What is the appeal of a BMW?

[Don Vito Corleone]

M cars don't even come with Manual transmissions anymore......

In fairness, the M5 is in fact available with a manual, and most people agree it's the wrong transmission for the car. Meanwhile, you can't buy a new Ferrari, Lamborghini or GT3 with a manual transmission. Realistically, we are on the verge of seeing the market eliminate manuals altogether. I still prefer a manual, and both of my cars have a 6MT, but the market doesn't want them.

 

[JackBurton]

Track pad? Really? is that what justifies the extreme price hike over equivalent hardware? or is it simply the logo?

There is a dozen (or more) as good if not better laptops on the market than Apple......at fraction of the cost.

You just don't want to look hard enough......and you are probably already DEEP into Apple's way of getting them more business from you.

Cause frankly that's what Apple does well, limit your freedom and force you into their ways.

:biggrin:

As long as you like it, that's all that matters.

Please stop. You couldn't be more wrong. I looked for a quality laptop way before Apple came out with their unibody MacBook Pro. I've used high end HP, Dell, IBM and Sony laptops. And when Apple came out with their unibody MacBook Pro, "FINALLY" describes my feelings. As in "FINALLY a company that focuses on quality rather than building the cheapest junk to fit within the lowest price point," or what I'd call, the race to the bottom. Apple simply builds a quality laptop. If you want a cheap feeling junk laptop, then Apple laptops aren't for you. And this is coming from a guy with 2 Sony VAIO's that can't wait to get rid of them.

Now can we get back to original topic.

 

[Eureka]

In fairness, the M5 is in fact available with a manual, and most people agree it's the wrong transmission for the car. Meanwhile, you can't buy a new Ferrari, Lamborghini or GT3 with a manual transmission. Realistically, we are on the verge of seeing the market eliminate manuals altogether. I still prefer a manual, and both of my cars have a 6MT, but the market doesn't want them.

Bless BMW for having those manuals. They seem to be one of the very few RWD, manual sedans left on the market. It makes me smile everytime I see a manual 5-series on the road.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Please stop. You couldn't be more wrong. I looked for a quality laptop way before Apple came out with their unibody MacBook Pro. I've used high end HP, Dell, IBM and Sony laptops. And when Apple came out with their unibody MacBook Pro, "FINALLY" describes my feelings. As in "FINALLY a company that focuses on quality rather than building the cheapest junk to fit within the lowest price point," or what I'd call, the race to the bottom. Apple simply builds a quality laptop. If you want a cheap feeling junk laptop, then Apple laptops aren't for you. And this is coming from a guy with 2 Sony VAIO's that can't wait to get rid of them.

Now can we get back to original topic.

Agreed 100%. I am amazed to say I have been using my unibody 13" MBP for a solid 4 years now - I have never had a laptop survive past two years in the past. It still looks great and the performance is more than adequate for my needs (particularly since I upgraded to 8 GB RAM and an SSD). The Apple trackpad is the finest pointing device ever installed on a laptop, and overall my computer is just a pleasure to use. I may entertain an upgrade once the Haswell rMBP hits the market, but for now I remain delighted with my MBP. Meanwhile, when it's time to upgrade I will be able to sell my MBP for real money - the same could not be said about any Windows laptop on the market after four years.

 

[MixMasterTang]

Agreed 100%. I am amazed to say I have been using my unibody 13" MBP for a solid 4 years now - I have never had a laptop survive past two years in the past. It still looks great and the performance is more than adequate for my needs (particularly since I upgraded to 8 GB RAM and an SSD). The Apple trackpad is the finest pointing device ever installed on a laptop, and overall my computer is just a pleasure to use. I may entertain an upgrade once the Haswell rMBP hits the market, but for now I remain delighted with my MBP. Meanwhile, when it's time to upgrade I will be able to sell my MBP for real money - the same could not be said about any Windows laptop on the market after four years.

