What is the cause of bad policy?

[woolfe9999]

Indeed. Humans are flawed, always have been, always will be. That's why various Systems exist, to mitigate those flaws. If Corruption is increasing or very high, it is not "Character" that is the problem, it is the System(s), which is supposed to mitigate, that is the problem.

Depends what you mean by "system." Structural alterations in the system, i.e. passing laws to take the money out of politics, will reduce corruption. Might not cause us to view things more objectively or make better decisions. We basically have two problems in politics in the U.S. - the first is special interest money corrupting the system; the second, we have become polarized by a war of ideologies, which is really a culture war in disguise. Both cause us to make bad decisions and to pursue bad policies.

If you broaden your definition of "system" to include the culture at large, then you're on to something. For example, in the United States, our competitiveness and focus on "winning" at all costs, which I think is not unique here but more extreme than perhaps anywhere else, causes us to view politics as a team sport. This, in turn, causes our elected officials to play to that mentality, polarizing the national debate and making it impossible to accomplish anything. It's a difficult problem though, since our competitive drive has been a huge factor in our historic successes, but is now destroying our politics.

 

[soccerballtux]

politicians exist to get re-elected not pass economically wise policies. Economics requires a certain mindset that politicians lack

 

[cwjerome]

The character of the people and our "systems" have a symbiotic relationship. In a sense, I suppose I'm advocating a "system" that promotes the good character of the population. What this system is and how it works I have no idea. It's educational. It's cultural. It's many things that would combine to function in such a way that encourages more people to just let it go. Detach from the daily nonsense, the partisanship, the hype, the teams, the sensationalism, the pettiness, the superficial, the cynicism. Be free.

How refreshing it must be to be open, to know that you will learn more and change, and embrace it. To seeking understanding, not certainty. To grow, not be right. This is hard to do in an ugly environment where your "opponents" are raving, condescending assholes... it is easy when everyone is more relaxed, honest, and sincere.

I have tried to use a lot of adjectives to describe the low character I mention... think of it as the Jerry Springification of political discourse. I have tried to describe better qualities that might serve people and society better. If more people were willing to just be more independent and not fear the disintegration of ideals and beliefs they've psychologically invested so much in and become philosophical wanderers... well, it's a thought. I think back to what Ben Franklin said once as a requirement to join a scholarly club he formed: "Do you love mankind in general?" This benevolent optimism seems at such odds with our scene today.

 

[Jhhnn]

I really don't want this to come off as some fruity "can't we all just get along" nonsense. I do believe we have lost sight of the big picture in the daily political grind, the political sport it has become, and could use a good classical refresher on civic duty and virtue. Not promoting interests, but promoting real understanding.

You're referring obliquely to the tragedy of the commons, where over exploitation of resources by a small group is detrimental to the larger group. The classic example is individually owned herds and shared grazing land, but it applies to any sort of shared resource, even money.

We need to understand that "bad policy" falls into that realm, and that some benefit somehow while the rest suffer the consequences.

Part of identifying bad policy is to identify who benefits from it, because any sort of policy decision is designed to benefit somebody, often power holders rather than the rest of the population. Power holders have means of persuasion that ordinary citizens lack- they have access to the media, and money to spend to influence us all. They often pay PR experts to formulate their pitch, even test it on focus groups.

We also need to recognize that there is a layering effect, where policy is built on what people believe to be true. With a sufficiently propagandized population, many of the underlying assumptions and beliefs are false, meaning that only ideas that fit into that framework will be accepted, whether they're of benefit to that population or not.

So it's very, very important for rational people to question not only what they're told, but what they already believe. Those of us who don't are the easiest to influence, the most likely to succumb to simulated rationality of all sorts, particularly when we find it to be emotionally satisfying.

 

[MotF Bane]

Ignorance and greed.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yes, you're correct to focus on context and process over the arguments themselves. Bad ideas do not arise from a vacuum. However, when you're talking about people being of "low character," that is kind of a meaningless statement. "Low" relative to what? Are you saying it's more of a problem in the U.S. than elsewhere? Or is it universal? If so, is there any real chance for it to be significantly better?

The ability of people to be objective and to think critically varies by degree. Everyone falls short of a theoretical ideal; most fall massively short. Some live in their own hermetically sealed worlds, and are impervious to any evidence that contradicts their core assumptions. If we posit that at least some of these tendencies are learned, then theoretically that can change, for better or worse. How to do go about doing it, I do not know. Currently the best you can do is set an example in the way you conduct yourself. I also suggest that in any sort of political debate/discussion, to focus first on facts, and last on opinions. Do your best to ensure that everyone is operating on a reasonably accurate set of facts, and the quality of opinions/decisions should generally improve. It's an uphill battle though, which is why democracy is, at best, the least terrible system there is.

- wolf

It's really very simple. People who hate themselves exhibit low character because people exhibit how they feel. If you have been made to feel worthless you will express it unconsciously.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Bad policies occur when politicians are only interested in the desired results (more votes, appeasing the public needs/desires, righting some "injustice", etc) but they are not as interested or curious in the possible unintended consequences and costs of these same proposed set of polices being lobbied for in a given political body of a ruling government. This then in turn leads to politicians creating polices which more often then not have the opposite effect of their intended goals and do more harm then good when they are enacted and enforced.

In other words you can have the best and most honest intentions in the world as a politician but if you don't give heed to what the consequences or the costs of your initiative have on the lives of individuals when you pass them then you will usually reap horrible unintended and costly results. Thus in the end you will be judged and characterized by these results and viewed as a villain.

 

[Spikesoldier]

no care or consideration for others

 

[soulcougher73]

Lobbying would be my #1 reason. They dont have the peoples interest at heart. They have whatever company is paying thems interest at heart. What is the companies interest? Profit. So these bad policies you see since you are part of the "peoples interest" is meant to serve the corporations where they see it as "good policy" because they either deregulated something or regulated something else via their financial influence over politicians. Corporations do not have the peoples interest in mind.

 

[cwjerome]

In the last several posts people have blamed greed, ignorance, interest groups, no consideration of others, focus on intentions and not possible outcomes, and self-hate. All are probably factors to some degree or another. The question is, how do you fix this?

I have modestly proposed that we have to start with the people, or more specifically, how people behave. If we are full of corrupt politicians then it's because we are corrupt. If we loaded with bad policies it's because we are bad. We are the starting point, we create the world we live in, and we are to blame. Not just a few, not the "other side," everybody. If we want better policies we need a better government, and if we want a better government we need a better people.

I'd like to change the direction of this thread a little and ask a new follow-on question: "What are the personal traits/characteristics that people can have or follow that will improve the citizenry and therefor create a better system with less bad policy?" The idea is that a people with higher character will promote much better political discourse, create a much healthier marketplace of ideas, and all this will lead to better government

Identify and/or describe your ideal "virtues" that will get us there.