What is the real deal about cycling?

[UTmtnbiker]

I don't doubt there are clean riders. But I also don't doubt that the majority of the peloton is doping. At what level to me is the matter of debate, or if you can even call it doping if it's not illegal.

The thing I find curious is that if it was a cortizone shot or some other medically sanctioned treatment, why hasn't Phonak, Landis, or team direction John Lelangue come out with a statement. As a matter of fact, Phonak has come out with a rather harsh statement suspending Landis and threatening him with dismissal if the "B" test is also positivie. In addition, the silence of Landis and Lelangue hasn't been great. I'm just speculating here but if it were me, I would be screaming at the top of my lungs that it was a medical treatment and the UCI either knew about it, is okay with it, or wasn't illegal.

Wasn't that what Lance, Discovery, and Bruyneel did when his results were released? I'm still not 100% convinced that Armstrong didn't dope, but at least he hasn't been caught IF THAT IS THE CASE. Keep in mind all of the synthetic drugs that BALCO had for ball players that couldn't be detected until BALCO was busted. Of course, now there are tests available for all of those synthetic drugs, but you can't test for what you don't know about.

I'm hoping Landis didn't dope, as that would really ruin a great tour with a great story, but boy, if he did, he's going to go down in a flame of disgrace a la Tyler Hamilton (who IMHO should have lost the gold medal that he won at the Olympics).

 

[D1gger]

Originally posted by: Juice Box
The poor Canadian snowboarder, in the 1998 Olympics, they took away his medal because he tested positive for marijuana, which is kinda redundant number one, number two, they said that marijuana was a 'performance-enhancing drug.' EEEEHHH.
Marijuana enhances many things, colors, shapes, sensations, but you are certainly not ****** empowered. When you're stoned, you're lucky if you can find your own goddamn feet! The only way it's a performance-enhancing drug is if there's a big ****** hershey bar at the end of the run.

lol

He got his medal back. After further consideration, the olympic drug committee agreed that the level he tested at was so low, that he probably got it just by going to a good luck party thrown by his friends where he breathed in second hand smoke. His medal was fully re-instated.

 

[freegeeks]

@DaShen

If I follow your logic Ullrich, Basso, Museeuw and all the other riders on the fuentes list are also clean because they never tested positive

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: UTmtnbiker
I don't doubt there are clean riders. But I also don't doubt that the majority of the peloton is doping. At what level to me is the matter of debate, or if you can even call it doping if it's not illegal.

The thing I find curious is that if it was a cortizone shot or some other medically sanctioned treatment, why hasn't Phonak, Landis, or team direction John Lelangue come out with a statement. As a matter of fact, Phonak has come out with a rather harsh statement suspending Landis and threatening him with dismissal if the "B" test is also positivie. In addition, the silence of Landis and Lelangue hasn't been great. I'm just speculating here but if it were me, I would be screaming at the top of my lungs that it was a medical treatment and the UCI either knew about it, is okay with it, or wasn't illegal.

Wasn't that what Lance, Discovery, and Bruyneel did when his results were released? I'm still not 100% convinced that Armstrong didn't dope, but at least he hasn't been caught IF THAT IS THE CASE. Keep in mind all of the synthetic drugs that BALCO had for ball players that couldn't be detected until BALCO was busted. Of course, now there are tests available for all of those synthetic drugs, but you can't test for what you don't know about.

I'm hoping Landis didn't dope, as that would really ruin a great tour with a great story, but boy, if he did, he's going to go down in a flame of disgrace a la Tyler Hamilton (who IMHO should have lost the gold medal that he won at the Olympics).

exactly, I couldn't have said it better

 

[Dubb]

Originally posted by: UTmtnbiker
I'm still not 100% convinced that Armstrong didn't dope, but at least he hasn't been caught IF THAT IS THE CASE.

if you ask me, that right there is part of the problem. If armstrong doped, people should want him caught.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: Dubb
You can believe whatever you want...but I think you're allegiance to the sport just signify's your unwillingness to see the obvious. And you haven't pointed out any facts...just opinions.

I don't know about golf - it's not as physically taxing as others. but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Like I said - it takes everything. yes, those people are physically gifted. but that ain't the whole story. The whole POINT of doping these days is to do it without there being any evidence of it.

Opinions? About Tiger Woods? You have got to be kidding me, man. It is a fact that he has won many golf tournaments. It is also fact, that his father had him play golf ever since he was a very young boy. The way he played gold, even his drive were better trained and more thought out than other players of his time (that is how he won).