Thirded, and I don't even own a Mac, but they are way better built than any laptop I've had (all range of Lenovo's, HP's, Dell XPS's, etc.).

 

[KentState]

I really like some of the more expensive brands and what they have to offer. However, buying it for the badge seems like a huge waste. For the typical commuter, a Honda Accord loaded offers more than an entry level BMW for the price. You get something with every safety gizmo available, one of the best crash ratings today, GPS, V6 engine, good fuel economy and so on. A 320i as a pure commuter car is rather expensive and spartan on features.

 

[iamwiz82]

Driving experience is hard to beat at the price and market point.

 

[CraigRT]

Well let me see, since it's pretty hard to explain..

Wait, no it's not... Just look at it. <3

 

[Eureka]

I really like some of the more expensive brands and what they have to offer. However, buying it for the badge seems like a huge waste. For the typical commuter, a Honda Accord loaded offers more than an entry level BMW for the price. You get something with every safety gizmo available, one of the best crash ratings today, GPS, V6 engine, good fuel economy and so on. A 320i as a pure commuter car is rather expensive and spartan on features.

You don't (shouldn't) buy it to beat an Accord. You buy it for what it is: a comfortable, well-driving RWD car.

 

[KentState]

You don't (shouldn't) buy it to beat an Accord. You buy it for what it is: a comfortable, well-driving RWD car.

The majority of people that I know who buy BMWs do it as a status symbol.

 

[Midwayman]

In fairness, the M5 is in fact available with a manual, and most people agree it's the wrong transmission for the car. Meanwhile, you can't buy a new Ferrari, Lamborghini or GT3 with a manual transmission. Realistically, we are on the verge of seeing the market eliminate manuals altogether. I still prefer a manual, and both of my cars have a 6MT, but the market doesn't want them.

I'd give up manuals for the new SMT type transmissions no problem. Only issue is they usually are quite a bit more expensive. I'm sort of surprised we haven't seen more and more of them in new cars. Best of both worlds.

 

[hans007]

i drive one right now. have had it for 7 months.

previous cars were, an A4 , an acura TSX which I drove for 3 and 5 years respectively. I did own a G35 for just under a year before the TSX though.

I'd have to say for me, and this probably doesn't go for most people who own a BMW vehicle its the drive.

it is just way way more fun. obviously a lot of this is that its RWD, but compared to the infiniti it just feels a little more ballerina, than running back (the G35 felt like a muscle car, a lot of fun in its own right, but it felt very machete not scalpel). My A4 plowed into every turn and just didn't feel very light or controlled. It had quattro so I guess the main draw is that it feels really composed in rain/snow etc, but I wouldn't call it fun compared to the RWD cars. the TSX is well basically a regular econobox with a nicer suspension and interior and i'd say it was alot of fun for what it is.

luxury wise the BMW is no more luxurious than say the Audi was. I'd say roughly equal there and BMW had to do some catching up for this. the acura / infiniti (older models mind you) were not nearly as nice inside.

I think for someone who likes driving you get a BMW because in general they are balanced. they are competitive on luxury things, but they are right up there with sporty things. I've driven a few other bmws and its sort of in their DNA to offer as sporty a drive as they can for a given class (well i've driven an X5, X3 and 5 series of the current gen). Im not really sure why anyone would buy say a 7 series though.... mercedes / audi just do luxobarge better.

To be honest in my car buying history, the one I don't get now is the audi. I am not sure why people buy audis. They aren't really that much more luxurious, the brand isn't quite to the level of mercedes/bmw for the status types and the cars aren't nearly as fun to drive as even a mercedes for people into sporty driving. They are pretty, and I guess that is really the main selling point.... but i digress...


BMW for most people I dont think is much about the sportiness because most people just want basically a luxury car..... like my parents. they just bought a 2013 X3 xdrive28i AND a 2014 X3 xdrive35i. Yes really they bought 2 X3s. They drive them like basically any other SUV. the driving feel makes almost no difference at all to them, I mean most SUV drivers i'm doubting care how the car drives and my parents have never been the type to be into cars....but its their preferred brand and they like SUVs.

