What is the sweet spot these days with CPU's?

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Denithor

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2004
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Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
You do not need a quad core cpu.

Ok, I can definitely agree with this statement, the quads at this point don't offer any convincing value unless you specifically require that level of processing power (most games don't, not really many applications take full advantage of four cores yet). And if you do need quad-core for some reason wait for the Q9300/Q9450 to launch, they will run much cooler and overclock better than the current Q6600 chips.

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
If you are looking for future 'expansion' you need to purchase a motherboard with a PCIe 2.0 x16 slot for your video card. PCIe2 provides twice the voltage and twice the bandwidth of PCIe1.

PCIe 2.0 x16 is just a marketing gimmick right now. Yeah, the latest cards support it, and yeah, a handful of motherboards offer the slot, but there is no real advantage from the new standard. Today's cards are not bandwidth limited on the PCIe 1.1 x16 slot and they are going to require the external power plug whichever variety of slot you use (1.1 or 2.0, neither of which can provide enough juice for today's power-hungry cards).

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Intel Fan Boy FUD

The X2 5400+ is faster than any AMD cpu in the article. Anand in the link above would seem to disagree with your FUD:

""The race honestly couldn't be closer between AMD and Intel""

""it's a tossup between AMD and Intel once again""

""Intel is slightly ahead in the standings but not by a significant margin""

Objectivity is not a virtue of the Intel Fan Bots at Anand.

And regarding this commentary, if you bothered to read the article you would know that they did not take overclocking into account at all in the gaming benchmarks.

If you look at this article (and the next two pages of game benchmarks) from the early days of C2D, in games the e6400 (2.13GHz, 2MB cache -- slower than e4500 with the same cache) just barely lags behind the AMD flagship FX-62 (2.8GHz, 2x1MB cache -- same speed as X2-5400+ but with double the cache) at stock speeds and totally crushes the AMD chip once overclocked to 2.88GHz (easily surpassed these days with e4500 on P35 motherboard).

So while I am not a fanboy of either camp (I have owned just as many AMD rigs over the last 15 years as Intel systems, I just go where the performance/price leads) at the moment there is absolutely no reason to go AMD for a gaming computer.
 

fastman

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,521
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Thanks all for the excellent advice, it feels like the old days again when this board was new and the sarcasuim was low.

QuixoticOne
I wouldn't waste time on the $200+ price range dual core CPUs like the E8400/E8500;
they're great powerful CPUs, but if you really want future-proof high compute power you might as well pay a similar amount for a Q6600 or Q9450 quad core unit and get far more long term overall performance at the expense of a slight level of overclockability that really only buys you something in a few single threaded games/applications which won't be the norm in the months to come (more and more games and other apps are using 4 cores well all the time). ;

I agree more and more games and apps will be taking advantage of this.

heyheybooboo
Exceptions: Adobe Premiere and Vegas Pro will run threads in parallel across those four cores, as will Flight Simulator X. Supreme Commander 'sort of balances' the load across cores by designating audio threads to run on a seperate core.

I do use Premiere and I play SC so that sways me towards a Quad a lot!

heyheybooboo
If you are looking for future 'expansion' you need to purchase a motherboard with a PCIe 2.0 x16 slot for your video card. PCIe2 provides twice the voltage and twice the bandwidth of PCIe1.

Future proofing is important to me so thanks for this info, I was not aware of that, X38 it shall be!

Once again thanks all.
 

v8envy

Platinum Member
Sep 7, 2002
2,720
0
0
Originally posted by: fastman

Future proofing is important to me so thanks for this info, I was not aware of that, X38 it shall be!

Once again thanks all.

You can't upgrade for the future. By the time you need a graphics card which can take advantage of the PCIe 2.0 bandwidth you will no longer want your current CPU, board and RAM.

The Abit P35E is $60. The ram is nearly free. Put the $100+ you'd spend on an X38 board and possibly $500 extra you'd spend on the DDR3 ram into a future upgrade budget. Upgrade for the future IN the future, it's a lot cheaper and nicer.

