@ Spittledip
It sounds like you are still hung up on a word attached to a concept. If I am reading your reply correctly you dont want the word marriage attached the concept of MM or FF union which would be entitled to the same rights by law if passed. Because in reality, SS marriage IS a different concept. If passed by legislatures would be goverened by its own strict case law. Its a seperate concept you have trouble rapping the word marriage around for what is sounds like, religious, traditional reasons, the status quo. If you do support SS marriage under a different word or concept I don't find your views "bigoted" in a sense. I would use the words "old fashioned" or "backward". Just as I illustrated how a words meaning can change over time and a concept can evolve over time. I agree that people have to be convinced that the change is good. Sadly, that just takes time. If you support asserting no inalienable rights to gays, then i might view your views as "bigoted". While "inalienable rights" is generally classed as a Deist belief that has percolated into an American value under our secular system. It's not strictly religious but philosophical, metaphysical. Whether or not they are "endowed by their Creator" (Christian God or otherwise) with them, the conception is that rights inhere in the individual, and the role of governments is not to deny or disparage them, but guarantee and protect them. In other words, the belief in pre-existent abstract "natural rights" is not inimical to a religious belief, but it is not dependent on it.
I do find your contention that nobody holds values sacred any more ridiculous. My wife and I do not adhere to any one diety of any of the organized religions. But we do have values we hold sacred. And our children, now entering adulthood, hold ingrained morality into which values they hold dear.There is the legal aspects to marriage and all that entails and there is the religious aspect. A church (or whatever) is not obligated to marry anyone. They can pick and choose as they like. The State however should recognize equal rights for all consenting adults who wish to hitch their wagons together regardless of sex or religion or color or anything else, with strict laws governing any new concept. I don't believe that the "one man and one woman" definition is enshrined in some unchangeable metaphysical construct. But there is a drive towards wanting to share one's life with another for whom one feels not merely lust but ongoing love, to participate in the ongoing care and upbringing of one's progeny, or of young persons one has bonded to in lieu of biological progeny. So 'marriage' is a sort of biological or social imperative. Not exclusive heterosexual monogamy as an exclusive definition of marriage, but 'marrige' in the broad sense. It, not just ease of access to a sex partner, is why couples live together, with or without marital vows; it is why adoptions and foster parent programs succeed. It is a real construct.
And how is it that "what is natural" is such a holy grail? Polio is natural. Influenza is natural. In fact, feet are natural; shoes and automobiles are not. Yet I suspect that those glorifying the natural are not (with perhaps a few exceptions) limping from place to place, barefoot and coughing. What, specifically, were left hands "designed" for? Is it a natural act for a left hand to grasp and control a helicopter collective? Was it designed to do that? Was it designed to rest its fingers on the letters ASDF of a keyboard? How did this design process work, exactly, and how can we determine what other acts may be unnatural for left hands to accomplish? Are there any?
It does kind of astonish me how all those non-Judeo-Christians through history managed to keep their civilizations going without the sacred institution of marriage that the Christians invented. All those poor pre-Christian pagans and unenlightened heathens around the world (before the missionaries got there), never knowing the sacred and exclusive institution of marriage The men and women of Babylon and Egypt, the ancient Greeks, Imperial Rome, the mighty civilizations of the East - I guess none of them could invent anything as lofty and sublime as "marriage", seeing as how none of them was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I have freinds and relatives that have similar views as yours. They have a problem with on the grounds of tradition and fear. They are confused. I dont find them to be bigots. Because the right to marry a person is a concept "deeply rooted in our nation's history." And the right to marry a person of the same sex is not. I'm a proponent of legal same-sex marriage, but I agree that you cannot make this argument unchallenged and it must be enshrined under strict law . I support SSM, but acknowledge it as a change from the status quo. But one of the tests for due process protection is that a particular practice is deeply rooted in the history and tradition of the nation. For example, forbidding marriage based on political affiliation has no basis at all in our history. Forbidding marriage to a partner of the same sex does. And that test is one that's enshrined in law. A right is that for which denial of it has a legal remedy. One of the reasons I am for SS marriage is they do not have the right to marry the person of their choice - they are obliged, if they do choose to marry, they would have to select from a pool of people they would not choose. Because gay people, as opposed to heterosexual people, are distinguished by the fact that they are drawn romantically and sexually to persons of their own sex.
Several state courts have found such a right grounded in their state constitutions. In some of them, the electorate has subsequently approved an amendment advising the courts that their interpretation was mistaken. In three, the ruling has survived: Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Iowa. Two other states have SSM by legislative action as opposed to court ruling. when SSM comes about by judicial rule, it's acceptance is tenuous and may well be voted down by the electorate. Indeed, to date the electorate has never accepted an SSM bill.
I have been thrilled to see New Hampshire and Vermont take action by their legislatures, which are (or supposed to be) the voice of the people. This is the way change should come, for practical and ideological reasons. And will avoid the religious right running around screaming, "activist judges"!.
I feel that the proper mode of instituting SSM is through the legislature, not the courts. And I favor SSM provided that the legislature (or presumably a referendum where legal) enacts it. While there is a fundamental right to marry, it is not without limitation. We may not marry father to daughters, or sons to mothers, or brothers to sisters. It's not an absolute right. It's a right that society constrains.
I support SSM with the distinction that it's not an unlimited right. I cannot marry a person already married. I can't marry a close relative. It's a right that's defined and constrained by law. If you do consider marriage a right, there needs to be a remedy available for being denied that right. If the marriage you seek is authorized by law, since the right flows form that law. There is no legal remedy if I wish to marry a person already married, or if I wish to marry my niece. If the marriage I seek is not authorized by law, then there is no right to that marriage, and no remedy for denial of it. This can be done. But it cant be shoved down peoples throats. There can be a seperate concept inshrined in strict case law, which intern can aleviate many fears held by opponents. This WILL happen eventually.
I do feel for SS couples that have been together their whole life and are close to death with no legal remedys. So, I do see their taking it to the courts as justifiable in a sense. And I do agree that "civil unions" may be the starting point. The Netherlands enacted civil unions in 1992 and five years later, SS marriage. But I still believe the court should not make policy. When new gorund must be broken if our notion of self-governance is to mean anything, it must come from the legislature.
THAT is what I believe.