Boberfett - That's fine. If you don't want to publicly acknowledge that you'll pay for those people so that they can pay for themselves. But in the end, you'll still end up paying for them through one way or the other whether you like it or not.
<< Pull your head out of your ass, Ameesh. The United States has 2-3 times the poverty rate of most European nations. >>
but they have 3 times the unemployment
are we talking about relative poverty
Linflas
Lifer
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<< i agree, this is also why i think unions are bad. once inflation kicks in they can't afford what they usually can and they gripe, ask for raises and drive costs of production even higher. >>
Unions are not necessarily bad. It is only when their rights take precedence over an employers rights that they become bad. Unions are actually a very good balance to business when neither side has the upper hand. I live in a right to work state and many people think that means no unions. What it actually means is that I cannot be denied employment just because I do not belong to a union. Sadly what has happened with the union movement is that it bought into the socialist movement which is not good for workers or unions.
<< Unions are not necessarily bad. It is only when their rights take precedence over an employers rights that they become bad. Unions are actually a very good balance to business when neither side has the upper hand. I live in a right to work state and many people think that means no unions. What it actually means is that I cannot be denied employment just because I do not belong to a union. Sadly what has happened with the union movement is that it bought into the socialist movement which is not good for workers or unions. >>
well said.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
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Where would the paper pushers be without the ditch diggers? The only difference is that they're allowed more opportunities than the ditch digger.
Paper pushers need ditch diggers but the only difference is not only more opportunities. Both of my parents are medical doctors and totally would have supported myself and two brothers if we wanted to do that, but we don't. Why? Cause its too much bloody work and stress. The main thing differentiating ditch diggers with paper pushers is ambition and long term dedication to hard work.
Many of the rich people in this world inherited their wealth. Virtually all of the richest made it themselves. Other than the occasional profession that seems to nearly require connections from day one (look at all the kid actors whose parents were in show business for instance) a lot of people in this society can do what they want if they have the drive.
Its trickier if you come from a weaker financial background but most people can pull themselves up a class if they want (poverty -> middle, or middle to upper, or even sometimes poverty to upper).
Paper pushers need ditch diggers but the only difference is not only more opportunities. Both of my parents are medical doctors and totally would have supported myself and two brothers if we wanted to do that, but we don't. Why? Cause its too much bloody work and stress. The main thing differentiating ditch diggers with paper pushers is ambition and long term dedication to hard work.
Many of the rich people in this world inherited their wealth. Virtually all of the richest made it themselves. Other than the occasional profession that seems to nearly require connections from day one (look at all the kid actors whose parents were in show business for instance) a lot of people in this society can do what they want if they have the drive.
Its trickier if you come from a weaker financial background but most people can pull themselves up a class if they want (poverty -> middle, or middle to upper, or even sometimes poverty to upper).
Mwilding - Yellowperil - If you want to live in a communist society go to Cuba and / or Russia and see what its like when everyone lives in equal squalor.
I don't know about Cuba, but I do have initmate connections with some former Russians. Ask them if they don't long for some of the old ways of their home country since being in the US. Anyone with half a brain knows that there are tradeoffs with any system.
In Russia, it used to be, if you broke your arm or had a baby, you received time off from work without having to worry about competition and losing your job. There was no need for a family leave act or discrimination lawsuits. There was publicly funded daycare. Everyone could work and both women and men were asked to work. You could ride the public transportation around for one low price. You had an apartment and were given a job by the government. Both women and men had education about the arts and sciences.
I asked my friend if he had ever been hungry in Russia. He came from an average family with no abudent material wealth and answered, "What do you mean? Like I got home from university late and couldn't get a meal?" I answered, "No. Like you didn't have any money to buy food and no place to get food." He answered, "No, that didn't happen over there." Yet, here in the US, there are cases where families are turned away for food stamps because they make $100 over the minimum poverty amount and don't qualify. They have to go hungry because no one knows about their situation and the government won't help them.
The US instigated alot of propaganda about how bad it was over there. Yet, at the same time, if you really talk to people about it, there are definite tradeoffs which everyone can see. Now they have capitalism, but it's done nothing but destroyed many people's former standard of living, cut their life expectancies, cut their birth rates, and made them go hungry. Many people are much worse off than before. Naturally, they come to the US and are relieved today, because there is no other alternative. But it did not used to be so.
