What is the LEAST firepower you can afford to take down a full adult Grizzly Bear?

[jagec]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
you left out which direction that force was measured from. sure the femur is strong. in what direction? obviously it is much weaker when it comes to forces applied to it from the side. dare i say if i wack that femur with concrete from the side it snaps

and yes i know bone is a structure of fibers making it stronger then a simple brittle shell, it has give.. but still, we're talking bullets here, not a drop on the head.

well obviously if u load a man with enough metal that he cannot move he can become somewhat bullet proof its besides the point. we're talking relatively thin metal which is stronger then bone yet still easily penetrated by bullets. you may quibble about the weeniest of bullets, but most half decent ones have more penetration power then you want to admit

IIRC bone is slightly anisotropic, but not as much as you'd think.

Remember, we're talking about the structure of the material itself here, not the overall structure of the bone since obviously femurs and skulls are built to withstand different forces. A square sample cut from a femur exibits similar behavior in various directions. And it will be even more similar in a sample cut from a different (non-long) bone.

A bear's skull is somewhat eggshell-shaped, and thus able to withstand forces from a number of directions. The bone is isotropic enough that thickness is the primary determinant of strength, not orientation.

Your assumption that "well, it's a bullet! OBVIOUSLY it would penetrate!" is ill-framed. Not all bullets are created equal, which is half the point of this thread.

As for the thickness, tht's EXACTLY the point. Thin metal can be penetrated by bullets, thick metal cannot. It's exactly the same for bone, thickness adds strength. Your problem is that "strength" is not well-defined. Metal is HARDER than bone, and more ductile, but overall strength is determined by more than just physical properties.

 

[KevinH]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: amoeba
you really think the bear would stop moving after taking 1 hit?

according to the terms of the OP, the bear is stationary when you first shoot, and only starts running towards you when you hit it and fail to kill it.

yup dependswhere u hit it. no animals brain is armored or something crazy heh

The skull is strong eough to deflect a lot of common rounds.

I'd want something with a huge amount of muzzle energy to try a one shot kill at that distance.

what rounds are so weak that they'd bounce off my skull? only way i'd see that to be true is in freak cases where u graze the skull or the bullets lost its energy through other materials or richochet.

Wow. Just wow. At least your'e rational in the P&N threads .

 

[KC5AV]

I have known people who have hunted bear. I used to know a guy who killed something like the 13th largest Kodiak in Alaska. There are plenty of stories of bullets bouncing off the skull of a bear. As someone pointed out, there is little surface to get a good, solid, direct hit. If the angles are correct, a bullet will bounce off of just about anything.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: KC5AV
I have known people who have hunted bear. I used to know a guy who killed something like the 13th largest Kodiak in Alaska. There are plenty of stories of bullets bouncing off the skull of a bear. As someone pointed out, there is little surface to get a good, solid, direct hit. If the angles are correct, a bullet will bounce off of just about anything.

Exactly, you would need to be standing above the bear's head shooting right down onto the top of it for a handgun bullet to have any hope of penetrating. Even then, I think the only handgun capable of this would be .44 magnum or hotter.

 

[bleuless]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Actually, a car door will not stop a .22 rimfire. I know this for fact. I once shot the roof off an old Buick using nothing but a Ruger 10/22 and a brick of ammo. .22 will go right through the thin metal skin of a car door.

depends on the car.

 

[KC5AV]

and someone was talking about the Smith&Wesson .500... you have to be careful with that one. When I first heard about that gun, it was because people were taking it lion hunting. One hunter got mauled because the recoil broke his wrist.

 

[BadNewsBears]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: K1052
Ssshhhhh....

Come on Jules, let evolution do it's thing.

Hehehe, there would be a lot of dead ATOTers judging by the responses in this thread.

I'll give you people a hint. You can rule out pretty much all the handguns with the exception of maybe a .500 S&W or a .454 Casull. I wouldn't stand in a field 50 yards from a Grizzly with ANY handgun though.

From the service guys I knew, .45 AGP could stop a Kodiak. I would think .40 in something like Highway Patrol ball would do. Hollow-Points are right out. BUT, I also found a note on a Griz that took 6 .44Mags and mauled the guy. Too close for RPGs.

We have another corpse over here!!!

Your service friends don't know what they are talking about. .45 ACP is one of the slowest handgun calibers only moving at about 900 fps. It is very effective at stopping humans because it is a rather large slug but it would do jack to a bear.