I'd guess the sporty pretense gives it more snob appeal, even if they don't use it. I suppose those people should probably buy a lexus, since i'd say a lexus generally is more luxurious, with more reliability , but doesn't quite have that european car status appeal.

 

[mmntech]

I've driven the 3 series and 1 series many, many times. Automatics unfortunately but I like the way they drive. They're not luxury cars though. Interiors are quite sparse and not very comfortable. It's a driver's car built for performance.

That said a lot of people do get them as status symbols. Which is why so many are hyper aggressive behind the wheel. Small penis syndrome. This reputation is not exactly undeserved. Though the same applies with a lot of semi-luxury vehicles. The Lexus RX and Benz C-class seem to be the new death machines of choice for the yuppie douchbag.

BMW, would I buy one? Maybe. Though you can now get cars that are just as, or more fun to drive that are $10k cheaper. The Ford Fiesta ST comes to mind. So I'd never buy one new.

 

[who?]

A friend of a friend has a 3-series with traction control and stability control. With those systems turned on it drives perfectly in ice and snow. With those off it's impossible to control on the snow but with them on there's no need for all or even front wheel drive.

 

[Sheep221]

I like the BMWs, and I would buy one in the case of having spare money, just because BMW has much better safety, engines and overall build quality than mid range cars, even the entry level BMWs are not much more expensive and are much better on quality side. Yet I can't speak of reliability because I don't work with cars.

In fairness, the M5 is in fact available with a manual, and most people agree it's the wrong transmission for the car. Meanwhile, you can't buy a new Ferrari, Lamborghini or GT3 with a manual transmission. Realistically, we are on the verge of seeing the market eliminate manuals altogether. I still prefer a manual, and both of my cars have a 6MT, but the market doesn't want them.

Cars that are only sold in america most often are not offered with MT, but those sold internationally(even those designed in the US) tend to still be offered with MT.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Cars that are only sold in america most often are not offered with MT, but those sold internationally(even those designed in the US) tend to still be offered with MT.

That is definitely true of many mainstream carmakers - this is one reason I always encourage people to learn to drive stick, so they can rent cars overseas without paying a fortune. It remains true, though, that you can't buy a new Ferrari, Lambo (other than perhaps an ancient Gallardo subtype or two), or GT3 with a manual. In other instances large makers like Mercedes may sell manual-equipped cars overseas, but they are entry-level models not sold in the US - I don't believe, for example, that you can buy an E Class or S class with a manual anywhere in the world. (Meanwhile in a few curious instances, like the E60 and F10 M5s, BMW has built a manual version based solely on market pressure from the US.)

I think we are headed toward the elimination of true manuals in everything but entry-level cars within the next decade.

I have only owned one car with an automatic, and love driving manual. In fairness I have not logged many miles on a car with a good DCG, and I'm sure they work well (the Ferrari and Porsche versions, in particular, are incredibly fast, and no doubt very well engineered), but to me it still feels like a loss not to have a manual.

 

[Viper GTS]

That is definitely true of many mainstream carmakers - this is one reason I always encourage people to learn to drive stick, so they can rent cars overseas without paying a fortune. It remains true, though, that you can't buy a new Ferrari, Lambo (other than perhaps an ancient Gallardo subtype or two), or GT3 with a manual. In other instances large makers like Mercedes may sell manual-equipped cars overseas, but they are entry-level models not sold in the US - I don't believe, for example, that you can buy an E Class or S class with a manual anywhere in the world. (Meanwhile in a few curious instances, like the E60 and F10 M5s, BMW has built a manual version based solely on market pressure from the US.)

I think we are headed toward the elimination of true manuals in everything but entry-level cars within the next decade.

I have only owned one car with an automatic, and love driving manual. In fairness I have not logged many miles on a car with a good DCG, and I'm sure they work well (the Ferrari and Porsche versions, in particular, are incredibly fast, and no doubt very well engineered), but to me it still feels like a loss not to have a manual.