I don't think anybody can say either system is better or worse. We've had our depressions and boom and bust cycles and stagflation which have been no better. Right now, we're coming off a high time. Many people alive don't know about the "bad" times. Look at Japan right now. Can anyone really say that's a shining moment for capitalism? People don't trust their money in the banks, unemployment is much higher than it used to be, and no matter how low they go on the tax rates, they can't escape. People aren't getting married or having children and they can't be sure of their futures. They're teetering on the edge and if they go over, the whole world is screwed. We need to correct the problems in our system since we're so interested in implementing it around the world because otherwise we're just setting ourselves up for failure and conflict.
I don't know about Cuba, but I do have initmate connections with some former Russians. Ask them if they don't long for some of the old ways of their home country since being in the US. Anyone with half a brain knows that there are tradeoffs with any system.
In Russia, it used to be, if you broke your arm or had a baby, you received time off from work without having to worry about competition and losing your job. There was no need for a family leave act or discrimination lawsuits. There was publicly funded daycare. Everyone could work and both women and men were asked to work. You could ride the public transportation around for one low price. You had an apartment and were given a job by the government. Both women and men had education about the arts and sciences.
I asked my friend if he had ever been hungry in Russia. He came from an average family with no abudent material wealth and answered, "What do you mean? Like I got home from university late and couldn't get a meal?" I answered, "No. Like you didn't have any money to buy food and no place to get food." He answered, "No, that didn't happen over there." Yet, here in the US, there are cases where families are turned away for food stamps because they make $100 over the minimum poverty amount and don't qualify. They have to go hungry because no one knows about their situation and the government won't help them.
The US instigated alot of propaganda about how bad it was over there. Yet, at the same time, if you really talk to people about it, there are definite tradeoffs which everyone can see. Now they have capitalism, but it's done nothing but destroyed many people's former standard of living, cut their life expectancies, cut their birth rates, and made them go hungry. Many people are much worse off than before. Naturally, they come to the US and are relieved today, because there is no other alternative. But it did not used to be so.
I don't think anybody can say either system is better or worse. We've had our depressions and boom and bust cycles and stagflation which have been no better. Right now, we're coming off a high time. Many people alive don't know about the "bad" times. Look at Japan right now. Can anyone really say that's a shining moment for capitalism? People don't trust their money in the banks, unemployment is much higher than it used to be, and no matter how low they go on the tax rates, they can't escape. People aren't getting married or having children and they can't be sure of their futures. They're teetering on the edge and if they go over, the whole world is screwed. We need to correct the problems in our system since we're so interested in implementing it around the world because otherwise we're just setting ourselves up for failure and conflict.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
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shifrbv
My problem with that old russian system or what you see now in Cuba (was there a couple months back) is that there isn't always much motivation to work as hard as you could or should and so productivity goes down. So nobody starved - thats excellent, but on the same token I bet people couldn't go to the movies much or go buy a stereo on a whim, which is something many people in the US can do.
I don't know how current Cuba compares to back-then Russia but now a massive number of the cars are from the 50's and they look like they've got a million miles on them. Although medicare is excellent down there and I doubt many people are starving many of them live in fairly nasty housing and regardless of effort put in its impossible for many of them to ever have much money or go on vacation or whatever else. I remember seeing a few toyota echos down there (they have a different name) and thinking that their owners must be pretty damn well off.
My problem with that old russian system or what you see now in Cuba (was there a couple months back) is that there isn't always much motivation to work as hard as you could or should and so productivity goes down. So nobody starved - thats excellent, but on the same token I bet people couldn't go to the movies much or go buy a stereo on a whim, which is something many people in the US can do.
I don't know how current Cuba compares to back-then Russia but now a massive number of the cars are from the 50's and they look like they've got a million miles on them. Although medicare is excellent down there and I doubt many people are starving many of them live in fairly nasty housing and regardless of effort put in its impossible for many of them to ever have much money or go on vacation or whatever else. I remember seeing a few toyota echos down there (they have a different name) and thinking that their owners must be pretty damn well off.
Linflas
Lifer
- Jan 30, 2001
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shifrbv You ever see pictures of these apartments? My mudroom is larger than the kitchen in those places. You really need to look at some pictures of the depressing old style soviet apartment blocks to appreciate that being guaranteed a living by the state is not necessarily a good thing.
A point on unions: they have 'scaled' pay, so if a contractor takes a state job he has to pay 'scale'. Do you think he is going to hire somme 'hack' and then pay him top-dollar, worrying that he may have to re-do the work because it was done incorrectly the first time??