Again, all I see in your previous three statements are generalizations of the same premise. That you believe all professional athletes dope. Where is your evidence? I have as of yet to see any. If you take any logics classes you will find that generalized statements that are "all inclusive" are much harder to prove, yet even with that you show NO evidence in your statement other than being condescending. :roll:

All I am saying is that cycling is a clean sport compared to many other sports because of there crackdown on doping. To say that all pro athletes dope to get good at waht they do is naive, to make the same statement while not showing any evidence and being condescending at the same time, is not only naive but incredibly stupid. I keep asking for you to show evidence, but each time you just make your generalized statements and say some idiotic remark.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: UTmtnbiker
I don't doubt there are clean riders. But I also don't doubt that the majority of the peloton is doping. At what level to me is the matter of debate, or if you can even call it doping if it's not illegal.

The thing I find curious is that if it was a cortizone shot or some other medically sanctioned treatment, why hasn't Phonak, Landis, or team direction John Lelangue come out with a statement. As a matter of fact, Phonak has come out with a rather harsh statement suspending Landis and threatening him with dismissal if the "B" test is also positivie. In addition, the silence of Landis and Lelangue hasn't been great. I'm just speculating here but if it were me, I would be screaming at the top of my lungs that it was a medical treatment and the UCI either knew about it, is okay with it, or wasn't illegal.

Wasn't that what Lance, Discovery, and Bruyneel did when his results were released? I'm still not 100% convinced that Armstrong didn't dope, but at least he hasn't been caught IF THAT IS THE CASE. Keep in mind all of the synthetic drugs that BALCO had for ball players that couldn't be detected until BALCO was busted. Of course, now there are tests available for all of those synthetic drugs, but you can't test for what you don't know about.

I'm hoping Landis didn't dope, as that would really ruin a great tour with a great story, but boy, if he did, he's going to go down in a flame of disgrace a la Tyler Hamilton (who IMHO should have lost the gold medal that he won at the Olympics).

Yeah, it is pretty sad. I would suspect that some of the good riders like Ullrich and Basso doped in the past. Their nicknames were on the list. But I am going to wait on sample B before adding Landis' name to the dopers list.

There is some witness evidence that Lance might have doped on his first stage win Tour de France (before cancer), but I am a little hesitant to say he doped after because he was tested at random weekly. Plus the crazy amount of training he did in comparison to other riders.

 

[D1gger]

Originally posted by: Dubb

Originally posted by: UTmtnbiker
I'm still not 100% convinced that Armstrong didn't dope, but at least he hasn't been caught IF THAT IS THE CASE.

if you ask me, that right there is part of the problem. If armstrong doped, people should want him caught.

If you read all of the information contained in the Vrijman Report you could conclude that Lance was caught when they tested his old samples, but that because the testing and reporting process was flawed the results are not conclusive.

 

[UTmtnbiker]

I agree with DaShen that the UCI is more aggressive purusing doping, dopers, and the doctors who love them more than any other organized sporting group with maybe the exception of the IOC (what a joke major league baseball is in this arena).

However, I think that's a sad commentary on the sport of cycling, because I think per capita, you'll find more cyclists using illegal performance enhancing drugs be it doping, steriods, whatever than in other professional sports.

 

[DaShen]

This is just an opinion, but I am betting if the NFL and NBA did as many tests and crackdowns as professional cycling does, an overwhelming amount of players would be caught with performance enhancing drug use.

While in cycling, everyone gets tested at least once during a race, and stage winner get tested, and contenders get tested almost every day. There are raids, and only small groups and pockets are found to have doped.

Because cycling does this, I still say that the sport is much cleaner than other sports.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: UTmtnbiker
I agree with DaShen that the UCI is more aggressive purusing doping, dopers, and the doctors who love them more than any other organized sporting group with maybe the exception of the IOC (what a joke major league baseball is in this arena).

However, I think that's a sad commentary on the sport of cycling, because I think per capita, you'll find more cyclists using illegal performance enhancing drugs be it doping, steriods, whatever than in other professional sports.

The only reason for that is because other sports are more lenient on performance enhancing drugs than cycling is.

But for the most part I agree with most of your statements.

 

[UTmtnbiker]

As an aside, below is from a doctor (surgeon) on bikeforums.net stating that a cortisone shot does not increase testosterone:

1. The UCI approved Flandis's cortisone for his hip.

2. The body can't make testosterone from cortisone, even if it is administered systemically versus into a joint.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: UTmtnbiker
As an aside, below is from a doctor (surgeon) on bikeforums.net stating that a cortisone shot does not increase testosterone:

1. The UCI approved Flandis's cortisone for his hip.

2. The body can't make testosterone from cortisone, even if it is administered systemically versus into a joint.

Even with 6 shots. That sucks. How then did the Cortisone cream that Lance took make a positive UA? Because that is what they concluded on that case. I guess that cream may have had a sterol to prevent swelling as well as the Cortisone?

