What is the chance for peace worth?

[Fencer128]

Hi,

I've been reading all your views on terrorism, peace plans and so forth (with regard to Israel/Palestine) of recent. I have a question that I'd appreciate if you looked over and answered (with more than a yes or no!).

"Would it be right to free all the Palestinian terrorist murderers/accomplices/planners Israel currently has hold of - everyone of them completely pardoned - if after a period of cease-fire and political engagement it looked as if this was one of the main routes to move a practical peace process forward?"

Cheers in advance,

Andy

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yes, but as you say, it would have to be a prolonged period of demonstrated good faith on both parts. I look at it like this. I can think of little I wouldn't do to protect my children if I felt them at risk, but if one was killed, I would release the murderer if I thought it would save a hundred more. I cannot bring back the dead, but if I could save other parents the loss I would.

 

[Warin]

That's a tough one to answer. It's hard to know how many of them are true terrorists and how many are political prisoners.

If a lasting peace begins to shape up, I think Israel could gain a lot of political and social 'attaboys' by releasing Palestinians that are political prisoners. People jailed not so much for what they have done as what the IDF assumes they will do.

I think anyone captured in commision of a crime should be treated like any criminal however. Someone who has commited a crime shouldnt be pardoned in the hopes of securing peace.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Fencer128
Hi,

I've been reading all your views on terrorism, peace plans and so forth (with regard to Israel/Palestine) of recent. I have a question that I'd appreciate if you looked over and answered (with more than a yes or no!).

"Would it be right to free all the Palestinian terrorist murderers/accomplices/planners Israel currently has hold of - everyone of them completely pardoned - if after a period of cease-fire and political engagement it looked as if this was one of the main routes to move a practical peace process forward?"

Cheers in advance,

Andy

That depends, are these alleged terrorists or are they proven terrorists? Of course if Israel has evidence to back up their claims that some person is a terrorist, perhaps with the process of a formal trial, they should be kept imprisoned or maybe transferred to Palestinian prison (after peace is assured, of course). The problem is with all the people Israel just claims are terrorist and detains them or even murders them without any evidence or trial. Those people should be released regardless of peace working or not!

 

[Fencer128]

That depends, are these alleged terrorists or are they proven terrorists? Of course if Israel has evidence to back up their claims that some person is a terrorist, perhaps with the process of a formal trial, they should be kept imprisoned or maybe transferred to Palestinian prison (after peace is assured, of course). The problem is with all the people Israel just claims are terrorist and detains them or even murders them without any evidence or trial. Those people should be released regardless of peace working or not!

Proven - imagine they confessed it.

Andy

 

[Fencer128]

I'm asking this question (and I was very careful about my wording ie "period of cease-fire and political engagement") because I believe - just as in NI - this is most likely going to be a n essential part of the process when, at somepoint, ceasefire(s) become serious, along with the political dialogue.

It also illustrates my point that you have to negotiate/concede with terrorists (as they must with authority) to get these things through to completion. No one likes seeing convicted murderers go free - but that may well be the price of peace and freedom - and I don't know how many people realise or can accept this.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Fencer128]

No one get any opinions on this?

Andy

 

[Alistar7]

you should never negotiate with a terrorist, you only give them legitimate power that way and tell them and every other terror group worldwide not only is it ok to conduct such acts, but by committing them you can achieve your goals. Bad precedent.....

There is nothing worng with slamming planes into buildings, you just have to do it enough until they invite you to the table...

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
you should never negotiate with a terrorist, you only give them legitimate power that way and tell them and every other terror group worldwide not only is it ok to conduct such acts, but by committing them you can achieve your goals. Bad precedent.....

Did you read my posts at all? Do you see any other way forward?

Andy

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
you should never negotiate with a terrorist, you only give them legitimate power that way and tell them and every other terror group worldwide not only is it ok to conduct such acts, but by committing them you can achieve your goals. Bad precedent.....

check out Ireland

 

[Alistar7]

Why do you think the whole road map was contigent on the creation of a Palestinian Prime Minister? There was an absolute need for a legitmate and internationally recognized position of Govt. authority for negotiations, Hamas and the others already existed, you notice they were not seen as the solution.

