What is the difference between believing in Aliens and believing in God?

[Vic]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Vic
Drake Equation

Actually, I'd have to say that that equation is actually correct. The question arises, as pointed out by Arcex, in the assignment of the inherently arbitrary coefficients. As with any mathematical model, only through data collection can we optimize the relevant constants in the equations..

I wasn't necessarily knocking the equation, just the belief that it can be solved for anything remotely based on evidence.

Originally posted by: Arcex
Lack of proof is not proof of lack.

I forget who said that, but its a valid point. One cannot look at a picture of the Hubble Ultra Deep Field survey, with one picture showing DOZENS of individual galaxies, without thinking that somewhere, in just one of those galaxies, is a planet (or other suitable stellar mass) capable of supporting some form of life or another.

Another very good post, but if you said "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" here on this board, the majority of posters would automatically assume you were a theist, i.e. a believer in God.
That you are using the same argument to defend a belief in aliens is IMO quite amusing, and once again proves my point.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: bsobel
First off, a belief in other life in the universe doesn't break any laws of physics. Belief in an imaginary all powerfull, all knowing, all everywhere being doesn't have any physical basis to justify it. That is a huge difference between the two.

You could actually consider the existence of such a being as the governing assumption in all of physics. Without said being, nothing could exist and we wouldn't have physics.

Originally posted by: wchou
OUr existence Is proof enough that aliens exist!!!


KNOW wHy?


WE ARE THE ALIEN.

AMEN.

Remember kids, don't do drugs.:laugh:

Originally posted by: raildogg
Believing in god requires faith while for the most part, believing in aliens requires hard evidence. Many people in the world have seen both and believe both exist. A lot of people attribute their health successes or personal successes to god, they believe that god helped them on their journey. People throughout the world have seen "godly" things, such as the sightings of Mary by a lot of people.

I believe that there is a god and there are aliens. Can I prove that is the definite truth? No, but I have faith in god and logic suggests that aliens exist. There are trillions of galaxies and countless planets and stars in the universe, it is likely that somewhere out there, there is a intelligent form of life. Also our government knows more about aliens than most of us but they're hiding something. Harry Truman set up a agency solely to seek information on aliens and keep that information from the public.

Science and religion cannot fuse together, but there is a place for both of them. Religion is a way of keeping order and balance in life for many people. The Roman Catholic church defeated the Huns when the Roman Army couldn't. It won by peace and understanding. Science has moved man forward while religion has kept man's evil nature under control to a certain extent. Does man use religion as a scapegoat to kill other men? Of course. But man also uses race, ethnicity, social status and nationalism to kill other man. To say religion is the cause of all killings is just absurd.

Many people believe that Aristotle proved the existence of a god for a long time. Many mathematicians say that the concept of god is real.

Billions of people who are diverse intellectually believe there is a creator, or god. But that doesn't make it true, does it? It's all about your faith. To those who say that if there is a god, why did he allow 9/11 or the tsunami? Because there is free will. God created a imperfect world full of imperfect men. It was a grand scheme, he wanted man to be his partner in all of this.

:thumbsup: Very nice post.

I could also argue that evidence for a supreme being is everywhere. The failure is in our ability to quantify it as such. Our own limits of observation are what hold us back from understanding this. I could also point out scientific studies of 'miracles' that would lend further credence to the existence of god(s), but as I mentioned in another thread, for those with faith this is extraneous, for those without it is insufficient.

 

[bsobel]

Thats sad. Here we are, for the first time ever able to prove the existance of extra-solar systems. Cataloged and documented a dozen worlds now, and have plans on the boards for devices that could detect earth like planets in the next 20 years. We've had models for 50 years showing that these planets should be common, but we could never prove it. Now we have and the models are holding up fine. So, I don't see how anyone who remotely understands the science (and so far all of your responses have been your opinion, not any science at all) could 'rest my case' on that point.

Bill

Oh c'mon... who's responding with opinion? You just don't like what we're hearing. Until we find this other planet with life on it, then belief in alien life is nothing more than just that, a belief. Martin practically proved that for me, hence I could rest my case.