My argument is not that there shouldn't be a minimum wage. A baseline standard which protects those with little bargaining power is good. Obviously, the federal minimum wage is not intended to provide a worker with enough money to provide for a family of five. It was never meant to.
Wages are determined by market demand and pricing. Obviously, if Silicon Valley has a high cost of living, and a restaurant has enough income, they can pay $15 to a dishwasher if that's the going rate for one, and it's an essential position for the operation. However, if the market price for a dishwasher is $8/hr, and the government demands that the restaurant pay $15/hr -- they won't, or they'll hire half as many. So, instead of John and Mike having jobs as dishwashers, only Mike gets the job, and John is out of work. Multiply that by the number of businesses so affected, and you have a nice little unemployment boost. Oh, but look at the success of Mike! Myopic.
Wages are determined by market demand and pricing. Obviously, if Silicon Valley has a high cost of living, and a restaurant has enough income, they can pay $15 to a dishwasher if that's the going rate for one, and it's an essential position for the operation. However, if the market price for a dishwasher is $8/hr, and the government demands that the restaurant pay $15/hr -- they won't, or they'll hire half as many. So, instead of John and Mike having jobs as dishwashers, only Mike gets the job, and John is out of work. Multiply that by the number of businesses so affected, and you have a nice little unemployment boost. Oh, but look at the success of Mike! Myopic.
Skoorb - My problem with that old russian system or what you see now in Cuba (was there a couple months back) is that there isn't always much motivation to work as hard as you could or should and so productivity goes down.
I think this is a big misconception. When I met my friend from Russia, I had all these nasty stereotypes that I was thinking of. The US focuses on "evil Commies", so I could only think the worst. But as I got to know more about him and what it was like for him growing up over there, I was amazed at some of the things which I didn't know about Russia.
Like for instance, the company his dad worked for over there would give away trips to a resort the company owned on the Black Sea (similar to us going to Florida or Cancun) as rewards for exceptional employees. This would be rotated around so that eventually, almost all the employees could have a chance to go. Not exactly a "communistic" idea, but yet it was pretty common at many of the workplaces there.
You talk about them not having access to any of the "media" that we have in the US. Yet, he knew so many of the rock songs that we have over here. Even stuff from the 70's like Supertramp, the Who, etc., supposedly when Russia was behind the "Iron Curtain". He had seen US movies and even US commercials and some US television shows were played. He knew about the "California Raisins" and about magazines like "Playboy".
His family owned a summer cottage, like most of the families over there, called a "dacha" which they would go to for their summer vacations and grow their own fruit trees, vineyards, and do their own fishihg. They could stay and relax there for their summer vacations.
When I heard about this, I was surprised. Many US families can't even think about having someplace in the country to go for their vacations. Especially people in the inner cities. Yet, here they were, average, inner city people, and they had this. Why, because the government owned much of the land and it came cheap. And they were listening to US rock songs and watching the "California Raisins" on TV. Not what I expected, either.
Of course, it did matter where you were in Russia. Many villages were behind the times and people were trapped because they couldn't move about. This was hard. And has only become harder for villagers with the onset of capitalism because they still can't move about. But for people like him, growing up in one of the larger cities, their urban life was not nearly as bad as some of the urban life in the US. They certainly weren't having race riots and dodging hunger (homeless people) like over here.
But they have all that nowadays since capitalism has come to town. People being killed for their apartments in Moscow, food prices skyrocketing, no jobs, significant drop in college attendance because no one can afford to go, huge increase in crime, people selling their kids organs. Some people have become phenominally rich while others have becomes so much worse off.
It's all a tradeoff.
Linflas - I know that the apartments were small, but that's typical for Europe. When I was in Paris, I stayed at a "luxury" hotel in which my room was so small I could barely open the bathroom door and get inside. And I am a smaller person. A larger, heavier American would have had much difficulty. And this was Paris. I know alot of Americans like "bigger" but I'm not one of them, so it really didn't bother me. I've lived in small apartments in the US for so long, I don't really care for large spaces. I prefer "cozy" instead of "spacious". That's just me. In fact, the house I have now only had 1500 SF and I don't even use the upstairs. Haven't been up there for weeks cause I don't really need it.
I think this is a big misconception. When I met my friend from Russia, I had all these nasty stereotypes that I was thinking of. The US focuses on "evil Commies", so I could only think the worst. But as I got to know more about him and what it was like for him growing up over there, I was amazed at some of the things which I didn't know about Russia.