And I agree, shame on pulling out a stock clock chart which shows flagship AMD cpus struggling to beat budget Intel CPUs *at stock clocks*. Compare likely (no-brainer overclocked) performance and the picture looks much, much, much worse. No fanboyism needed to see it -- AMD has a 30-50% IPC disadvantage across a great majority of applications including most games. Combine that with a 20-50% higher OC headroom of core2 chips and you have an utter slaughter.

If you're building a stock clock basic internet machine for your parents for the smallest $ you can, AMD all the way. Anything else demands Intel. I'll change my tune a bit once I see $100 Phenom quads in the 2.6 ghz range, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

harpoon84

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2006
1,084
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I'd agree, current GPUs are nowhere near saturating the bandwith of PCI-E 1.1, there is still plenty of spare bandwith for future GPUs too.

I think you're exaggerating a little about the lack of competitiveness in stock AMD chips though. I mean, the 'flagship' X2 6400+ is a heck of a lot faster than an E2160 at stock. Intel only has a noticeable advantage when you start overclocking the CPUs.
 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
1,855
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You're welcome.

Just to add my $0.02 on some of the other peoples' comments --

Quad core benefit -- well I have quads, duals, and singles which I use every day, so
I'm pretty well versed in the real world differences in performance.
Now I *do* use high performance computing with multi-threaded applications frequently, and *of course* the quad core CPUs are overwhelmingly advantageous there. However often I'm just doing normal desktop computing. A few web browser windows / tabs open. A couple of PDF reader windows open. A couple of downloads happening. The OS running. An instant messenger running. My anti-virus / anti-spyware stuff running. A shell prompt running. My text editor or office application running to read/write some document. My email client running. Now even if all of those things were purely single threaded applications, well, that's already several individual applications, and each one may have more than one tab/window open at once. With my quad core box (which also has plenty of RAM) is used and I switch from one window to another window, e.g. go from my email to selecting a browser tab, it is generally instantaneously responsive and smooth. With my single core box it OFTEN grinds to a halt and there are annoying delays just switching between already open applications or opening a new email message or browser tab. If one of the applications is "busy" like running a search or scan then the benefit of the quad is even more apparent. This ALONE is enough to justify a $250 Q6600 over a $200 E8400 to me, for instance.

Future proofing -- well you have to pick your strategy. In today's market it has very little incremental cost disincentive to go from high end dual to high end quad CPU, so the choice as to which is likely to serve better in the future is an obvious consideration. Almost nobody wants to replace their main PC more often than every 2-4 years, it's expensive, and if you do a good job selecting the original configuration, finding good values, and prudently choosing a few minor upgrades along the way, there's no reason a PC shouldn't last 5 years as a perfectly servicable useful system. That's a reasonable level of "future proofing" -- pick something that will be useful, servicable, suitable, and a good value over its expected operating lifetime, and try to maximize the life expectancy given reasonable cost/benefit tradeoffs. Investing into DDR3, X48 chipsets, multi-CPU-socket motherboards, et. al. today is not a good value since although it'd be more "future proof" the return on the incremental investment costs of getting those technologies is not good because of high price premiums on those technologies at this time and low relative benefit of those technologies over the much lower cost more established competitive older generation technologies.
You can buy a 500GB SATA drive for about the same cost as an 160GB PATA drive today, so, again, the choice is pretty obvious, get the one with the longer warranty (5y seagate), and get the one with the newer interface, higher capacity, lower power consumption, etc.

Although the choices in today's market don't always make much SENSE, they're there -- when I go to Fry's Video Card Page I am confronted with the options:

EVGA FX5500 PCI 128MB $060.00 after rebate.
EVGA e-GeForce 6200LE 256MB PCI-Express 16x $000.00 after rebate.
BFG 9600GT OC Video Card (512MB, PCI-Express) $199.00

Although ANY of them would work FINE for the majority of internet, office application,
productivity application, email, etc. uses, "today", it's pretty clear that two out of the three
are not even SLIGHTLY "future proof" in that they already won't run even the basic
GUI in Vista Aero, are certainly not going to cut it for the next generation OS, etc.
Also only one of them will really let you play any decent fraction of the video games
or 3D / high definition multimedia content out there.

