What is going on with the story on ivermectin?

[Moonbeam]

It is quite simple: Willful ignorance causes direct, and indirect harm. ESPECIALLY when it comes to health care.

ANYTHING that causes harm that is WILLFUL is absolutely worthy of indignation. It is, quite simply, WILLFUL HARM.

If willful harm of others does not deserve indignation, than nothing does.

Stop making excuses for your mistakes and doubling down on willful ignorance that hurts others and yourself.

None of this is wrong. You have simply not understood the real point I am trying to make because you make the unconscious assumption that because there can be willful ignorance in the world, you personally therefore also believe you know it when you see it. You are claiming an objectivity you assume yourself to have which you can’t prove you have. I discovered through an effort to prove I had such objectivity that I could not do so. So, I am now as sure that you don’t have that capacity any more than I do which makes us sure of truth in completely different ways.

When you know you lack the ability or the right to judge, you become aware that you live in a lunatic world of people who believe they do.

All the madness in the world is the product of that delusion. All the struggle to prove yourself right, all the need to force others to comply, all the fears and anxieties and on and on disappear instantly when you have come yourself to the end of playing that game. You live in the world but you are not a part of that mass delusion that creates the appearance of willful ignorance. That is willful ignorance itself, that you are an objective judge. You cannot save the world but you can free yourself. The more who understand that the more awareness there will be.

Now when a madness wielding lunatic seeks to take your life and leaves you no other option but to take his you do so. You act. You don’t have to justify or get mad. Acting out one’s inner insanity in a harmful way is not allowed. Even if you don’t know anything you know that. Nobody needs a moral system to tell you what is true or false. When you don’t know any of that you still are the expression of your genes. We have the greatest capacity of any animal to experience a conscious state of joy in being, but only we can become fucked in the head.

 

[Moonbeam]

No, you have been very clear about your desire to force people to live in the way you find appropriate. A person without ego would not find it necessary to force anyone to do anything.

I would use force to stop a young person suffering from a negative self image from taking their life. I would use force to prevent someone from using force to harm someone else out of malicious rage. I do not think I would worry for a second that I would do so out of ego so I guess I disagree. One can use force to change the actions of others and not have it be due to ego.

 

[fskimospy]

I would use force to stop a young person suffering from a negative self image from taking their life. I would use force to prevent someone from using force to harm someone else out of malicious rage. I do not think I would worry for a second that I would do so out of ego so I guess I disagree. One can use force to change the actions of others and not have it be due to ego.

All of those things are you using force to make things the way you believe they should be. Using force isn’t always bad!

This is where you and I differ. I think the world is best where people can choose to live however they want. You believe the world is best when they live only in ways you deem acceptable - it’s amusing to me that you don’t see this for what it is but then again you don’t understand how people work so I guess it’s not surprising you’re similarly blind about how you work.

 

[interchange]

What can be done though, with relatively little effort, is elimination of falsehoods. One could probably argue that in the information age, the ability to quickly identify misinformation is one of if not the most important skills one can possess. If a person is unwilling or unable to work on this skill, they are going to be a danger to themselves and to others.

What do you mean by relatively little effort? What would you do about those who are recalcitrant?

 

[dank69]

What do you mean by relatively little effort? What would you do about those who are recalcitrant?

Relatively little effort means relative to the effort required to find truth. It seems like some people think that just because it's difficult to figure out the "truth" that it also means it's just as difficult to figure out who is definitely lying, which in most cases is not difficult at all.

I need specifics before I can answer your second question.

 

[interchange]

Relatively little effort means relative to the effort required to find truth. It seems like some people think that just because it's difficult to figure out the "truth" that it also means it's just as difficult to figure out who is definitely lying, which in most cases is not difficult at all.

By lying I assume you mean willful spread of known false information. It depends on the person and situation how difficult that is in my opinion. It is much more dangerous when people spread disinformation to prey on groups of people who will not recognize it as such.

I need specifics before I can answer your second question.

You said:

If a person is unwilling or unable to work on this skill, they are going to be a danger to themselves and to others.

What would you do about these people?

 

[Moonbeam]

All of those things are you using force to make things the way you believe they should be. Using force isn’t always bad!

This is where you and I differ. I think the world is best where people can choose to live however they want. You believe the world is best when they live only in ways you deem acceptable - it’s amusing to me that you don’t see this for what it is but then again you don’t understand how people work so I guess it’s not surprising you’re similarly blind about how you work.

