What is it about Windows that everybody likes? (A rant)

[lxskllr]

Pretty much this.

When you ask for an "easy to use beginner oriented Linux distro" and are told, "Well, ___ is the best - you'll only have to learn a little CLI" well... it's like the groundhog. You take it out every February, it tells you if winter is over, then you put it back in its hole and ignore it for another year.

CLI is never needed on the "easy" distros. They work just like Windows, and one never needs to open a terminal. That said, ignoring the terminal is foolish. Any outlandish one-off task you may need can usually be done with a terminal and/or scripting. Some tasks have no hope of being made into a gui program by others; especially on Windows, and if you want it done, you do it yourself.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

I very much disagree. I have to use it daily, but have found nothing I prefer over LibreOffice, and each version they add more that I dislike than that I like. For example, Excel on multiple monitors requires a registry hack, still, for Office 2013. Why should that be required to have two spreadsheets up? Not to mention the UI that's nothing like anything else in the host OS, which has been an issue for a long time, but has gotten worse lately. Then, Outlook on IMAP breaks fairly regularly, now, when 2007 and 2010 were, and still are, solid (against that I use Thunderbird). LibreOffice is far from perfect, but I'll take it over Office any chance I get.

Windows 8 has merged the Explorer and Office UIs.

I really hate Excel. That stupid one-window bug is just the tip of the iceberg.

I liked Thunderbird, I thought it was pretty decent. But it's not part of the LibreOffice suite, and in any case I don't actually find having a dedicated mail client that useful for personal use.

And any given person's library probably has 2 or 3 games for Linux, v. 100+ for Windows. Even if it does succeed, it's going to take years. I'm hopeful, but it's going to be an uphill battle for Steam.

I don't have a wide repertoire of games that I play, but I do spend a lot of time playing the games I have, and barring a few notable exceptions (such as the Total War series and the Elder Scrolls series) all the games I've played in the last few years are at this time compatible with Linux.

 

[ControlD]

CLI is never needed on the "easy" distros. They work just like Windows, and one never needs to open a terminal. That said, ignoring the terminal is foolish. Any outlandish one-off task you may need can usually be done with a terminal and/or scripting. Some tasks have no hope of being made into a gui program by others; especially on Windows, and if you want it done, you do it yourself.

I have not found that to be the case at all. Even with Mint and Ubuntu I have had to use the CLI on numerous occasions. Just getting a proper AMD driver installed requires dropping to the CLI.

 

[lxskllr]

I have not found that to be the case at all. Even with Mint and Ubuntu I have had to use the CLI on numerous occasions. Just getting a proper AMD driver installed requires dropping to the CLI.

I can't think of a single time I've had to use it on the *buntus in the last few years. I've had to go to the console on my Debian install a few times, but that's expected being on testing. What would a Windows user do if MS released pre-alpha software, and it borked their machine? I'm pretty sure the answer is reinstall :^D

 

[ControlD]

I can't think of a single time I've had to use it on the *buntus in the last few years. I've had to go to the console on my Debian install a few times, but that's expected being on testing. What would a Windows user do if MS released pre-alpha software, and it borked their machine? I'm pretty sure the answer is reinstall :^D

I'm not complaining about needing the CLI, it is simply a tool to be used to accomplish some given task. Still, when trying to iron out hardware driver issues, which seem to be an ever present issue when trying to run Linux on cutting edge hardware, I find myself poking around with CLI commands a good amount of the time with the "easy" distros. What seems strange (but maybe in hindsight it isn't) is my new Debian install has required much less interaction with the CLI. Maybe all this forking really isn't so great after all.

And for the record, the last time I reinstalled Windows was when I upgraded to a (then) cutting edge system. The days of constantly wiping and installing Windows ended for me once Vista was released.

 

[lxskllr]

What seems strange (but maybe in hindsight it isn't) is my new Debian install has required much less interaction with the CLI. Maybe all this forking really isn't so great after all.

Assuming you're using stable, Debian puts a lot of attention into making sure it works properly. The drawback is the software tends to be older, especially as you get to the end of a release cycle. The derivatives usually pull from testing and unstable, and don't seem to be tested as thoroughly. On the upside, the software tends to be newer.

 

[Skaendo]

I'm not complaining about needing the CLI, it is simply a tool to be used to accomplish some given task. Still, when trying to iron out hardware driver issues, which seem to be an ever present issue when trying to run Linux on cutting edge hardware, I find myself poking around with CLI commands a good amount of the time with the "easy" distros. What seems strange (but maybe in hindsight it isn't) is my new Debian install has required much less interaction with the CLI. Maybe all this forking really isn't so great after all.

And for the record, the last time I reinstalled Windows was when I upgraded to a (then) cutting edge system. The days of constantly wiping and installing Windows ended for me once Vista was released.