Now it's hard to beat the value proposition of $0/1 year of use if it does what you
need today but with very little "future proof" reserve of functionality.

No brainer that the $0 option for a NEWER BETTER card is a better deal than the
even LESS future proof $60 option for the older even more obsolete card.

Is the $199 card worth it? Well it WOULD be MUCH more future proof, and so one could see using it in 5 years time for at least basic PC uses. Ok. That's down to $40/year amortized, not too bad. It would also let you play more games and high definition video today, but you may not care. Maybe I'm not comfortable upgrading PC hardware/software myself, so I'm having someone build it for me. Maybe replacing it will take 3 hours downtime that I could be using for something better. Ok, well, it's probably worth SOME money today for a 5 year future proof card over a model that I KNOW I'd likely have to pay (in down time and service/installation costs, shopping/research time, time to install new drivers, etc.) to replace within 1-2 years.

So although one can't and shouldn't future proof PC purchases by expecting to get everything STATE OF THE ART TODAY and expect little depreciation over time, one can certainly factor it in intelligently to avoid being "penny wise, pound foolish" and getting something that is just plainly a bad value that will be obsolete over a 5 year period when one DOES have either much less expensive but still adequate choices today, or SLIGHTLY more expensive but MUCH more future proof/performant choices.

The really confusing part is that the market is flooded with so many choices, all of which SEEM reasonable options, but, really, many of them aren't even worth considering even at slight discounts. Certainly not when 25% more initial cost will get you 200% more performance and 200% more "future proofness".

The market would be a lot less confusing if they weren't still TRYING to sell uninformed consumers Celeron and Core Duo and Pentium 4 CPUs right alongside the modern Quad and Core2Duo CPUs. The $50 Pentium D starts to look like a great deal next to a $199 Core2Duo E8400 if you just go down the marketing checklist... "Both Dual core, check. Both run around 3 GHz, check. Both work in my motherboard. Check. Both run all my applications, check." trouble is one of them will probably cost you $200/year more in power bills and has like 1/4 the performance of the modern one. Oops.

 
T

Tim

Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy
The gamers choice seems to be E8400 wolfdale dual core these days, if you heavily multitask or do more than game or just want the added power of a quad then a Q6600 or the new Q9450 is the ticket.

From the sounds of the forum posts here at AT I'd say the choice may be E8400 but that's not what anyone is buying because no one can find them anywhere in stock.

If he has a Microcenter around him, he'd best check there for the e8400. They seem to be hit and miss with the stock just like everywhere else... but when they do have it, it's the cheapest place to get it, 189. :)
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
Originally posted by: thepladfad
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy
The gamers choice seems to be E8400 wolfdale dual core these days, if you heavily multitask or do more than game or just want the added power of a quad then a Q6600 or the new Q9450 is the ticket.

From the sounds of the forum posts here at AT I'd say the choice may be E8400 but that's not what anyone is buying because no one can find them anywhere in stock.

If he has a Microcenter around him, he'd best check there for the e8400. They seem to be hit and miss with the stock just like everywhere else... but when they do have it, it's the cheapest place to get it, 189. :)

That's crazy cheap! For real? 189!?
 

byronm

Member
Aug 2, 2007
88
0
0
Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy
The gamers choice seems to be E8400 wolfdale dual core these days, if you heavily multitask or do more than game or just want the added power of a quad then a Q6600 or the new Q9450 is the ticket.

From the sounds of the forum posts here at AT I'd say the choice may be E8400 but that's not what anyone is buying because no one can find them anywhere in stock.


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esquared
Anandtech Senior Moderator
 

TheJian

Senior member
Oct 2, 2007
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Originally posted by: Markfw900
The Q6600 works fine on 965P or P35. The X38 is the latest and greatest, but not required at all. My favorite is the P35-DQ6, its spendy, but works great for quads.

And a Q6600@3.4 or better, is very close in games to a E8400@4.0 or better, and in one or two, the Q6600 is actually better. If you have to do this in the next 30 days, its no question, Q6600 (IMO), but if you wait 2 months, and you absolutely want the best for games, an E8400 MIGHT be your choice.