I think your view is that the shadows on Plato's cave are the real world and that people should be free to chose the shadow they most like. I believe that people should at least have the opportunity to learn there is a world of sunshine that reveals what is shadow and what is light. What I am going to do is to maintain that a sunshine world exists because I once actually visited and the reality of which is also confirmed by multitudes of others generally referred to in your world as mad men but to me speak my language. A consciousness transforming experience can't be put into words but there are in the world those who have specialized in the knowledge of how to pass it on. That isn't me. I just got a glimpse and am not a permanent resident.

But when you transform from utter despair to it's absence a second later you know something strange took place something you would wish on others who suffer.

Your claim about me wanting to use force then, seems to me to be patently rubbish because it only happened when I gave up on my will or inner intention to force happiness to happen. I call this surrender, collapse, resignation, defeat, etc. that I, the ego I thought myself to need to be to be happy through some unknown event called grace, let go revealing a self I did not suspect was there.

So for me your idea that people should be free to live how they want means they should be free to pace back and forth in their cages. I have a different idea of what freedom is. I don't oppose that people are free to their own version of mental illness so long as it doesn't affect others but the problem with that is that would be zero people unaffected. You do not have to be insane yourself to suffer from those who are. The whole idea of Democracy is that there is something innate in people that is trustworthy, that rights are inalienable, and that subjective opinions don't apply. You won't make much of a citizen if you don't know yourself and instinctually grasp what those rights are. You either know or you don't and to know requires being real. What is real being?

 

[dank69]

By lying I assume you mean willful spread of known false information. It depends on the person and situation how difficult that is in my opinion. It is much more dangerous when people spread disinformation to prey on groups of people who will not recognize it as such.



You said:


What would you do about these people?

Stop treating their opinions as anything other than noise.

 

[Moonbeam]

Dunning Kruger

Yes, I take issue with using rage and righteous indignation interchangeably, but that is splitting hairs. My main objection is the use of justifies. I don't claim it justifies anything. I just want to highlight that what looks like sacred cows to you is not. What "willful ignorance" justifies is not my concern. What "willful ignorance" is and what it is not is why I chimed in.

I just changed up the words to describe rage, so I don't think I was wrong out of the box. Just saying.

You seem to contend that there is no such thing because there is no duality other than what we create. Please correct me if I am misinterpreting you. I contend that while duality may be of our own construction, the effects of such constructions can be observed and in many cases predictable and thus as real as anything else.

I am not contending there is no such thing because we do create it and the results of doing so have effects. But I also say that by acting as if there were something objectively real in our valuations of who is practicing willful ignorance, by believing we are qualified to know who is practicing it and when we are practicing it ourselves. There is know way to prove that your opinion of who and when are objectively valid. You claim to be a skeptic but you are not as big of one as I am. Since I can't prove there is a good and identify what it is I don't believe you can either. I am not a believer and you are in my opinion. Our conditions are exactly the opposite of what I think you believe they are. I am not a person qualified to judge what is willful and or ignorant because I don't who is willfully ignorant and who is simply programmed to believe as they do, that is to say unconscious that they are ignorant. Dunning-Kruger effect seems to be a real thing. So all of dangers you see in willful ignorance for me in my case apply when I see you believing what I know I can't, meaning you can't either.

You may also contend that the only way forward is for all humanity to wake up but I don't see that as realistic. I also think the search for truth is where most go wrong. I haven't seen evidence of any single truths above the basic biological level that can be applied to all humans without exception. As I age, the more I believe the search for "truth" is an exercise in futility.

That search had consequences for me beyond mere futility. It left me stripped to the biological level, to the self that is after a shipwreck. Turns out it wasn't what I thought it would be.

What can be done though, with relatively little effort, is elimination of falsehoods. One could probably argue that in the information age, the ability to quickly identify misinformation is one of if not the most important skills one can possess. If a person is unwilling or unable to work on this skill, they are going to be a danger to themselves and to others.

Yes, well we are having this conversation because I believe your certainty as to the ease with which such an ability is in your possession is ignorance of some kind or another. I would use the term willful as actually totally beyond ego control because it is in fact a manifestation of ego itself, a construct designed to protect the individual from knowing things that would bring up old feelings of pain.

The cure for this isn't rage but sympathy, empathy and love, something I wish we could have for our selves, for the beautiful creatures we were meant to be and lies hidden within as potential.

Additionally then I would say what I refer to under the rubric 'enlightenment' for lack of words for such experiences, is me having lost the belief in things you still believe in, namely that I can know things with certainty. Knowing is when there are no unconscious beliefs because the unconscious armor of the ego to protect the self has been taken down by some intense need followed by a deeper reality thus revealed.

 

[dank69]

Dunning Kruger

I just changed up the words to describe rage, so I don't think I was wrong out of the box. Just saying.