By pressing ahead in spite of their actions you show them how irrelevant they are to the process. If the road map advances and they still do not cease, they will lose popular support. Why fight when you are getting what you claimed you wanted? By making their participation essential you give them too much power, what will we do when it's all said and done and they demand more? You already know what they will do if they don't get their way....

push the peace process forward, hold Israel in check and exterminate the terrorists......

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Why do you think the whole road map was contigent on the creation of a Palestinian Prime Minister? There was an absolute need for a legitmate and internationally recognized position of Govt. authority for negotiations, Hamas and the others already existed, you notice they were not seen as the solution.

But they are. Their cease fire has allowed the peace-plan to move forward. This was bought about by pressure and negotiation from the Palestinian authorities.

By pressing ahead in spite of their actions you show them how irrelevant they are to the process.

If there were no Hamas/etc. cease-fire, I can guarantee you that there would be no peace process. If a government (be it US, Israeli or Palestinian) attempted to wipe out Hamas I could give you the same guarantee that their popular support would be their means of recruitment and a method to bring down the new Palestinian authority if need be.

If the road map advances and they still do not cease, they will lose popular support. Why fight when you are getting what you claimed you wanted? By making their participation essential you give them too much power, what will we do when it's all said and done and they demand more? You already know what they will do if they don't get their way....

Participation comes with responsibility. No one has suggested they get a free ride. They would get to put forward their concerns and power share with other parties only if they move down the road to renouncing violence.

push the peace process forward, hold Israel in check and exterminate the terrorists......

I've not seen an example of that working anywhere in the world as yet.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Alistar7]

Read this article and tell me why they should be part of any "peace" plan

If the people of Palestine allow a terrorist organization to stop what they and their offcial govt. want, they don't deserve anything. The US has the power to push the peace process forward even if Israel is still subject to terrorist attacks. We were able to keep Israel from attacking Iraq during the gulf war, we could make them follow the map regardless of the terror attacks. I blame this admin for not using it as such, he is empowering terrorists with know ties to AQ among others.

Explain to me how Hamas continuing to attack Israel stops Israel from giving back land they stole? Explain to me how Hamas will have such wide support when Israel is fully complying and yet they still kill innocent civilians.

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Read this article and tell me why they should be part of any "peace" plan

I'll take that on later - as I'm busy and it's quite a big document.

If the people of Palestine allow a terrorist organization to stop what they and their offcial govt. want, they don't deserve anything. The US has the power to push the peace process forward even if Israel is still subject to terrorist attacks. We were able to keep Israel from attacking Iraq during the gulf war, we could make them follow the map regardless of the terror attacks. I blame this admin for not using it as such, he is empowering terrorists with know ties to AQ among others.

Yes - if Hamas are against what most in Palestine want - they deserve no input. But I'm not convinced that Palestinians are so detached from Hamas. They may not agree with the 100% jews out message they protray, but I imagine they have a lot of sympathy given the persecution the Palestinians feel they have felt over the years. Failure to involve Hamas, and to keep the cease-fire going is a possible failure to engage and calm the hearts and minds of the Palestinian people.

Explain to me how Hamas continuing to attack Israel stops Israel from giving back land they stole? Explain to me how Hamas will have such wide support when Israel is fully complying and yet they still kill innocent civilians.

I cannot imagine, however idealistic, that if Hamas continued to attack Israel via gun and suicide bomb Israel would not retaliate and leave the peace process in ruins.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Alistar7]

Hard to imagine Israel would sit by and do nothing as Saddam launched Scuds at her, but they did, at a time when 30+ other countries who were not hit directly were also attacking Iraq. We do have the power to make Israel comply.

Their persecution is real in my opinion, and the actions of Israel are as indefensible as those of Hamas. The hearts of minds of the people of Palestine will be won by returning to them what is rightfully theirs and an end to their persecution. Do you think they would not trade today for what they want in exchange for Hamas or rather to see them continue their killing and getting nothing?

Please read that article when you get a chance, interesting look at the way these groups are working together today.