Why wait a month? Get a e3110 at excaliberpc.com or allstarshop.com ($229 or $239 respectively).
http://www.circuitremix.com/in...?q=node/122&page=0%2C2
Tested E3110 above. Great chip, better volts out of the box than E8400/E8500 probably.

Where do you get the gaming numbers from?
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...uad-q9300_4.html#sect0
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...core2quad-q9300_5.html

If you take the numbers from both pages to get Q6600 vs. E8500 it's an E8500 domination not equal with some victories for Q6600. (i'm going to round up/down to nears fps here):
Quake4 Q=126 E=158
HALF2 Q=145 E=185
Crysis Q=55 E=72
UT3 Q=154 E=157
Worldinconflict Q=72 E=91

I'd say it's close in ONE game (1 victory in UT3 maybe?) at 3.4 vs 4.0 (UT3), but it will be dominated in almost all others. The E9300 which dominated the Q6600, is a different animal if slightly. It actually pulled one victory in UT3 at 167.5. 4 out of 5 games though are a complete SMACKDOWN for E8500.

Will the future change that? Only if they decide coding games for 4 cores is worth the money/time. Until I see the first signs of mass UT3 like scores I'll skip quad (speaking as a gamer, with no need for quad in power hungry apps). I like the power consumption on Q9xxx chips though. I'd be ok with them given a choice. Even the lowly Q9300 beat the Q6600 by 5% avg in games with UT3 and WIC showing mhz matters more than cache I guess. Power consumption is a full 68watts lower! I love that. Quad for a dual power price. From the looks of it you could run your Q9300 at 3.2ghz or so and only be the same power wise as the Q6600...Great job Intel. If even pondering the Q6600 one should wait for Q9300. It's just far superior when you think of the power cost over a 3yr lifetime. Or thinking you can run it at 3.2ghz for the same cost as Q6600 at 2.4ghz. At those speeds Q9300 blows it away.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
27,403
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I was assuming a Q6600@3.4 and a E8500@4.0, not @ stock. And in Supreme Commander, the Q6600 wins (one of the few multi-threaded games) At overclocked speeds, its closer.
 

TheJian

Senior member
Oct 2, 2007
220
0
0
Originally posted by: Markfw900
I was assuming a Q6600@3.4 and a E8500@4.0, not @ stock. And in Supreme Commander, the Q6600 wins (one of the few multi-threaded games) At overclocked speeds, its closer.

The Q6600=2.4ghz while the E8500=3.16ghz. That's a larger margin than 3.4 vs 4.0 but I'd venture to guess the loss for Q6600 wouldn't be much less. We're only talking 160mhz different in these two comparisons. The Q9300 is 100mhz more than Q6600 and with less cache yet it still wins by 5% over Q6600. So this 160mhz would not make much difference when you look at those numbers I posted. We're talking greater than 20% victories for E8500 here except in UT3 where it's still a loss but close.

http://www.tomshardware.com/20...transistors/page6.html
Supreme Q6600=49.45 E8500=52.4

I'd say another 160mhz would be a tie, it does have ground to make up here at defaults. Even at 3ghz and 1333 fsb the QX6850 Extreme only hits 58.95. That's barely 11% and it's a full 600mhz/core and a FSB increase to get that. You add 11% to Q6600 and you get 54.89. I guess 1333fsb adds the extra few frames. Either way if you're running at 3ghz, something tells me the E8500 would be running at 3.6 (giving both a 600mhz inc) and still wind up with an E8500 victory. What would change adding another 400 to both? Maybe my math is wrong and I'm just not seeing it here. Is there a benchmark somewhere else showing Q6600 beating E8500 in supreme commander at 3.4 vs 4.0? Either way it's still just ONE game that's a tie at best. UT3 the same. The others I mentioned are outright victories to the tune of 20+% for E8500 (not that I'd pay $350 for one...LOL).
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
27,403
16,251
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Well, that wasn't the place I saw the benches, and I wasn't even considering the new quads, as I have not seen them anywhere for sale. The E8400 is had to find also.

I think my point is, of the cpu's readily available today, that is ONE of the good choices.
 