I am not contending there is no such thing because we do create it and the results of doing so have effects. But I also say that by acting as if there were something objectively real in our valuations of who is practicing willful ignorance, by believing we are qualified to know who is practicing it and when we are practicing it ourselves. There is know way to prove that your opinion of who and when are objectively valid. You claim to be a skeptic but you are not as big of one as I am. Since I can't prove there is a good and identify what it is I don't believe you can either. I am not a believer and you are in my opinion. Our conditions are exactly the opposite of what I think you believe they are. I am not a person qualified to judge what is willful and or ignorant because I don't who is willfully ignorant and who is simply programmed to believe as they do, that is to say unconscious that they are ignorant. Dunning-Kruger effect seems to be a real thing. So all of dangers you see in willful ignorance for me in my case apply when I see you believing what I know I can't, meaning you can't either.



That search had consequences for me beyond mere futility. It left me stripped to the biological level, to the self that is after a shipwreck. Turns out it wasn't what I thought it would be.



Yes, well we are having this conversation because I believe your certainty as to the ease with which such an ability is in your possession is ignorance of some kind or another. I would use the term willful as actually totally beyond ego control because it is in fact a manifestation of ego itself, a construct designed to protect the individual from knowing things that would bring up old feelings of pain.

The cure for this isn't rage but sympathy, empathy and love, something I wish we could have for our selves, for the beautiful creatures we were meant to be and lies hidden within as potential.

Additionally then I would say what I refer to under the rubric 'enlightenment' for lack of words for such experiences, is me having lost the belief in things you still believe in, namely that I can know things with certainty. Knowing is when there are no unconscious beliefs because the unconscious armor of the ego to protect the self has been taken down by some intense need followed by a deeper reality thus revealed.

What is the difference between someone who is willfully ignorant and someone who is "programmed" to be willfully ignorant? All I mean by willfully ignorant is someone who doesn't want to acknowledge facts that contradict a belief to which some person has attached their ego.

 

[Moonbeam]

What is the difference between someone who is willfully ignorant and someone who is "programmed" to be willfully ignorant? All I mean by willfully ignorant is someone who doesn't want to acknowledge facts that contradict a belief to which some person has attached their ego.

The difference is between being programmed via pain one would not have survived were it not pushed out of consciousness and willfully paying no attention to a truth you are conscious you are lying about. If you have ever been to a psychoanalysis you will surely know you can't just lie down on a couch and cough up your entire repertoire of unconscious feelings. It takes a lot of time and hard work and events to react to to bring feelings to the surface much less feel them so vividly they lead right into reliving a traumatic event.

That we have voluntary access to what we feel is a delusion you can only really know is a delusion by breaking through the barriers of defensiveness. Any serious approach to what we are feeling is likely to run into the explosion of rage.

We like to assume others are willful in the harm they do because we want to feel entitled to that rage so we aren't left to suffer it. That is what the cross Jesus bore symbolizes, the limits of rage, the hopeless inevitability of loss, the birth of self compassion and the re-emergence and resurrection of love. There is no one to blame. The perps know not what they do.

To be willfully ignorant isn't ignorance. It is knowing you are saying what you know to be a lie. This is an act of cunning devised by people who have no organic shame, practice cunning, and are psychopathic, the sickest of the sick.

They and they alone truly know who they are and they pay a price they will never know they pay, an absence of the joy of being.

 

[dank69]

The difference is between being programmed via pain one would not have survived were it not pushed out of consciousness and willfully paying no attention to a truth you are conscious you are lying about. If you have ever been to a psychoanalysis you will surely know you can't just lie down on a couch and cough up your entire repertoire of unconscious feelings. It takes a lot of time and hard work and events to react to to bring feelings to the surface much less feel them so vividly they lead right into reliving a traumatic event.

That we have voluntary access to what we feel is a delusion you can only really know is a delusion by breaking through the barriers of defensiveness. Any serious approach to what we are feeling is likely to run into the explosion of rage.

We like to assume others are willful in the harm they do because we want to feel entitled to that rage so we aren't left to suffer it. That is what the cross Jesus bore symbolizes, the limits of rage, the hopeless inevitability of loss, the birth of self compassion and the re-emergence and resurrection of love. There is no one to blame. The perps know not what they do.

Well then let me clarify that when I say "willfully ignorant" I mean both people who know they are lying and people who do not know. In fact, I'm mostly talking about those in the latter category. They don't know they are lying but they know when a fact makes them uncomfortable. I don't really care about the 'why' of it like you do. I've surrendered to the probability that we will never know why. Even if you found a magic cure they'd convince themselves you are trying to take their freedom anyway.