This is a tragedy, but probably fairly accurate. We have an entire generation of drivers who have no idea how to drive a manual and no incentive to learn.

When I was learning to drive my dad insisted I learn on a manual. He told me 'if you don't learn now you never will.' Given what I see in my friends I would say that is true, they'd rather have a hand free for texting than enjoy a perfect rev match.

I get that modern autos make the manual essentially obsolete, but I'll take the slow shifts and poorer gas mileage any day to actually feel engaged in the process of driving.

Viper GTS

 

[halik]

All the answers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fpf-cA_puJU#t=64s

 

[Zenmervolt]

Their keyboards are also the best I have ever used.

The trackpad I'll grant you (though I've always preferred a TrackPoint to a touchpad, I'll grant that Apple's touchpad is the best), but Apple's chicklet keyboards are absolutely horrible. No feel, flat keys, not much travel. Just awful.

Thinkpads had far and away the best keyboards of any laptop on the market. Can't speak for the latest Thinkpad models with the new keyboard, but even my ancient ThinkPad from 2000 has a better keyboard than current crop of Apple laptops.

I blame Apple for popularizing the truly atrocious chicklet design in laptop keyboards. It was a bad idea when the PC Jr. use a chicklet keyboard and it's still a bad idea today.

ZV

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

The trackpad I'll grant you (though I've always preferred a TrackPoint to a touchpad, I'll grant that Apple's touchpad is the best), but Apple's chicklet keyboards are absolutely horrible. No feel, flat keys, not much travel. Just awful.

Thinkpads had far and away the best keyboards of any laptop on the market. Can't speak for the latest Thinkpad models with the new keyboard, but even my ancient ThinkPad from 2000 has a better keyboard than current crop of Apple laptops.

I blame Apple for popularizing the truly atrocious chicklet design in laptop keyboards. It was a bad idea when the PC Jr. use a chicklet keyboard and it's still a bad idea today.

ZV

The PC Jr. keyboard was certainly dreadful, but that's because it had those weird rubber keys. I was a kid when I played with one but I can't imagine touch-typing on it - it would be wildly more difficult than, say, an iPad, which in turn is somewhat harder than an actual keyboard. Personally I find the Apple keyboards awesome in both laptop and desktop configurations, but I can see that reasonable minds can differ on this. Obviously a flat keyboard lends itself to a slightly different typing style, but I find I can switch between my MacBook Pro keyboard and the Logitech desktop keyboard at work just fine. Years and years ago I used to prefer the clickety mechanical IBM keyboards, but at this point Apple's are my favorite.

 

[ND40oz]

A 320i as a pure commuter car is rather expensive and spartan on features.

The 320i is a $299 a month lease spec special, it's just a way to bring people to the brand and dealerships.

BMW, would I buy one? Maybe. Though you can now get cars that are just as, or more fun to drive that are $10k cheaper. The Ford Fiesta ST comes to mind. So I'd never buy one new.

So you'd take a Fiesta ST over a 135i because it's more fun to drive and cheaper?

 

[Maleficus]

They are incredibly fun to drive, my first BMW completely transformed me as a driver.

I had always looked at cars as transportation, that is their sole purpose, I didn't enjoy driving, it never even occurred to me that it could be fun, my previous cars were a 1990 pontiac grand prix and a 1965 Mustang.

The mustang was rebuilt/restored and while it was 'fun' to drive it was fun in a completely different way, the BMW is satisfying and fun to drive everyday.

It has all the creature comforts I want and more on top of being just a really fun car.