TheJian

Senior member
Oct 2, 2007
220
0
0
For people with apps like 3d Studiomax, Cinema3D, Premiere etc I'd say quad is a no brainer. But home use I think Dual's should be seriously considered. My biggest problem with the Q6600 is the power bill over 3yrs (77watts @ load over E8500 even at idle it's 40w). Add that up if you're a pretty heavy pc user and not winning many benchmarks I tend to hesitate. Now the Q9xxx chips kill the watt problem.

If I was considering a Q6600 I'd definitely say wait.

For anyone wanting an E8400:
http://www.excaliberpc.com/Int...artinfo-id-584805.html
$229 107 in stock

http://www.allstarshop.com/sho...M98GG1B44RV88F642UBKW2
$239 says ships same day, but not sure about stock. I can't find it anywhere else though.

I will say that excaliberpc shipped mine Monday with only 94 or so I think in stock, so one of their suppliers must have gotten a few more. It now shows 107 so it's went up! Also when I bought it was $10 less at excaliberpc. So maybe they're getting wiser?..LOL

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=549725
Shows most people agreeing (and so do their volts/OC's) that these are better chips. Not mhz wise, it seems they're all the same which makes sense given the process is the same for E8xxx and E3110. But just that you get there with less volts/heat.

Want a Q9300? Same as X3320 Xeon Try this:
http://www.lagoom.com/INTEL_CP...artinfo-id-580364.html
$293 in stock! A little rich for me but if I had a bigger wallet?...Hmmm...

Q9450? same as X3350 Xeon try this for $346 (12MB cache!)
http://www.lagoom.com/Intel_CP...artinfo-id-580363.html

Just some FYI's for people begging to get these :) Avoid that stinking Ebay crap. Get them cheap above!
 

fastman

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,521
4
81
The Q9300 seems lilke the ticket for me then, I'll just have to wait just a little bit till it ships!

Read more about it here.
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
I got the Q6600 and the Foxxcon X38A board.

The board does everything, and it is has BIOS you can play with for days, but the best part for me is that I can stick DDR3 RAM in it when the price is better because it handles DDR2 and DDR3 (not both at once!!!). You can find both at www.newegg.com.

Very stable, well made, and highly rated board, here and other respectable hardware review sites. Besides support for DDR2 and 3 it has:

12 USB2 ports
2 eSATA ports
2 Firewire ports
Realtek ALC888T HD Audio
Dual Gigabit ethernet ports
Optical SPDIF port
2PCIe 16 slots for crossfire if you really want...
and of course it's Intel's x38 chipset.

I stuck 4GB or OCZ Reaper PC2 6400 RAM and an 8800GTS 512 in it and it played Oblivion, Crysis, Bioshock, COD4, etc. just fine, before overclocking it to nearly 4GHz like I have. I have to tame down Crysis just like everybody else though.
 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
1,855
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That sounds like a very nice board. I wasn't aware of it, though I've heard of a couple of others that cah take either DDR3 or DDR2.

I just figured that it'd take at least 1.5-2 years minimum before there was any DDR3 that was effectively a better performance/value proposition than the DDR2 I'd already have, by which time the CPU socket would likely be different and I'd need a good new CPU/GPU/RAM set anyway for a sensible upgrade.

I'm not sure I'd have the heart to take out perfectly good DDR2 and set it on the junkpile just to run DDR3 that is slightly faster. It seems like it's a better (more charitable, anyway) thing to just keep a well functioning PC intact and give it away or sell it or something rather than take major pieces out which are likely never to be used again by anyone if not part of a full system.

At today's insanely low prices for DDR2 I've just been maxing out the systems I build for myself / family with 8GB and figuring that there will just NEVER come a time that any part of the CPU/Motherboard/RAM will be obsolete before it all becomes effectively so together.
Even if they cease being cutting edge for games and high performance in a few months, they'll always be enough for general purpose computing even 8 years in the future until something breaks.