Did you have any hardware issues with your new Debian? I running on somewhat older hardware, 2008 Inspiron 1520. The only issue I have is my Tuner express card, and for that AverMedia says that they will not support Linux for some reason or another. However drivers are being developed or do exist I just don't use it enough to really care.

Assuming you're using stable, Debian puts a lot of attention into making sure it works properly. The drawback is the software tends to be older, especially as you get to the end of a release cycle. The derivatives usually pull from testing and unstable, and don't seem to be tested as thoroughly. On the upside, the software tends to be newer.

I am again on somewhat older hardware, but I haven't had an issue with testing repos yet. Most recent install I did was Wheezy 7.6 and immediately updated to testing. Running flawless since.

 

[ControlD]

Did you have any hardware issues with your new Debian?

The only issue I have right now is that my keyboard and mouse sometimes stop working which requires me to unplug them and then plug them back in.

My two major issues since Mint 15 have been (1) display port not being recognized and (2) constant "popping" noise coming from my speakers. Neither of these issues have appeared with the latest Debian stable version. I think I am a convert already.

 

[Skaendo]

The only issue I have right now is that my keyboard and mouse sometimes stop working which requires me to unplug them and then plug them back in.

My two major issues since Mint 15 have been (1) display port not being recognized and (2) constant "popping" noise coming from my speakers. Neither of these issues have appeared with the latest Debian stable version. I think I am a convert already.

I've been using a Logitech USB wireless KB & Mouse set with no issues on my laptop. But it does take a fraction of a second for the system to catch up to the mouse.

lxskllr is correct with the stable releases. the software tends to be older but it is stable and fully functional. Updating your repos to testing will get you the latest software like KDE 4.14.1 & LibreOffice 4.3.1.2. Some bugs might exist but are prob minimal. And you need to update way more often with the testing repos, IMO it is worth it.

 

[Skaendo]

Another nice feature of using Debian testing repos is once the OS goes from testing to stable, a snapshot of stable is taken and put into testing. From there the cycle begins again with adding new software to the testing repos. Theoretically giving you the latest release and pulling the latest software from testing again. No more need to install a new OS version like you have to do with Windows. You already have it, without having to waste the time installing the newest version. And all software is updated, not just the OS. Of course from time to time you can run into bugs.

 

[sweenish]

I want to hear more about this Excel one window bug and if it's not the thing Excel 2013 remedied.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

I want to hear more about this Excel one window bug and if it's not the thing Excel 2013 remedied.

In Office (and in other programs as a general case) you have an application, and inside this application you have individual projects or documents. In Word you usually have one project to an application window, but more importantly, you have have more than one application window open at the same time.

For some as-yet-unknown-to-me reason, sometimes Excel does not allow more than one application window open at the same time. If you are working on two Excel documents simultaneously, both open within the same application window. This becomes a huge pain because as Cerb mentioned you can't position the documents on different monitors easily, but it is also harder to position the documents on the same monitor, to switch between documents, to switch between applications, etc. etc.

This has only happened to me on Office 2010. I haven't used 2013 enough to have used Excel, but I don't think this is the case any longer.

 

[Skaendo]

In Office (and in other programs as a general case) you have an application, and inside this application you have individual projects or documents. In Word you usually have one project to an application window, but more importantly, you have have more than one application window open at the same time.

For some as-yet-unknown-to-me reason, sometimes Excel does not allow more than one application window open at the same time. If you are working on two Excel documents simultaneously, both open within the same application window. This becomes a huge pain because as Cerb mentioned you can't position the documents on different monitors easily, but it is also harder to position the documents on the same monitor, to switch between documents, to switch between applications, etc. etc.

This has only happened to me on Office 2010. I haven't used 2013 enough to have used Excel, but I don't think this is the case any longer.

This is not a problem for LibreOffice. Open as many as you want.

 

[alkemyst]

This is not a problem for LibreOffice. Open as many as you want.

There is a setting under settings that tells Excel to open a new window or use an existing one.

This is simply a user error.

 

[Raduque]

My biggest issue with Linux is that every once in a while I try installing it on my old laptop and it still doesn't support the Intel wifi card as good as Windows does.

I will never switch from Windows for my primary use laptop, but it would be nice to have it perform basic functions correctly, such as resuming from sleep/hibernate and bringing up the wifi card without a reboot or driver reinstall.

 

[Skaendo]

My biggest issue with Linux is that every once in a while I try installing it on my old laptop and it still doesn't support the Intel wifi card as good as Windows does.

You are prob using some fork of a distro. It's pretty well known that forks suck. Intel wireless is VERY well supported. You have to have firmware-iwlwifi_0.43_all.deb on USB during a Debian install, then it gets installed to system, because it is non-free software.

 

[roror]

I'd rather have the Linux CLI. The fonts look better in Windows. Gaming is a huge thing for me. My dream OS would be Windows GUI with Linux CLI underneath.

 

[Skaendo]

I'd rather have the Linux CLI. The fonts look better in Windows. Gaming is a huge thing for me. My dream OS would be Windows GUI with Linux CLI underneath.