Pulled up the tables on .45 AGP. Definitely an insecurity blanket. Under 400 ft-lb when it arrives. Thought the .40 was higher than that. Should have looked it up. Well, if the bear has any ticks hanging on, it will do them some serious damage.

Must have told the old granddad to wear his service weapon and did not 'splain that it just was there to make sure he did not leave it in his quarters.

So, play dead for a griz, fight a black bear.

BTW-It's .45 ACP.

ACP stands for Automatic Colt Pistol.

Jules, been outta the game. Theres acp AND AGP Automatic Colt Pistol AND Automatic Glock Pistol Check it out

 

[Chainzsaw]

"What is the LEAST firepower you can afford to take down a full adult Grizzly Bear?"

My BEAR HANDS!

 

[VegasF6]

Actually, that part of the story on Snopes is false, if you read down farther you will see he used a single shot to the head with a 338 win mag, not a full mag of 7mm as purported. However, I would probably feel safe with a 7mm mag, it is a hell of a gun, even though it is a relatively light bullet. Really more made for distance than stopping power.

As to the .338 win mag, why mess around with that, step up to the .338 rem ultra mag. Hotter load.

Also, I have shot the .454 (the Ruger) and holy turds what a load. If I was limited to handguns, that would sure be it. With a red dot scope, 5 rounds of that.


Here is a similar discussion going on (rather outdated) about hunting polar bears which are larger than grizzly's. Supposedly they have been taken down with .357 and .44 mag. You will find many accounts of this. The difference is though, they usually weren't only 50 feet away!

Just do some research and you will see that black bears, tropy size brown bears, polar bears etc have all been taken down with large caliber handguns. It is simply ridiculous to claim they would "bounce off" a bears skull. We are talking over 1500 lbs of energy combined into less than half an inch.

Also, it would be very rare to run into a grizzly at 1600 lbs. Not impossible, but a real trophy. And it would be a male, which would be less agressive than the female.

Cheers!
VegasF6

 

[Evadman]

Originally posted by: gsellis
"Look! An Eagle!" Kick

BWhahahahahahaha! That commercial was Choice!

 

[VegasF6]

He said 22 short, not long rifle.

 

[Evadman]

The minimum I would take would be a .50 BMG full auto with tripod, belt fed from a 500 round ammo can.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
argh.... bone is bone. one isn't ceramic and one paper good lord. small difference in thickness yes, but theres a reason why we don't have knights in shining armor anymore, bullets are freakin strong.

I don't know which is more appalling, your knowledge of biology, or of material science.

prove me wrong genius.

Actually, he is pretty close. My cousin is a doc in NY and he told me a story once about a gunshot victim he had in the ER. Single shot to the torso and it looked pretty minor on the outside, but when they xrayed him or whatever, they found that the bullet had bounced around inside his rib cage and tore up his internal organs.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Munchies

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: K1052
Ssshhhhh....

Come on Jules, let evolution do it's thing.

Hehehe, there would be a lot of dead ATOTers judging by the responses in this thread.

I'll give you people a hint. You can rule out pretty much all the handguns with the exception of maybe a .500 S&W or a .454 Casull. I wouldn't stand in a field 50 yards from a Grizzly with ANY handgun though.

From the service guys I knew, .45 AGP could stop a Kodiak. I would think .40 in something like Highway Patrol ball would do. Hollow-Points are right out. BUT, I also found a note on a Griz that took 6 .44Mags and mauled the guy. Too close for RPGs.

We have another corpse over here!!!

Your service friends don't know what they are talking about. .45 ACP is one of the slowest handgun calibers only moving at about 900 fps. It is very effective at stopping humans because it is a rather large slug but it would do jack to a bear.

Pulled up the tables on .45 AGP. Definitely an insecurity blanket. Under 400 ft-lb when it arrives. Thought the .40 was higher than that. Should have looked it up. Well, if the bear has any ticks hanging on, it will do them some serious damage.

Must have told the old granddad to wear his service weapon and did not 'splain that it just was there to make sure he did not leave it in his quarters.

So, play dead for a griz, fight a black bear.

BTW-It's .45 ACP.

ACP stands for Automatic Colt Pistol.

Jules, been outta the game. Theres acp AND AGP Automatic Colt Pistol AND Automatic Glock Pistol Check it out

.45 ACP is a handgun caliber bullet, it's been around for almost a century. There is no such thing as .45 AGP. You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: VegasF6
Actually, that part of the story on Snopes is false, if you read down farther you will see he used a single shot to the head with a 338 win mag, not a full mag of 7mm as purported. However, I would probably feel safe with a 7mm mag, it is a hell of a gun, even though it is a relatively light bullet. Really more made for distance than stopping power.