 

[Amused]

None of this is wrong. You have simply not understood the real point I am trying to make because you make the unconscious assumption that because there can be willful ignorance in the world, you personally therefore also believe you know it when you see it. You are claiming an objectivity you assume yourself to have which you can’t prove you have. I discovered through an effort to prove I had such objectivity that I could not do so. So, I am now as sure that you don’t have that capacity any more than I do which makes us sure of truth in completely different ways.

When you know you lack the ability or the right to judge, you become aware that you live in a lunatic world of people who believe they do.

All the madness in the world is the product of that delusion. All the struggle to prove yourself right, all the need to force others to comply, all the fears and anxieties and on and on disappear instantly when you have come yourself to the end of playing that game. You live in the world but you are not a part of that mass delusion that creates the appearance of willful ignorance. That is willful ignorance itself, that you are an objective judge. You cannot save the world but you can free yourself. The more who understand that the more awareness there will be.

Now when a madness wielding lunatic seeks to take your life and leaves you no other option but to take his you do so. You act. You don’t have to justify or get mad. Acting out one’s inner insanity in a harmful way is not allowed. Even if you don’t know anything you know that. Nobody needs a moral system to tell you what is true or false. When you don’t know any of that you still are the expression of your genes. We have the greatest capacity of any animal to experience a conscious state of joy in being, but only we can become fucked in the head.

What a load of shit. Willful ignorance is denying germ theory and allowing your child to die of a treatable infection.

Un-fscking-excusable.

 

[Moonbeam]

Well then let me clarify that when I say "willfully ignorant" I mean both people who know they are lying and people who do not know. In fact, I'm mostly talking about those in the latter category. They don't know they are lying but they know when a fact makes them uncomfortable. I don't really care about the 'why' of it like you do. I've surrendered to the probability that we will never know why. Even if you found a magic cure they'd convince themselves you are trying to take their freedom anyway.

The reality you describe here is illogical to me. I find the idea of not caring which camp a person of ignorance is in impossible to ignore. How can a person who grew up pig ignorant as a result of growing up in a pig ignorant cultural environment possible deserve the same moral condemnation as a person who via the use of his or her intellect play people like that for personal advantage.

To me it is logically impossible to put them in the same box. These are two separate classes of people deserving of two differing levels of response. What you avoided doing in your post then, in my opinion, was to abdicate your own personal duty to judge each type fairly by saying you don’t care which is which and you don’t know why each is each and it doesn’t matter because even If we did know both would reject a cure.

But such a path out of your surrender to such a negative world view is not one I can share with you. I believe I know why each is each and what a cure might look like. What I am unable to do, having made considerable effort, is to convince myself that I can offer up to you some secret sauce as to how I can magically tell who is who.

I am bound by a personal realization that when it comes to the judgment of others I am forbidden the luxury of being absolutely sure.

That condemnatory rage that you feel that is the result of a life of suffering form the madness of others I feel morally bound not to pass on. I have to eat my own grief. I am not fit to judge. I am trapped in the world as it is. I could find no justification for revenge.

There is only the stupidity of the laws of the land as written according to the level of wisdom we have achieved. Mounting frustration and the power shift to the stupidity of Republican culture plus a growing rage on the left is driving new law backward it seems. Everybody is throwing their ignorant two cents on the scales.

One thing I can perhaps agree with you on is that the reason we are where we are in the world today is the result of willful ignorance, including yours and mine. Let he who is without sin cast the stones. I want out of the fucking line to be first except I am willfully ignorant.

 

[Moonbeam]

What a load of shit. Willful ignorance is denying germ theory and allowing your child to die of a treatable infection.

Un-fscking-excusable.

My idea of a load of shit is that every parent whose child dies because of ignorance of germ theory did so by conscious intention to kill that child. I do not believe, despite a tremendous level of hatred of children for reminding us how dead we are that exists, the conscious intention of such believers is the death of their children. They are perfectly content to kill them psychically as being quite sufficient.

Deniers of germ theory grew up in an ignorance not of their own making. Lucky you is not entitled to condemn those mired in it. You can bring light or you can indulge your hate via condemnation. Start extremely locally.

 

[fskimospy]

I think your view is that the shadows on Plato's cave are the real world and that people should be free to chose the shadow they most like. I believe that people should at least have the opportunity to learn there is a world of sunshine that reveals what is shadow and what is light. What I am going to do is to maintain that a sunshine world exists because I once actually visited and the reality of which is also confirmed by multitudes of others generally referred to in your world as mad men but to me speak my language. A consciousness transforming experience can't be put into words but there are in the world those who have specialized in the knowledge of how to pass it on. That isn't me. I just got a glimpse and am not a permanent resident.