DDR3 just CAN'T get any cheaper for years than the current $17-$25 / 1GB mark DDR2 is, and there is a limit to how much faster DDR3 can get than PC2-6400 5-5-5-15 or PC2-8000-5-5-5-15 DIMMs that are in those price ranges now; if the speed boost is under 25% for DDR3 it still doesn't seem very cost effective of an upgrade especially when eventually upgrading to a 4-core or 8-core CPU will get one a bigger boost in many cases.


Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS
I got the Q6600 and the Foxxcon X38A board.

The board does everything, and it is has BIOS you can play with for days, but the best part for me is that I can stick DDR3 RAM in it when the price is better because it handles DDR2 and DDR3 (not both at once!!!). You can find both at www.newegg.com.

Very stable, well made, and highly rated board, here and other respectable hardware review sites. Besides support for DDR2 and 3 it has:

12 USB2 ports
2 eSATA ports
2 Firewire ports
Realtek ALC888T HD Audio
Dual Gigabit ethernet ports
Optical SPDIF port
2PCIe 16 slots for crossfire if you really want...
and of course it's Intel's x38 chipset.

I stuck 4GB or OCZ Reaper PC2 6400 RAM and an 8800GTS 512 in it and it played Oblivion, Crysis, Bioshock, COD4, etc. just fine, before overclocking it to nearly 4GHz like I have. I have to tame down Crysis just like everybody else though.

 

TheJian

Senior member
Oct 2, 2007
220
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While I'd believe any board that runs a Q9450 would be fine, I'd wait until you're not the ONLY one with one :)

We will know this weekend most likely. I think they just hit the shelves. Board updates should come shortly since everyone is now trying to get these quads and a lot people will be left hanging this weekend/next week if not updated immediately. They're the only thing in stock. Don't get rid of your current S775 chip just in case you have to flash with it. OMG, you might not have one. What are you currently running? I feel sorry for anybody that buys even a wolfdale/yorkfield desktop and tries to run it on a board thats been on the shelf for a bit. Most of them have just had their bios updates for these and you would be hard pressed to get them in a box if they are a few months old. I was reading about people on newegg having this problem with many boards. They'd boot with no post and can't flash I guess.

My dad's board that is on the way could come with F1/F2 bios (EP35-DS3R). I have a chip in case it's F1 to flash with for his E3110. But a guy within the last two weeks got F1 and complained about the Gigabyte board he just bought (same as my dads). I guess they have some older bios boards sitting on the shelf. It was the same rev2.1 but older bios by default. I hope you have access to a chip (friend or your own). The E3110 wasn't supported until F2 on this board. I checked and don't see the X3350 yet on this one. I suspect it will be one of the first.

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=552297&page=2
Watch that thread. There are probably threads like that all over oc sites. xtremesystems.com is another place that probably has a thread on X3350.

You could go searching board bios info, but I'm too lazy for that right now. I'd just wait and watch. We should know next week, as people get them and plop them into 10-20 boards. There's nothing different other than cpuid, so if you see the desktop model it will work we just need an update for them although they should run already, I'd probably want to see it in print first. That's just me.

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?p=708750
Just posted. Answers probably shortly. Google for more. I punched in x3350 overclock for that one.
 

ooeDBone

Member
Dec 18, 2000
27
0
0
Thanks for the info Jian.

I don't have another chip unfortunately. I am currently running an A64 3500+. So yeah, hefty upgrade. I kinda figured this might be an issue but I just couldn't pass up getting this chip for my upgrade. I'll keep an eye out on those links and here as well.
 

TheJian

Senior member
Oct 2, 2007
220
0
0
You're welcome. I can't blame you on the purchase. I was kinda salivating at that one myself. But I just ordered 2 E3110's so I'll wait until next time I guess (nehalem?).

If I see some boards with people using this chip shortly I'll start a thread for it. Maybe something like "MOTHERBOARDS THAT WORK X3350". That looks good :)

Good luck.

Jeez, I had a lot of spelling errors in that post...ROFL.
 

tallman45

Golden Member
May 27, 2003
1,463
0
0
These days meaning what you can buy today

Q6600 is all there is (and it is a great option indeed especially for $200)

IF the E8400, Xeon 3110 or Q9450 were available , perhaps they would be an option but they are not available and may not be for awhile