What part of my post is opinion?

The fact that we've found 154 extra solar planets encompassing 136 systems?

The fact that we are planning devices to detect earth size/type worlds in the future?

The fact that are models suggest that planets and habital planets should be fairly common in the universe?

The fact that we've begun to prove the models? (see above links)

Again, not sure where the opinion was in my response....
Bill

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: raildogg
To those who say that if there is a god, why did he allow 9/11 or the tsunami? Because there is free will.

How does that imply that there is free will?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
There's more evidence for aliens. We know life exists on earth and that earth is one of an incomprehensible amount of worlds. This suggests that there is a chance there is alien life on other worlds. There is no such evidence for god.

Drake Equation again. Speculative odds are not evidence. And oh btw the exact same evidence does exist for God. All I would have to say is how could the universe be so grand perfect and there not be a Creator and I would have said the EXACT same thing that you just said in defense of your belief in aliens.

 

[jhu]

the difference is that it is theoretically possible to prove that aliens exist, but it is not practicle whereas it is neither theoretically or practically possible to prove that god exists.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: OS
The existence of aliens can/is/will be a testable idea.

Existence of God, well, someone explain to me how to prove that.

I'm curious how we will test the existence of alien life. Do please explain.

Come on, you need someone to explain this to you?

What if we send enough lab equipment to mars or bring back enough rocks to detect microbial life?

What if we get a signal from space that starts listing out prime numbers?

What if some strange probe crashes on the moon with no apparent roots in human space programs?

what if an alien ship flies up to your house and decides to blow up your neighboorhood?


I'm not saying I believe in alien life, I don't know that it exists. But to say alien life is unprovable takes some serious head in the sand thinking. At anyrate it's much easier to prove than the existence of god.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Thats sad. Here we are, for the first time ever able to prove the existance of extra-solar systems. Cataloged and documented a dozen worlds now, and have plans on the boards for devices that could detect earth like planets in the next 20 years. We've had models for 50 years showing that these planets should be common, but we could never prove it. Now we have and the models are holding up fine. So, I don't see how anyone who remotely understands the science (and so far all of your responses have been your opinion, not any science at all) could 'rest my case' on that point.

Bill

Oh c'mon... who's responding with opinion? You just don't like what we're hearing. Until we find this other planet with life on it, then belief in alien life is nothing more than just that, a belief. Martin practically proved that for me, hence I could rest my case.

What part of my post is opinion?

The fact that we've found 154 extra solar planets encompassing 136 systems?

The fact that we are planning devices to detect earth size/type worlds in the future?

The fact that are models suggest that planets and habital planets should be fairly common in the universe?

The fact that we've begun to prove the models? (see above links)

Again, not sure where the opinion was in my response....
Bill

Allow me to demonstrate where you are using opinion.

How many astrological bodies are there in our own solar system? How many contain life? How then does the addition of more bodies increase the likelihood of alien life?

I'm not against you on this (as I personally believe in the possibility of alien life), I think you're just missing the jist of my argument. Aliens are belief, not fact. Like God.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Vic
Drake Equation again. Speculative odds are not evidence. And oh btw the exact same evidence does exist for God. All I would have to say is how could the universe be so grand perfect and there not be a Creator and I would have said the EXACT same thing that you just said in defense of your belief in aliens.

Exactly. I think this is the point you were trying to make all along, but this is the best statement of it. On the one hand you have the gambler's fallacy, on the other Pascal's Wager. 😛

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: OS
The existence of aliens can/is/will be a testable idea.

Existence of God, well, someone explain to me how to prove that.

I'm curious how we will test the existence of alien life. Do please explain.

Come on, you need someone to explain this to you?

What if we send enough lab equipment to mars or bring back enough rocks to detect microbial life?

What if we get a signal from space that starts listing out prime numbers?

What if some strange probe crashes on the moon with no apparent roots in human space programs?

what if an alien ship flies up to your house and decides to blow up your neighboorhood?


I'm not saying I believe in alien life, I don't know that it exists. But to say alien life is unprovable takes some serious head in the sand thinking. At anyrate it's much easier to prove than the existence of god.

