What is the mode of action of acupuncture from a science-based perspective?

[fuzzybabybunny]

I'm a person of science and have a strong interest in things like microbiology, organic chemistry, etc.

My mom's side of the family is almost entirely traditional Chinese medicine doctors. They mostly do acupuncture.

They're all incredibly successful. My cousin sees 40 patients a day and earns $800k+ a year. This is similar to my other family members. They have numerous repeat patients over the years and more than a fair share are patients who are incredibly sceptical at first and are only doing it because they were pushed into it by someone else, and these types get converted after they experience the benefits.

My family members admit that there are things that acupuncture does not work well for and will gladly refer patients to outside Western doctors. They also admit that they can't explain why it works on the basis of body chemistry. They also can't explain why it has worked on *pets.*

I've read the numerous studies of acupuncture not working when compared to a placebo. I also know that there are many unskilled acupuncturists and quality varies greatly. Considering their level of success I'm inclined to think that my family members are skilled.

Based on so many success stories in my family alone I find it very hard to attribute all of this to placebo. Considering this works on animals I'm even more confounded.

Does anyone have any data on why acupuncture seems to work?

 

[whm1974]

Works for what? Temporary pain relieve? Well maybe... But if sticking needles all over your back actually did something, Western medicine would be using it.

 

[TheELF]

They also admit that they can't explain why it works on the basis of body chemistry.

Don't they target points were nerves either pass through or end?
That's what I always believed,not that I know anything about it but that's what I got from watching TV,you have problems with some part of your body they cover the whole path of the nerve that's connected with it.
It's just a stimulus to the nerve that then fires more or less or whatever.

 

[whm1974]

Don't they target points were nerves either pass through or end?
That's what I always believed,not that I know anything about it but that's what I got from watching TV,you have problems with some part of your body they cover the whole path of the nerve that's connected with it.
It's just a stimulus to the nerve that then fires more or less or whatever.

At best I see acupuncture as Chinese Folk Medicine, and at worst outright quackery.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ca...re-is-nothing-more-than-an-elaborate-placebo/

 

[whm1974]

Even better article:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Even better article:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/

Yeah, I get what the articles are trying to say. I've read them.

But it still doesn't do anything to explain the absolute sheer success of my family members' acupuncture practices and how effective it has been for the hundreds of patients that they see and all the referrals they continue to get. Nor does it do anything to explain why acupuncture continues to be so widely and repeatedly used in Eastern cultures.

Acupuncture is almost always the last line of resort for my family's patients. They've exhausted Western medicine treatments and they finally end up finding relief with acupuncture.

I find it hard to say something is complete quackery when an entire Eastern half of the world has used it to great effect for hundreds of years.

For example, one of my mom's specialties is smoking cessation. She gets a patient who wants to quit smoking and after a few acupuncture sessions when the smoker uses a cigarette they suddenly taste awful, far worse than it used to ever taste. I mean, that's simply what ends up happening. *shrugs*

 

[whm1974]

Yeah, I get what the articles are trying to say. I've read them.

But it still doesn't do anything to explain the absolute sheer success of my family members' acupuncture practices and how effective it has been for the hundreds of patients that they see and all the referrals they continue to get. Nor does it do anything to explain why acupuncture continues to be so widely and repeatedly used in Eastern cultures.

Acupuncture is almost always the last line of resort for my family's patients. They've exhausted Western medicine treatments and they finally end up finding relief with acupuncture.

I find it hard to say something is complete quackery when an entire Eastern half of the world has used it to great effect for hundreds of years.

For example, one of my mom's specialties is smoking cessation. She gets a patient who wants to quit smoking and after a few acupuncture sessions when the smoker uses a cigarette they suddenly taste awful, far worse than it used to ever taste. I mean, that's simply what ends up happening. *shrugs*

Confirmation bias:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Confirmation bias:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Definitely not. Re-read my OP. A ton of these patients come in with the exact opposite of bias - they're anti-acupuncture and have been pushed into it and they still get the same effects because there's actually something going on that's independent of mental state.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Confirmation bias also doesn't explain why acupuncture works on animals.

 

[whm1974]

Definitely not. Re-read my OP. A ton of these patients come in with the exact opposite of bias - they're anti-acupuncture and have been pushed into it and they still get the same effects because there's actually something going on that's independent of mental state.

How persuasive are your family members who practice acupuncture?