2009 BMW 335i w/ JB4 for the record.

 

[Sheep221]

That is definitely true of many mainstream carmakers - this is one reason I always encourage people to learn to drive stick, so they can rent cars overseas without paying a fortune. It remains true, though, that you can't buy a new Ferrari, Lambo (other than perhaps an ancient Gallardo subtype or two), or GT3 with a manual. In other instances large makers like Mercedes may sell manual-equipped cars overseas, but they are entry-level models not sold in the US - I don't believe, for example, that you can buy an E Class or S class with a manual anywhere in the world. (Meanwhile in a few curious instances, like the E60 and F10 M5s, BMW has built a manual version based solely on market pressure from the US.)

I think we are headed toward the elimination of true manuals in everything but entry-level cars within the next decade.

I have only owned one car with an automatic, and love driving manual. In fairness I have not logged many miles on a car with a good DCG, and I'm sure they work well (the Ferrari and Porsche versions, in particular, are incredibly fast, and no doubt very well engineered), but to me it still feels like a loss not to have a manual.

Well the problem is most people don't like to think of driving as activity but only as way to get into work so they are not bothered to learn something that was technically removed by technological development, every better driver or car enthusiast own a high end vehicle with MT.
The rest of the world still drive MT mostly, europe, asia etc even high end cars are still sold with MT, the AT/MT ratio where I live is probably 30:70.
The ultra luxury cars are however no longer offered with MT anywhere because they are mostly bought by people who are not really a drivers and use them for presentation and outter image rather than actual driving.

This is a tragedy, but probably fairly accurate. We have an entire generation of drivers who have no idea how to drive a manual and no incentive to learn.

When I was learning to drive my dad insisted I learn on a manual. He told me 'if you don't learn now you never will.' Given what I see in my friends I would say that is true, they'd rather have a hand free for texting than enjoy a perfect rev match.

I get that modern autos make the manual essentially obsolete, but I'll take the slow shifts and poorer gas mileage any day to actually feel engaged in the process of driving.

Viper GTS

I agree, learning manuals is fun and important.
I also enjoy driving MT.

 

[Railgun]

I've had an 07 335i. Was the first (and so far only) Bimmer I've had. The first BMW I had driven was an E46 M3. That car started my love of BMW, perhaps for obvious reasons.

BMW is not without it's issues, in particular the car I had. While I escaped the HPFP issues many seemed to have, there were a couple of other electrical issues. However, mechanically, the thing was incredible. On track, as others suggested, it performed admirably given its disadvantages (open diff for example). Electronics can only do so much in that case.

The overall styling of it (for the time) was fantastic. Interior fit, finish and comfort was great, though I had some issues. I will say that for a brand new car, it had more rattles than the 2003 Mazda 6s it replaced. At about 100k miles, the Mazda was rather solid, though its transmission was utter crap (auto as I was tired of looking for a manual I wanted).

At any rate, I opted for the BMW as Audi had not come out with the A/S5 as yet, though, after having recently driven an A4 (albeit base), it, again as mentioned above, was crap. It handled horribly, it braked horribly, just felt like a much larger car than it was (granted, it was only the 1.8T so I'm not expecting much for power).

Now, IMHO, I'd prefer a Euro car over an American car for a few reasons. While I'm sure that there are many that give more bang for the buck, I'm not looking for that. I'm not looking for economy. I'm not looking for raw power, nor am I looking for a status symbol. I want a car that is fun to drive and well made. American cars are generally built with horrible interior parts...cheap feeling plastic. Crap lighting. Lack of good tech. While the new Stingray for example may change that, until I see/feel it first hand, it's really irrelevant.

That said, I'm not a BMW leg humper. I love cars in general. I currently drive a MINI and still have my RX-7 back in the States. I don't really care what it is if it meets what I want. It's as simple as that. And BMW just happens to be one of the makers that have what I want.

And for the record, I've been known to occassionally drive like an asshat. Even in my Saturn. The way I drove in the Bimmer wasn't stereotypical of BMW drivers to be clear.

 

[iamwiz82]

MINI and BMW are very similar in driving dynamic. As close as you can be with different drive wheels, at least. Both my MINI and my BMW are insanely fun to drive and put a smile on my face. That's a requirement for a car for me.