"What if?" "What if?" :roll:

What if the Second Coming of Christ occurred tomorrow?

:roll:

 

[Arcex]

First thing I'd do is shave and get a haircut.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: OS
The existence of aliens can/is/will be a testable idea.

Existence of God, well, someone explain to me how to prove that.

I'm curious how we will test the existence of alien life. Do please explain.

Come on, you need someone to explain this to you?

What if we send enough lab equipment to mars or bring back enough rocks to detect microbial life?

What if we get a signal from space that starts listing out prime numbers?

What if some strange probe crashes on the moon with no apparent roots in human space programs?

what if an alien ship flies up to your house and decides to blow up your neighboorhood?


I'm not saying I believe in alien life, I don't know that it exists. But to say alien life is unprovable takes some serious head in the sand thinking. At anyrate it's much easier to prove than the existence of god.

"What if?" "What if?" :roll:

What if the Second Coming of Christ occurred tomorrow?

:roll:

The difference is, we just have to develop more technology to look in more detail. And the more technology we develop, the easier such evidence will be to find.

No matter how hard you look, it's not going to make the 2nd coming come any sooner.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: bsobel

Thats sad. Here we are, for the first time ever able to prove the existance of extra-solar systems. Cataloged and documented a dozen worlds now, and have plans on the boards for devices that could detect earth like planets in the next 20 years. We've had models for 50 years showing that these planets should be common, but we could never prove it. Now we have and the models are holding up fine. So, I don't see how anyone who remotely understands the science (and so far all of your responses have been your opinion, not any science at all) could 'rest my case' on that point.

Bill

Oh c'mon... who's responding with opinion? You just don't like what we're hearing. Until we find this other planet with life on it, then belief in alien life is nothing more than just that, a belief. Martin practically proved that for me, hence I could rest my case.

What part of my post is opinion?

The fact that we've found 154 extra solar planets encompassing 136 systems?

The fact that we are planning devices to detect earth size/type worlds in the future?

The fact that are models suggest that planets and habital planets should be fairly common in the universe?

The fact that we've begun to prove the models? (see above links)

Again, not sure where the opinion was in my response....
Bill

Allow me to demonstrate where you are using opinion.

How many astrological bodies are there in our own solar system? How many contain life? How then does the addition of more bodies increase the likelihood of alien life?

I'm not against you on this (as I personally believe in the possibility of alien life), I think you're just missing the jist of my argument. Aliens are belief, not fact. Like God.

We don't know how many bodies in our solar system hold life. Atleast one does.

Our space technology is crude and we can barely get a couple instruments to one body, left alone an entire lab everywhere.

In the next 50 years, we'll probably have a good idea if Mars atleast once held microbial life. If it turns out that 2 out of 9 in one solar system holds life, that has pretty interesting implications for the rest of the universe.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: OS
The difference is, we just have to develop more technology to look in more detail. And the more technology we develop, the easier such evidence will be to find.

No matter how hard you look, it's not going to make the 2nd coming come any sooner.

Neither does the development of this new technology make the existence of aliens more likely. That you think so is exactly what my argument is about, not over whether aliens do or do not exist, or whether God does or does not exist.

 

[bsobel]

How many astrological bodies are there in our own solar system? How many contain life? How then does the addition of more bodies increase the likelihood of alien life?

Of the four we have tested, 1 for sure (Earth), 1 very possible (Mars), two seem steril (Venus and the Moon, then again we didn't do much core drilling while we were there...). There are many other bodies in our own solar system which we have not had the technology to test. The technology has changed rapidly in the last 50 years, and will only continue to improve. So, we'll have a better answer to what your really asking within our lifetimes. As for proving god, no such improvement in the technology has occured within anyones lifetime.

Bill

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: OS
The difference is, we just have to develop more technology to look in more detail. And the more technology we develop, the easier such evidence will be to find.

No matter how hard you look, it's not going to make the 2nd coming come any sooner.