 

[Dubb]

Originally posted by: DaShen

Originally posted by: Dubb
You can believe whatever you want...but I think you're allegiance to the sport just signify's your unwillingness to see the obvious. And you haven't pointed out any facts...just opinions.

I don't know about golf - it's not as physically taxing as others. but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Like I said - it takes everything. yes, those people are physically gifted. but that ain't the whole story. The whole POINT of doping these days is to do it without there being any evidence of it.

Opinions? About Tiger Woods? You have got to be kidding me, man. It is a fact that he has won many golf tournaments. It is also fact, that his father had him play golf ever since he was a very young boy. The way he played gold, even his drive were better trained and more thought out than other players of his time (that is how he won).

Again, all I see in your previous three statements are generalizations of the same premise. That you believe all professional athletes dope. Where is your evidence? I have as of yet to see any. If you take any logics classes you will find that generalized statements that are "all inclusive" are much harder to prove, yet even with that you show NO evidence in your statement other than being condescending. :roll:

All I am saying is that cycling is a clean sport compared to many other sports because of there crackdown on doping. To say that all pro athletes dope to get good at waht they do is naive, to make the same statement while not showing any evidence and being condescending at the same time, is not only naive but incredibly stupid. I keep asking for you to show evidence, but each time you just make your generalized statements and say some idiotic remark.

we all know tiger woods won stuff. You also know that's not what I was talking about.

This obviously isn't going to go anywhere. To me it's obvious, to you it isn't.

I consider the cases where people have been caught evidence of a larger problem. I consider the doctors reports that it's nearly impossible to catch any of the multitude of designer drugs/strategies evidence. I consider the fierce competition and millions of dollars in motivation a DAMN good hint.

so, to spell it out:

1) motivation
2) done right, people aren't likely to get caught.
3) some people get caught anyway.

to me, that spells rampant, widespread use. Does it REALLY spell something different to you?

 

[DaShen]

UTmtnbiker: Where on bikeforums.net did you see that? I must have skipped that post.

 

[UTmtnbiker]

Bikeforums is really slow right now so I can't give you the exact post number, but it's on pg 3 of the "Landis Flunks Drug Test" thread posted by DrPete.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: DaShen
Not many dopers in Cycling because doping is taken so seriously in that sport.

Not true. A couple months ago, the world anti-doping agency released a list of the olympic sports that have the most drug abuse. Cycling was in the lead by a wide margin. Soccer was second. I believe baseball was 4th.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: UTmtnbiker
Bikeforums is really slow right now so I can't give you the exact post number, but it's on pg 3 of the "Landis Flunks Drug Test" thread posted by DrPete.

Yeah, I found it.

BTW Are you going to keep up with the Volta this year?

So many different people this year in contention because of all the scandals. It will also be an interesting ride.

 

[UTmtnbiker]

Who's left at this point? Every big name rider has been implicated, accused of, or is under suspicion of doping.

My pick...Axel Merxck!

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: UTmtnbiker
Who's left at this point? Every big name rider has been implicated, accused of, or is under suspicion of doping.

My pick...Axel Merxck!

Hahaha... I guess he has a chance now. That is mean.

Too bad he really isn't as good as his dad.

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: loic2003
dope over here == weed. You'd not want to be stoned and try to get fit/cycle

This is actually untrue. I know of people who toke up before a time trial to take advantage of the painkilling effects.

Not saying this is common, but not unheard of.

 

[Savij]

Originally posted by: freegeeks
I've been following (pro)cycling for the better part of my life. I'm convinced that at some stage in their career all procyclists are/were using some kind of illegal substance, even the great Lance and the great Merckx.

I live in Belgium where cycling is the biggest sport and doping is widespread even on the amateur level. When millions are at stake for the the Ullrichs, Armstrongs, Landis and Basso's, taking performance enhancing stuff is normal. Everyone who believes that these guys are riding the Tour de France on a baguette with cheese is naive as hell

it's still the greatest sport in the world for me, even with all the "cheaters" :thumbsup:

So what you're saying is that, if nothing else, Belgian cycle culture is conducive to cheating.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: Savij

Originally posted by: freegeeks
I've been following (pro)cycling for the better part of my life. I'm convinced that at some stage in their career all procyclists are/were using some kind of illegal substance, even the great Lance and the great Merckx.

I live in Belgium where cycling is the biggest sport and doping is widespread even on the amateur level. When millions are at stake for the the Ullrichs, Armstrongs, Landis and Basso's, taking performance enhancing stuff is normal. Everyone who believes that these guys are riding the Tour de France on a baguette with cheese is naive as hell

it's still the greatest sport in the world for me, even with all the "cheaters" :thumbsup:

So what you're saying is that, if nothing else, Belgian cycle culture is conducive to cheating.

nice try