Like for instance, the company his dad worked for over there would give away trips to a resort the company owned on the Black Sea (similar to us going to Florida or Cancun) as rewards for exceptional employees. This would be rotated around so that eventually, almost all the employees could have a chance to go. Not exactly a "communistic" idea, but yet it was pretty common at many of the workplaces there.
You talk about them not having access to any of the "media" that we have in the US. Yet, he knew so many of the rock songs that we have over here. Even stuff from the 70's like Supertramp, the Who, etc., supposedly when Russia was behind the "Iron Curtain". He had seen US movies and even US commercials and some US television shows were played. He knew about the "California Raisins" and about magazines like "Playboy".
His family owned a summer cottage, like most of the families over there, called a "dacha" which they would go to for their summer vacations and grow their own fruit trees, vineyards, and do their own fishihg. They could stay and relax there for their summer vacations.
When I heard about this, I was surprised. Many US families can't even think about having someplace in the country to go for their vacations. Especially people in the inner cities. Yet, here they were, average, inner city people, and they had this. Why, because the government owned much of the land and it came cheap. And they were listening to US rock songs and watching the "California Raisins" on TV. Not what I expected, either.
Of course, it did matter where you were in Russia. Many villages were behind the times and people were trapped because they couldn't move about. This was hard. And has only become harder for villagers with the onset of capitalism because they still can't move about. But for people like him, growing up in one of the larger cities, their urban life was not nearly as bad as some of the urban life in the US. They certainly weren't having race riots and dodging hunger (homeless people) like over here.
But they have all that nowadays since capitalism has come to town. People being killed for their apartments in Moscow, food prices skyrocketing, no jobs, significant drop in college attendance because no one can afford to go, huge increase in crime, people selling their kids organs. Some people have become phenominally rich while others have becomes so much worse off.
It's all a tradeoff.
Linflas - I know that the apartments were small, but that's typical for Europe. When I was in Paris, I stayed at a "luxury" hotel in which my room was so small I could barely open the bathroom door and get inside. And I am a smaller person. A larger, heavier American would have had much difficulty. And this was Paris. I know alot of Americans like "bigger" but I'm not one of them, so it really didn't bother me. I've lived in small apartments in the US for so long, I don't really care for large spaces. I prefer "cozy" instead of "spacious". That's just me. In fact, the house I have now only had 1500 SF and I don't even use the upstairs. Haven't been up there for weeks cause I don't really need it.
Wages are determined by market demand and pricing. Obviously, if Silicon Valley has a high cost of living, and a restaurant has enough income, they can pay $15 to a dishwasher if that's the going rate for one, and it's an essential position for the operation.
If this is the case, then why aren't the dishwashing jobs in silicon valley already $15??
So, instead of John and Mike having jobs as dishwashers, only Mike gets the job, and John is out of work. Multiply that by the number of businesses so affected, and you have a nice little unemployment boost. Oh, but look at the success of Mike! Myopic.
Then why has the US seen benifits every time the minimum wage is increased. Every time there is a push for an increase in the minimum wage, republicans are up in arms saying how this will lead to less jobs and the whatnot. Every time it never happens.
Anyone else find it disturbing that, for this economic system to thrive, there needs to be unemployment??
If this is the case, then why aren't the dishwashing jobs in silicon valley already $15??
So, instead of John and Mike having jobs as dishwashers, only Mike gets the job, and John is out of work. Multiply that by the number of businesses so affected, and you have a nice little unemployment boost. Oh, but look at the success of Mike! Myopic.
Then why has the US seen benifits every time the minimum wage is increased. Every time there is a push for an increase in the minimum wage, republicans are up in arms saying how this will lead to less jobs and the whatnot. Every time it never happens.
Anyone else find it disturbing that, for this economic system to thrive, there needs to be unemployment??
<< Anyone else find it disturbing that, for this economic system to thrive, there needs to be unemployment?? >>
no, it holds inflation in check... i'll explain why.
in the case of wages, when there is unemployment(and plenty of job applicants ready to take your job) no one will be asking for pay raises because they will fear for their job.
that is a real real simple way of putting it....
<< How does capitalism require unemployment in order to be succesful?
Marty >>
The unemployed seem to discipline the workforce. If it is to low, workers will make wage demands that will either cut into profits so that any future investment would be unlikely, or usually this cut into profits will be passed onto consumers that generates inflation. Unemployment is not the failure of capitalism; it is the necessary driving force that facilitates stable growth.
I have half an hour til I leave, so I'll try to ramble less (if that's possible).