As to the .338 win mag, why mess around with that, step up to the .338 rem ultra mag. Hotter load.

Also, I have shot the .454 (the Ruger) and holy turds what a load. If I was limited to handguns, that would sure be it. With a red dot scope, 5 rounds of that.


Here is a similar discussion going on (rather outdated) about hunting polar bears which are larger than grizzly's. Supposedly they have been taken down with .357 and .44 mag. You will find many accounts of this. The difference is though, they usually weren't only 50 feet away!

Just do some research and you will see that black bears, tropy size brown bears, polar bears etc have all been taken down with large caliber handguns. It is simply ridiculous to claim they would "bounce off" a bears skull. We are talking over 1500 lbs of energy combined into less than half an inch.

Also, it would be very rare to run into a grizzly at 1600 lbs. Not impossible, but a real trophy. And it would be a male, which would be less agressive than the female.

Cheers!
VegasF6

I've fired a handgun chambered in .454 Casull. It's a very potent hunting caliber. I wouldn't hunt grizzly with it though. Anyone who has brought down a polar bear with a .357 magnum was damned lucky in my opinion. Quite frankly, I think that would be a one in a million shot. If I were hiking in bear country I'd have at least this on me (yes, that is my handgun).

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Munchies

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: K1052
Ssshhhhh....

Come on Jules, let evolution do it's thing.

Hehehe, there would be a lot of dead ATOTers judging by the responses in this thread.

I'll give you people a hint. You can rule out pretty much all the handguns with the exception of maybe a .500 S&W or a .454 Casull. I wouldn't stand in a field 50 yards from a Grizzly with ANY handgun though.

From the service guys I knew, .45 AGP could stop a Kodiak. I would think .40 in something like Highway Patrol ball would do. Hollow-Points are right out. BUT, I also found a note on a Griz that took 6 .44Mags and mauled the guy. Too close for RPGs.

We have another corpse over here!!!

Your service friends don't know what they are talking about. .45 ACP is one of the slowest handgun calibers only moving at about 900 fps. It is very effective at stopping humans because it is a rather large slug but it would do jack to a bear.

Pulled up the tables on .45 AGP. Definitely an insecurity blanket. Under 400 ft-lb when it arrives. Thought the .40 was higher than that. Should have looked it up. Well, if the bear has any ticks hanging on, it will do them some serious damage.

Must have told the old granddad to wear his service weapon and did not 'splain that it just was there to make sure he did not leave it in his quarters.

So, play dead for a griz, fight a black bear.

BTW-It's .45 ACP.

ACP stands for Automatic Colt Pistol.

Jules, been outta the game. Theres acp AND AGP Automatic Colt Pistol AND Automatic Glock Pistol Check it out

.45 ACP is a handgun caliber bullet, it's been around for almost a century. There is no such thing as .45 AGP. You don't know what you're talking about.

Ah, Munchies digs himself into yet another gun-related hole.

He is thinking of the .45 GAP (Glock Automatic Pistol) that the gun rags have been so hot over lately.

 

[Brutuskend]

444 Marlin

 

[Chainzsaw]

Two words:

Metal Storm

 

[JulesMaximus]

Here is a nice comparison of a .300 WinMag, .44 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP and 9mm round. The .300 Win Mag is considered adequate to bring down any of the largest game on the North American continent...with the possible exception of full grown grizzly bears. The .300 WinMag has a muzzle velocity of around 3200 feet per second and a typical bullet weight of 180 gr. The .44 magnum has a muzzle velocity of around 1400 feet per second and a typical bullet weight of 230 gr. The .45 ACP has a muzzle velocity of around 900 fps and a typical bullet weight of 230 gr.

The .300 Win Magnum bullet is designed to penetrate the tough hide and bone of large game and stop them dead in their tracks. There are .44 mag rounds designed for hunting and people do use this caliber to hunt deer, wild boar and brown/black bear but you'd be nuts to expect to bring down a grizzly with anything less than this. Quite frankly, I think you'd be nuts to hunt grizzly with a .44 magnum handgun unless you had a guide with you packing a .338 Win Mag rifle to back you up.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: VegasF6
Actually, that part of the story on Snopes is false, if you read down farther you will see he used a single shot to the head with a 338 win mag, not a full mag of 7mm as purported. However, I would probably feel safe with a 7mm mag, it is a hell of a gun, even though it is a relatively light bullet. Really more made for distance than stopping power.