Check this out:

http://zorin-os.com/

I've never used it but it looked interesting. Windows GUI, Linux OS. Claims to support gaming as well (Paid Version).

 

[Zaap]

Install time?
Windows 7, ON AVERAGE takes 2 to 3 hours. I've heard that it can take MUCH, MUCH longer.

LOL!

Debian takes about 2 hours.

LOL!

What in the world kind of installs are you doing that take that long, let alone "MUCH, MUCH longer"?

 

[Cerb]

Windows 8 has merged the Explorer and Office UIs.

No, it it doesn't, TMK/IME. It looks roughly similar, inside Windows 8. It is still separate, when it should be made to match the host OS. FI, how do you darken Office 2013?

I really hate Excel. That stupid one-window bug is just the tip of the iceberg.

That was fixed (you can enable the old way, if you have reason to). However, multiple monitors are still annoying, and you'd think MS would be able to handle that, if anyone. FI, bring up a dialog from the secondary monitor, and it is modal over the primary monitor. Seems kind of minor, but it means that much of the spreadsheet I can't see, or having to spend time moving it, when coming up over the spreadsheet window that had focus would be fine. It's annoying seconds at a time that seem to add up.

If I use the old DDE "hack", to open separate Excel instances when opening files, rather then just windows, the dialogs stick to their correct monitors.

I liked Thunderbird, I thought it was pretty decent. But it's not part of the LibreOffice suite

Outlook is part of Office suites, which is why the comparison.

 

[Skaendo]

What in the world kind of installs are you doing that take that long, let alone "MUCH, MUCH longer"?

I do installs from DVD to HDD. I have not had the pleasure of installing on a SSD yet, (though I plan on getting one in the near future.) And these are not on brand new just got released today hardware. Most people that come to me are not worried about that kind of thing. I think the oldest system I did recently was a 2007 Dell Dimension E521, 2GHz, 4GB RAM, 250GB HDD. This took about 1 1/2 to 2 hours to install Windows 7 from a retail disc. Then there was the 2+ hours of updates (5MB DSL connection).

 

[alkemyst]

I do installs from DVD to HDD. I have not had the pleasure of installing on a SSD yet, (though I plan on getting one in the near future.) And these are not on brand new just got released today hardware. Most people that come to me are not worried about that kind of thing. I think the oldest system I did recently was a 2007 Dell Dimension E521, 2GHz, 4GB RAM, 250GB HDD. This took about 1 1/2 to 2 hours to install Windows 7 from a retail disc. Then there was the 2+ hours of updates (5MB DSL connection).

I can't see anyway it took 1.5-2 hours for Win 7 from a retail disc unless something was wrong with the hardware or disc.

Are you counting a full format in that process rather than quick?

 

[Skaendo]

I can't see anyway it took 1.5-2 hours for Win 7 from a retail disc unless something was wrong with the hardware or disc.

Are you counting a full format in that process rather than quick?

No, did everything from install disc, quick format. Nothing wrong with the hardware, I am pretty good at making sure everything is right and good, BIOS is up to date etc. No extra cards. That Dimension was a stock unit that I upgraded the RAM & HDD. Went from 512MB RAM to 4GB, 80GB HDD to 250 GB. Everything else is stock.

*edit SATA HDD

 

[Burpo]

I did a complete Win7 install this weekend on a Dell Inspiron E1505 w/2Gb RAM and it took 36 minutes (no updates). Something is def wrong.. I have NEVER seen a Win 7 install take more than an hr.. usually less.
Windows 10 installed in about 15 min to SSD on my video rig.
I have been using Windows since 1990 with 3.0, and every version since. I was a beta tester for Chicago (Win95), and again for Win98, again for Win7, and now for Win 10.. It's far from perfect, but it's here to stay.

 

[Skaendo]

I did a complete Win7 install this weekend on a Dell Inspiron E1505 w/2Gb RAM and it took 36 minutes (no updates). Something is def wrong.. I have NEVER seens a Win 7 install take more than an hr.. usually less.
Windows 10 installed in about 15 min to SSD on my video rig.
I have been using Windows since 1990 with 3.0, and every version since. I was a beta tester for Chicago (Win95), and again for Win98, again for Win7, and now for Win 10.. It's far from perfect, but it's here to stay.

Dimension system is running just as to be expected. Recognizes RAM, SATA HDD, BIOS is latest version, (had to update BIOS to install new RAM). Windows recognizes everything fine now after install, even Windows Experience Rating went up a point and a half.

I have also used Windows for a very long time, (Win95). Before that I was using C=64's and Apple II's.

I may try Windows 10 after it is released, on my Windows machine. But if it too much like Windows 8 with metro apps & Xbox crap I will dump it right away. IMO Windows 7 was the last good version.

I want to get a SSD, but I want to see how they hold up & how they are made (internals).