First of all, I am not saying people should earn the same amount of money. I'm saying there should be balance between equity and equality. Life is full of multivariate analyses. The real world isn't computer science, so please do not try to attribute single causal factors to every phenomenon. What I mean is that many poor people do not end up poor because they are lazy. Yes, there are some, and it is difficult to go case-by-case and identify who, but the fact is that we should not stigmatize people who became poor the "legitimate" way, by factors outside their control. The living wage principle is simply that you get an honest day's pay for an honest day's work. You should not have to work your ass off and still not be able to make ends meet. If you put in your time, you should be able to support your family to subsist with health. This principle is not meant to exact revenge on the rich. It is meant for working families to be able to subsist across America.
351Cleveland - the figures you listed ($16,660) was a sum several years back for a family of four, not a single individual. Yes, an individual can live comfortably with $16,660, but not four individuals living together.
Wedesdo - it's people like yellowpee who give liberals a bad name
That's good! Did you think of that yourself?
Mwilding - I did mention in my first post that prices would have to increase. And I am aware that prices would increase for everyone, including the poor. However, the differential between income and cost of living for the impoverished would still be greater than if no income raise occurred at all. This is because the costs of wage increases would be spread out across all members of society (particularly those who consume more goods/services).
crzyc - The Forbes figures were not from this year, they were from either 1996 or 1997, I believe. And poverty is correlated with unemployment on a 1:1 ratio, so I do not see how poverty could be lower in Western Europe when people are unemployed.
First of all, I am not saying people should earn the same amount of money. I'm saying there should be balance between equity and equality. Life is full of multivariate analyses. The real world isn't computer science, so please do not try to attribute single causal factors to every phenomenon. What I mean is that many poor people do not end up poor because they are lazy. Yes, there are some, and it is difficult to go case-by-case and identify who, but the fact is that we should not stigmatize people who became poor the "legitimate" way, by factors outside their control. The living wage principle is simply that you get an honest day's pay for an honest day's work. You should not have to work your ass off and still not be able to make ends meet. If you put in your time, you should be able to support your family to subsist with health. This principle is not meant to exact revenge on the rich. It is meant for working families to be able to subsist across America.
351Cleveland - the figures you listed ($16,660) was a sum several years back for a family of four, not a single individual. Yes, an individual can live comfortably with $16,660, but not four individuals living together.
Wedesdo - it's people like yellowpee who give liberals a bad name
That's good! Did you think of that yourself?
Mwilding - I did mention in my first post that prices would have to increase. And I am aware that prices would increase for everyone, including the poor. However, the differential between income and cost of living for the impoverished would still be greater than if no income raise occurred at all. This is because the costs of wage increases would be spread out across all members of society (particularly those who consume more goods/services).
crzyc - The Forbes figures were not from this year, they were from either 1996 or 1997, I believe. And poverty is correlated with unemployment on a 1:1 ratio, so I do not see how poverty could be lower in Western Europe when people are unemployed.
<< crzyc - The Forbes figures were not from this year, they were from either 1996 or 1997, I believe. And poverty is correlated with unemployment on a 1:1 ratio, so I do not see how poverty could be lower in Western Europe when people are unemployed. >>
I do not see how poverty could be lower either, in fact I believe it is higher. Someone mentioned that the U.S. had 2-3 times the poverty, I didn't think so, mentioned that european countries all have higher unemployment rates. Maybe you are being sarcastic?
Doboji;
<< AndrewR have you ever been to the Silicon Valley area?... Noone can survive on 6 bucks an hour... 15$ an hour is a necessity.... the cost of living there is sooo much higher.. The restaraunt can afford to pay 15$ to a dishwasher because a frickin hamburger costs 10bucks... 2bucks extra for cheese... >>
and what came first. the inflated cost of a hamburger or the $15 dishwasher. How long would they stay in business if you refused to pay $10 for a hamburger.
Sounds like a problem you created for yourself.
<< AndrewR have you ever been to the Silicon Valley area?... Noone can survive on 6 bucks an hour... 15$ an hour is a necessity.... the cost of living there is sooo much higher.. The restaraunt can afford to pay 15$ to a dishwasher because a frickin hamburger costs 10bucks... 2bucks extra for cheese... >>
and what came first. the inflated cost of a hamburger or the $15 dishwasher. How long would they stay in business if you refused to pay $10 for a hamburger.
Sounds like a problem you created for yourself.