As to the .338 win mag, why mess around with that, step up to the .338 rem ultra mag. Hotter load.

Also, I have shot the .454 (the Ruger) and holy turds what a load. If I was limited to handguns, that would sure be it. With a red dot scope, 5 rounds of that.


Here is a similar discussion going on (rather outdated) about hunting polar bears which are larger than grizzly's. Supposedly they have been taken down with .357 and .44 mag. You will find many accounts of this. The difference is though, they usually weren't only 50 feet away!

Just do some research and you will see that black bears, tropy size brown bears, polar bears etc have all been taken down with large caliber handguns. It is simply ridiculous to claim they would "bounce off" a bears skull. We are talking over 1500 lbs of energy combined into less than half an inch.

Also, it would be very rare to run into a grizzly at 1600 lbs. Not impossible, but a real trophy. And it would be a male, which would be less agressive than the female.

Cheers!
VegasF6

thankyou, finally someone with a a little common sense. someone who isn't shocked and appalled that at the idea of a bullet actually penetrating a skull lol

Actually, he is pretty close. My cousin is a doc in NY and he told me a story once about a gunshot victim he had in the ER. Single shot to the torso and it looked pretty minor on the outside, but when they xrayed him or whatever, they found that the bullet had bounced around inside his rib cage and tore up his internal organs.

as said before, it depends. smaller rounds esp those that mushroom can and will bounce around inside someone, thats the whole point really, to use up the energy in the flesh and not waste it by going through and through. thats the whole point of tumbling/mushrooming rounds.. that being said.. passing through muscle and flesh before richocheting off bones will have sapped energy.... a bullet smacking your skull doesnt have to go through anything first, it will simply knock a hole in ur noggin.

 

[JMaster]

2 hadukens, then an ALLLLLLL YOU CAN uppercut!!

 

[Sahakiel]

MIRACL or COIL at full operational capacity

 

[Slappy00]

A Loaded lamp..... works on bald-headed bears afaik

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: VegasF6
Actually, that part of the story on Snopes is false, if you read down farther you will see he used a single shot to the head with a 338 win mag, not a full mag of 7mm as purported. However, I would probably feel safe with a 7mm mag, it is a hell of a gun, even though it is a relatively light bullet. Really more made for distance than stopping power.

As to the .338 win mag, why mess around with that, step up to the .338 rem ultra mag. Hotter load.

Also, I have shot the .454 (the Ruger) and holy turds what a load. If I was limited to handguns, that would sure be it. With a red dot scope, 5 rounds of that.


Here is a similar discussion going on (rather outdated) about hunting polar bears which are larger than grizzly's. Supposedly they have been taken down with .357 and .44 mag. You will find many accounts of this. The difference is though, they usually weren't only 50 feet away!

Just do some research and you will see that black bears, tropy size brown bears, polar bears etc have all been taken down with large caliber handguns. It is simply ridiculous to claim they would "bounce off" a bears skull. We are talking over 1500 lbs of energy combined into less than half an inch.

Also, it would be very rare to run into a grizzly at 1600 lbs. Not impossible, but a real trophy. And it would be a male, which would be less agressive than the female.

Cheers!
VegasF6

thankyou, finally someone with a a little common sense. someone who isn't shocked and appalled that at the idea of a bullet actually penetrating a skull lol

Actually, he is pretty close. My cousin is a doc in NY and he told me a story once about a gunshot victim he had in the ER. Single shot to the torso and it looked pretty minor on the outside, but when they xrayed him or whatever, they found that the bullet had bounced around inside his rib cage and tore up his internal organs.

as said before, it depends. smaller rounds esp those that mushroom can and will bounce around inside someone, thats the whole point really, to use up the energy in the flesh and not waste it by going through and through. thats the whole point of tumbling/mushrooming rounds.. that being said.. passing through muscle and flesh before richocheting off bones will have sapped energy. a bullet smacking your skull doesnt have to go through anything first, it will simply knock a hole in ur noggin.

Sapped energy? You know what you're talking about?

 

[XNice]

man jus gimme my glock 9mm, slap on an automatic slide on it, and 4 full 32 round clips of hollows.... you say movement is nil but im assuming you can strafe(best as possible wit a grizzly swipin at you). All i need if a good 2 bursts in his head and i know imma get the first burst into it.

Matter fact, f it! full autowalk TOWARDS HIM and hold triger down and aim somewhere near its head. I doubt a 1500lb grizzly will eat a 32 round clip of hollows and walk again.