Neither does the development of this new technology make the existence of aliens more likely. That you think so is exactly what my argument is about, not over whether aliens do or do not exist, or whether God does or does not exist.

I never said development of technology increases likelihood of existence of alien life. It DOES increase the likelihood of DETECTION of alien life. You'd have to be pretty blind to think a stone age civilization can detect alien life. The converse is, who knows what level of space exploration we'll have achieved in 100 years or more. We can't even predict how much technology improves in a generation.

 

[bsobel]

Neither does the development of this new technology make the existence of aliens more likely.

Correct, it simply makes proving their existence more likely. The actual development of the technology would not be the cause for alien life (well, I'm sure in some unique branch of the multi-verse it does in some sort of cosmic parody, but thats a different discussion)

Bill

 

[Spencer278]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: OS
The difference is, we just have to develop more technology to look in more detail. And the more technology we develop, the easier such evidence will be to find.

No matter how hard you look, it's not going to make the 2nd coming come any sooner.

Neither does the development of this new technology make the existence of aliens more likely. That you think so is exactly what my argument is about, not over whether aliens do or do not exist, or whether God does or does not exist.

Clearly he is stating that advance will make it easyer to determine if there are Alien and not that building a better ship is going to create alians.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Vic
Drake Equation again. Speculativeodds are not evidence. And oh btw the exact same evidence does exist for God. All I would have to say is how could the universe be so grand and perfect and there not be a Creator and I would have said the EXACT same thing that you just said in defense of your belief in aliens.

Exactly. I think this is the point you were trying to make all along, but this is the best statement of it. On the one hand you have the gambler's fallacy, on the other Pascal's Wager. 😛

You got it.
Gambler's fallacy, which Drake's Equation if rife with.
Pascal's wager

Both involve forms of thinking false to logic, or if you prefer, faith. The gambler who thinks he's gonna roll a 7 simply because he hasn't rolled one in a long time is just as false as the person who thinks that a single statistical sample of 1 in 9 (or 2 in 9, if you prefer) will prove true throughout the entire universe.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Neither does the development of this new technology make the existence of aliens more likely.

Correct, it simply makes proving their existence more likely. The actual development of the technology would not be the cause for alien life (well, I'm sure in some unique branch of the multi-verse it does in some sort of cosmic parody, but thats a different discussion)

Bill

So why are you moving us away from my original argument? This is not about whether or not aliens exist or whether or not God exists. That is not this argument. This is about the hypocrisy of people who believe in aliens and claim that gives them logical superiority over those who believe in God.

 

[Last Rezort]

What is the first comming of christ was the second comming of christ?
there is no way for us to all agree on this topic because we cant have all the facts.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Vic
Drake Equation again. Speculativeodds are not evidence. And oh btw the exact same evidence does exist for God. All I would have to say is how could the universe be so grand and perfect and there not be a Creator and I would have said the EXACT same thing that you just said in defense of your belief in aliens.

Exactly. I think this is the point you were trying to make all along, but this is the best statement of it. On the one hand you have the gambler's fallacy, on the other Pascal's Wager. 😛

You got it.
Gambler's fallacy, which Drake's Equation if rife with.
Pascal's wager

Both involve forms of thinking false to logic, or if you prefer, faith. The gambler who thinks he's gonna roll a 7 simply because he hasn't rolled one in a long time is just as false as the person who thinks that a single statistical sample of 1 in 9 (or 2 in 9, if you prefer) will prove true throughout the entire universe.

heh, a 2 in 9 already disproves your entire premise and we'll probably know for sure within the 50 years.

 

[Zebo]

interesting thread just posting in to bookmark.

No evidence, that's interesting considering thousands of witnesses...but we have the same for UFO's sightings. IMO, If you're 100% committed you'll be 100% convinced after seeing the promises of the bible come to fruition thoughout your life. Try the experiment and test the promises. You won't regret it. You also could always die to test.

 

[her209]

If God exists, let him post in this thread.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: OS
heh, a 2 in 9 already disproves your entire premise and we'll probably know for sure within the 50 years.

Really? Like 5 heads in a row proves that the next flip will be tails? 😛