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<< There was publicly funded daycare. >>
which was a good way to lose a child
shifrbv - obviously dude was an upper party bureaucrat. and the apartments often had 3 generations living in them. japan isn't a very good example, since the entire place is run with a mafia sort of environment by the families of the large industrial concerns. korea sort of had that too.
<< Anyone else find it disturbing that, for this economic system to thrive, there needs to be unemployment?? >>
unemployment isn't even a bad thing, necessarily. unemployment is oftentimes caused by people and employers looking for a better fit. that is socially beneficial.
the minimum wage should be set at the point to produce the most social welfare. in fact, thats what the law says. it usually isn't, AFAIK. but $13 is too high. i bet the unions would love that.
YP-
I never stated them as a statistic. I calculated it. I never said it was for four.. I in fact said it WAS for one.
A question I had and forgot to ask you, YP. What do you do for a living? What do you have to support the notion that "paper pushers" do not work hard? I can guarantee you it is not so. I challenge you to work even ONE busy season in an accountant's shoes.. you will realize the error in your statement. Also keep in mind that people don't jsut wake up one day in charge of a company. Many MANY years of stress, long hours, and time without your family are needed in order to advance in most companies. How much stress is associated with a factory or ditch digging job? How many of those have to worry day in and day out about whether the company will be able to generate the cash needed to pay its bills for the next 3 months? My point is not that manual laborers are not needed and their jobs are not demanding, but your statement that "paper pushers" don't earn their money is ludicrous.
I never stated them as a statistic. I calculated it. I never said it was for four.. I in fact said it WAS for one.
A question I had and forgot to ask you, YP. What do you do for a living? What do you have to support the notion that "paper pushers" do not work hard? I can guarantee you it is not so. I challenge you to work even ONE busy season in an accountant's shoes.. you will realize the error in your statement. Also keep in mind that people don't jsut wake up one day in charge of a company. Many MANY years of stress, long hours, and time without your family are needed in order to advance in most companies. How much stress is associated with a factory or ditch digging job? How many of those have to worry day in and day out about whether the company will be able to generate the cash needed to pay its bills for the next 3 months? My point is not that manual laborers are not needed and their jobs are not demanding, but your statement that "paper pushers" don't earn their money is ludicrous.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
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<<
<< Oh BS, YP. Are you claiming that EVERYONE has the ability to play the guitar? That EVERYONE has the ability to be a national sport star? That EVERYONE has the ability to understand complex math problems? That everyone has the ability to be an award winning actor? That everyone has the ability to invent the lightbulb? (I HOPE you get the idea by now) >>
Everyone does. Look at the things you just spoke about - sports, math, acting - how many of the "stars" in these activities just had the natural ability? That one day they decided they would be a star, walked into a tryout and after one game/movie/formula, became a star? Very few. All of them had to work very hard in order to get to where they are at now. Meaning anyone who can put forth the effort to work can be a movie/sports/math star. >>
Completely wrong. Different people have different abilities. YES, these abilities require hard work to develop, but if they aren't there, all the hard work in the world is not going to make Joe Blow a concert violinist, or Susie Hill a great actor, or Johnny Wannabe a great quarterback.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
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<< AndrewR have you ever been to the Silicon Valley area?... Noone can survive on 6 bucks an hour... 15$ an hour is a necessity.... the cost of living there is sooo much higher.. The restaraunt can afford to pay 15$ to a dishwasher because a frickin hamburger costs 10bucks... 2bucks extra for cheese...
-Max >>
And in areas like that, the restaurant pays that much, or it can't find workers.
In my business (fast food sandwich shops) and in this area, I can't find any decent help at minimum wage, so I have to start people over the minimum.
Amused
Elite Member
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<< it's people like yellowpee who give liberals a bad name >>
Hey now... He IS entitled to his opinions. I totally understand where he's coming from because I used to think those ideas would work too. He has nothing but good intentions and good will for his fellow man. Something we could all strive more for, ya know?
herdmaster: I live in Washington DC.... but I've been in california... the problem is there are plenty of people who can afford to buy the hamburger... it's the minority, the dishwashers etc... who are getting screwed... so I guess we should force all dishwashers out of california?
-Max
-Max
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
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<<
<< Most people making money at the poverty line ARE kids, people starting over, and students. The vast majority of them will NOT stay there, they will move on to better jobs and be replaced by NEW kids, NEW people starting over, and NEW students. >>
im not postive, but I doubt students would be included in this figure or kids for that matter. I know students are not included in unemployment figures. >>
It makes no distiction, and only counts people making under a certain amount each year.
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