Chavez accusing him of ?meddling in the internal politics of his neighbors? ? Bolivia, Brazil, Ecuador, Colombia, Nicaragua, and even Mexico. They neglect to mention that no evidence has yet surfaced for the allegations listed. Also, if Chavez is ?meddling? inside Brazil and Colombia, it seems odd that he has such good relations with both of their presidents, who are at opposite ends of the political spectrum. Perhaps they do not appreciate the ?threat? that this ?dictator? poses to their countries and the region.



There is little evidence that Venezuela today is less democratic than it has ever been, and in fact by most standard political science measures it is more democratic. Venezuela's main governance problem is not a weakening of democracy but a failure to improve the rule of law, a problem that it shares with the region. Contrary to the images conveyed by the Bush Administration and Foreign Policy magazine, the Venezuelan state is not an authoritarian or autocratic state but a weak state, including the executive branch. That is why the main victims of political repression in Venezuela in recent years have not been from the opposition ? even the leaders of the April 2002 coup against Chavez, who would have been convicted, imprisoned, and possibly executed in the United States, are almost all still at large. The real victims of political repression are pro-Chavez peasants organizing for land reform in the countryside. Many have been killed, often by hired assassins, sometimes for simply asserting their rights under the law. Impunity is rampant in Venezuela: the state at many levels does not have the capacity to enforce the law, often even against murderers.



In any case there is much more in this article that is inaccurate, grossly exaggerated, or misleading ? in fact that describes most of the piece. But rather than wasting more space on this, readers may want to write to the editors of Foreign Policy -- fpletters@CarnegieEndowment.org -- and ask them why they printed something like this. And rather than just printing a 300-word letter, will they ever allow the publication of an article on Venezuela from a different point of view, one that better reflects not only the view of most Venezuelans, but most of this hemisphere? This is unlikely, but it is worth asking them why such an article would be forbidden. It would presumably have to be of much higher quality than the present one and more accurate, not necessarily pro-Chavez, but something that respects democracy, even when poor people repeatedly elect a government that the U.S. State Department doesn?t like.

Mark Weisbrot is co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research (www.cepr.net) in Washington, DC.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,770
6,770
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Pro-Bush people dislike him because he mocks Bush. He could save a million kittens from dying and they would still dislike him.
Anti-Bush people like him because he mocks Bush. He could kill a million kittens and they would still like him.
I dislike them both. They might appear opposite to the ideologically-fixated, but they're actually 2 sides of the same coin.
I guess then, if between them they saved 2 million kittens, you would still dislike them, right?
I'm more inclined to support spay-and-neuter programs.

Way to sterilize your answer.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Pro-Bush people dislike him because he mocks Bush. He could save a million kittens from dying and they would still dislike him.
Anti-Bush people like him because he mocks Bush. He could kill a million kittens and they would still like him.
I dislike them both. They might appear opposite to the ideologically-fixated, but they're actually 2 sides of the same coin.
I guess then, if between them they saved 2 million kittens, you would still dislike them, right?
I'm more inclined to support spay-and-neuter programs.
Way to sterilize your answer.
:laugh:
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Votingisanillusion, no one can take a single word you post seriously when you don't know the difference between libertarianism (aka "neoliberalism" to its detractors, even though libertarianism is the original form of Jeffersonian liberalism) and fascism? How can you be taken seriously when you don't know that fascism is far more closely related to socialism than it is to libertarianism? Or when you mistake crony capitalism for fascism?

It's a school night, child... don't stay up too late.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Vic's right, to a point. OTOH, Chavez is currently the target of a wide range of attacks form the Rightwing, many of them rather dishonest, like the one described here-

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1656

Unedited quotes often convey a whole different message than ones that have been massaged rather heavily to discredit the source.

And I'd encourage anybody who's actually interested to read some of the articles from that source- it's the other side of the coin from Foreignpolicy mag... With the truth probably lying somewhere in between.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Votingisanillusion, no one can take a single word you post seriously when you don't know the difference between libertarianism (aka "neoliberalism" to its detractors, even though libertarianism is the original form of Jeffersonian liberalism) and fascism? How can you be taken seriously when you don't know that fascism is far more closely related to socialism than it is to libertarianism? Or when you mistake crony capitalism for fascism?

It's a school night, child... don't stay up too late.

In the big topic about libertarianism, you and several of your friends espressed your love of the capitalist market (capitalist structures, like corporations, are authoritarian, not democratic) and your absolute contempt for democracy. Enough to be considered a fascist by a democrat like me. I am not a socialist like Chavez, but I do not condemn him because he behaves like a democrat, in spite of the lies of the CIA that you and your friends enjoy repeating like good children.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Vic's right, to a point. OTOH, Chavez is currently the target of a wide range of attacks form the Rightwing, many of them rather dishonest, like the one described here-

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1656

Unedited quotes often convey a whole different message than ones that have been massaged rather heavily to discredit the source.

And I'd encourage anybody who's actually interested to read some of the articles from that source- it's the other side of the coin from Foreignpolicy mag... With the truth probably lying somewhere in between.

The truth does not simply lie in between. Life would be so simple. There are many sources of information and disinformation. First you must eliminate the dishonest media. Then you must try to find the most intelligent ones among the honest ones.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
In the big topic about libertarianism, you and several of your friends espressed your love of the capitalist market (capitalist structures, like corporations, are authoritarian, not democratic) and your absolute contempt for democracy. Enough to be considered a fascist by a democrat like me. I am not a socialist like Chavez, but I do not condemn him because he behaves like a democrat, in spite of the lies of the CIA that you and your friends enjoy repeating like good children.
Free markets are slavery. LOL! You do Orwell proud.

Remember my last post in that thread?

People usually mistake their own shortcomings for those of society and then want to fix society because they don't know how to fix themselves.

That's you, baby. You're gonna fix the world they way you think it should be fixed whether it wants it or not. 'Cause that's democracy, right? ;)