 

[whm1974]

Confirmation bias also doesn't explain why acupuncture works on animals.

I would like to see a proper study done on this.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

How persuasive are your family members who practice acupuncture?

They're not persuasive at all. In terms of marketing their practice, it's all word of mouth from other patients. My mom doesn't even speak English very well. My cousin who sees 40 patients a day, when a patient asks her why something works, is to say "I don't know why it works. I just put the needles where the books tell me to."

They're far less persuasive than a typical Western doctor who can sometimes go into the microbiology of why something is happening and cite studies.

And as far as bias goes, Western medicine, with all of its studies and scientific backing, should have the biggest amount of confirmation bias. Acupuncture in comparison basically has mysticism.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

I would like to see a proper study done on this.

So would I. Simply discounting acupuncture as confirmation bias then is obviously anathema to getting a proper study done.

 

[whm1974]

So would I. Simply discounting acupuncture as confirmation bias then is obviously anathema to getting a proper study done.

No it is not. Multiple studies with large sample sizes along with double blind trials are done to reduce bias and to rule out other causes.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

No it is not. Multiple studies with large sample sizes along with double blind trials are done to reduce bias and to rule out other causes.

Sure it does. Obviously.

If you scoff at something and discount it as quackery and confirmation bias the chances of having a good study done are slim.

If on the other hand you go in with the mindset of "ok, there seems to be effects for people, so we need to better understand the mechanism of action," you can begin to design good experiments and actually get somewhere.

Re-read my OP. Re-read the title.

I ask "what is the mode of action?" which precipitated from the fact that there seems to be so many success stories yet no solid scientific explanation for why. As a rational person I can't discount acupuncture in the face of all these results. There needs to be an explanation that doesn't involve chi or energy flows or whatever.

Your response is "there isn't any because it's quackery."

Science isn't going to get anywhere with this kind of mentality.

I see this as the biggest sticking point.

Western medicine and Western thinkers are too quick to discount this immediately as mysticism without doing mechanism of action studies. Eastern medicine is perfectly happy to explain it in terms of energy flow which doesn't do anything in terms of furthering actual scientific knowledge. Both sides disdain each other and nothing new is learned, so it's no wonder that there aren't any good studies being done on this.

 

[whm1974]

Sure it does. Obviously.

If you scoff at something and discount it as quackery and confirmation bias the chances of having a good study done are slim.

If on the other hand you go in with the mindset of "ok, there seems to be effects for people, so we need to better understand the mechanism of action," you can begin to design good experiments and actually get somewhere.

Re-read my OP. Re-read the title.

I ask "what is the mode of action?" which precipitated from the fact that there seems to be so many success stories yet no solid scientific explanation for why. As a rational person I can't discount acupuncture in the face of all these results. There needs to be an explanation that doesn't involve chi or energy flows or whatever.

Your response is "there isn't any because it's quackery."

Science isn't going to get anywhere with this kind of mentality.

I see this as the biggest sticking point.

Western medicine and Western thinkers are too quick to discount this immediately as mysticism without doing mechanism of action studies. Eastern medicine is perfectly happy to explain it in terms of energy flow which doesn't do anything in terms of furthering actual scientific knowledge. Both sides disdain each other and nothing new is learned, so it's no wonder that there aren't any good studies being done on this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence-based_medicine

It is up to the person who is making the claim to provide evidence, not the other person to disprove it.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I see a great sports acupuncturist. Many Boston professional and collegiate athletes see him as well as professional ice skaters. He uses electrical stimulation on the needles to force deep muscle contractions to help generate blood flow for healing. He has helped me tremendously with my back and leg issues.

 

[whm1974]

I see a great sports acupuncturist. Many Boston professional and collegiate athletes see him as well as professional ice skaters. He uses electrical stimulation on the needles to force deep muscle contractions to help generate blood flow for healing. He had helped me tremendously with my back and leg issues.

Something like that can actually work unlike traditional Chinese medicine acupuncture, which is based basically based on just people wanting to believe instead of hard science.

 

[chaoticbeliever]

From what I understand, it is not only acupuncture but acupressure as well, in a whole treatment of the body, not just for certain complaints.

I met a guy in Canada who did it but not had any luck since then. Also need someone who does deep tissue massage, MIL coming to visit and has muscle complaints.

 

[Scarpozzi]

https://youtu.be/IPvH6Q7KNxs