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Hard to imagine Israel would sit by and do nothing as Saddam launched Scuds at her, but they did, at a time when 30+ other countries who were not hit directly were also attacking Iraq. We do have the power to make Israel comply.

Their persecution is real in my opinion, and the actions of Israel are as indefensible as those of Hamas. The hearts of minds of the people of Palestine will be won by returning to them what is rightfully theirs and an end to their persecution. Do you think they would not trade today for what they want in exchange for Hamas or to see them continue their killing and getting nothing?

Please read that article when you get a chance, interesting look at the way these groups are working together today.

Will do. I agree with your logic - but I've yet to see any country's citizens make that move. People just don't seem to work that way.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Alistar7]

The people of Palestine won't either, unless you let them taste the carrot, they won't just follow it along blindly believing Israel has suddenly had a change of heart.

Israel has more control over these groups than they do themselves, if they act accordingly and follow the road map, Hamas doesn't have a leg to stand on and will fade away. The faster Israel acts and the more they give back makes it that much harder for these groups to ever attack again. Then we will see if they will just attack to remain visible and viable, or if they will be happy with recieving their stated goals. We do not have to include them in the process though, that is what Abbas is for.

I think it's rather ironic that people are criticizing Bush for his heavy handed tactics and intention to change the "political climate" in Iraq but have completely missed the fact he is doing the same thing with a few other countries there as well. IMHO the only reason Israel is even acting now is from US pressure being conducted in a private manner, the same type of which I believe was applied to the SA royal family just before the war. Their dramatic change of course would suggest nothing less, can you think of any other reasons?

A free democratic Iraq and SA with a peacefull co-existing Israel and Palestine would be worthy of a nobel peace prize for Bush, how many of our members would have heart attacks?

 

[da loser]

yeah, i thought giving bush the peace prize sounded funny, but let's be realistic, this process is not going to work. For some reason the israelis still feel their settlements provide a barrier to annihilation. and the palestinians don't have a representative government (or if they do, it's not really in control) nor humanitarian aid that comes from an organization other than hamas. They're essentially in a taliban/afghanistan situation, except I'm tending to think they support hamas partly because they have no other option.

What I want to know is, do they palestinians have the option to emigrate elsewhere or are they stuck? for the non-fundamentalist, I would think I would get the hell out of dodge. if they're choosing to believe their land is that valuable, then they're deciding land is worth more than peace/life. maybe they should create an oasis for them in italy, seems like better terrain.

also how crazy do you have to be to live in a settlement? i heard they're mostly coming from russia. do they pay for these nice suburbia houses? or just come and poof, the israeli dream.

 

[Alistar7]

First and foremost the US gives the people of Palestine about 200 million annualy that is handled by the UN, they just announced that due to the legitimate govt there they may be giving aid to them directly to the tune of 300 million a year. We are not the only ones who funnel aid to them either.

Ironically the one ME country that has actually welcomed Palestinian refugees was Iraq, Saddam was always behind their struggle in more ways than just the terrorist connection, maybe the only good thing he ever did, and it wasn't even for his own people....

 

[da loser]

$200 million for what? hamas gives health care and education. our 200 probably gets embezzled by arafat.
when you give israel billions you're picking sides. I think we're supporting the right side because the palestinians don't have a government, but hey it doesn't help the peace process. maybe the EU should step up for the palestinians, it could follow their own countries system

 

[Alistar7]

The EU, especially France do help the Palestinians, most of Hamas money flows through French banks. Their govt. is unabashedly pro-palestine, they have a 20% muslim population and public violent acts of anti-semitism are on the rise. The EU just publicly stated they recognize Hamas as a poltical entity that must be recognized, not in my book.
They may have started as a humanitarian group but they are nothing more than lowly terrorists now.

That's why the 200 million went through the UN, not to Arafat directly. They do have a formally recognized govt now though, and a trustworthy finance minister, which is one of the reason we may give them the money directly now. The other reason is alot will be spent on security and rooting out the terror groups, we can't physically go in there and do that but we can make sure Abbas has the funds, training and equipment to get it done.