But when you transform from utter despair to it's absence a second later you know something strange took place something you would wish on others who suffer.

Your claim about me wanting to use force then, seems to me to be patently rubbish because it only happened when I gave up on my will or inner intention to force happiness to happen. I call this surrender, collapse, resignation, defeat, etc. that I, the ego I thought myself to need to be to be happy through some unknown event called grace, let go revealing a self I did not suspect was there.

So for me your idea that people should be free to live how they want means they should be free to pace back and forth in their cages. I have a different idea of what freedom is. I don't oppose that people are free to their own version of mental illness so long as it doesn't affect others but the problem with that is that would be zero people unaffected. You do not have to be insane yourself to suffer from those who are. The whole idea of Democracy is that there is something innate in people that is trustworthy, that rights are inalienable, and that subjective opinions don't apply. You won't make much of a citizen if you don't know yourself and instinctually grasp what those rights are. You either know or you don't and to know requires being real. What is real being?

This is psychobabble.

 

[dank69]

The reality you describe here is illogical to me. I find the idea of not caring which camp a person of ignorance is in impossible to ignore. How can a person who grew up pig ignorant as a result of growing up in a pig ignorant cultural environment possible deserve the same moral condemnation as a person who via the use of his or her intellect play people like that for personal advantage.

...

Let me stop you right there. Who said they deserve the same moral condemnation? Not me. All I'm saying is that we don't need to pretend anything they say is valid. We can dismiss them out of hand and it has nothing to do with our sacred cows. I'll examine my sacred cows when intelligent, honest people tell me there is a problem with them. I'll also do my best not to have any sacred cows in the first place.

 

[Moonbeam]

Let me stop you right there. Who said they deserve the same moral condemnation? Not me. All I'm saying is that we don't need to pretend anything they say is valid. We can dismiss them out of hand and it has nothing to do with our sacred cows. I'll examine my sacred cows when intelligent, honest people tell me there is a problem with them. I'll also do my best not to have any sacred cows in the first place.

Your post #107:

“It doesn't help when people who know better lead credence to the illusion that it is rage against "anything challenging their political sacred cows" instead of what it actually is: rage against willful ignorance.”

I am operating on the inner sense that rage goes hand in hand with moral condemnation.

To rage against the ignorance of people who grew up in the dark, without the advantages you may have had to expand more rationally and lump them in with con artists practicing cunning for political gain, is willful ignorance in my book because the only way to permit such blindness of the difference to coexist is because you are operating of assumptions of identity of the two that amount to what I refer to as a sacred cow.

You permit yourself to hate willful ignorance when some of that ignorance,the greatest part is not willful. That it is even referred to as willful tips one’s hat that one is in fact engaging in bigotry. Unfortunately, that punitive attitude is so prevalent among conservatives and liberals alike they can do little else but war.

 

[dank69]

Your post #107:

“It doesn't help when people who know better lead credence to the illusion that it is rage against "anything challenging their political sacred cows" instead of what it actually is: rage against willful ignorance.”

I am operating on the inner sense that rage goes hand in hand with moral condemnation.

To rage against the ignorance of people who grew up in the dark, without the advantages you may have had to expand more rationally and lump them in with con artists practicing cunning for political gain, is willful ignorance in my book because the only way to permit such blindness of the difference to coexist is because you are operating of assumptions of identity of the two that amount to what I refer to as a sacred cow.

You permit yourself to hate willful ignorance when some of that ignorance,the greatest part is not willful. That it is even referred to as willful tips one’s hat that one is in fact engaging in bigotry. Unfortunately, that punitive attitude is so prevalent among conservatives and liberals alike they can do little else but war.

But I never said the SAME moral condemnation. Surely your inner sense is aware that there are different levels of moral condemnation, right? So no, I'm not lumping them together because I believe they are equally immoral. I'm lumping them together because they should be equally ignored/dismissed.

 

[MichaelMay]

Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19 Infection: A Systematic Review, Meta-analysis, and Trial Sequential Analysis to Inform Clinical Guidelines (nih.gov)

Yes, that is the one I was referring to, the pre-print that is retracted because the sources used falsified data.

Thank you for proving my point.

Effectiveness of ivermectin-based multidrug therapy in severely hypoxic, ambulatory COVID-19 patients (nih.gov)

IVM used alone has been tested in more than 20 randomized, controlled trials (RCTs) for COVID-19 treatment, with statistically highly significant clinical benefits in almost all of these and an average of 62% reduction in risk of death

That is NOT a double blind, placebo controlled and peer reviewed study and neither are any of the rest.

Also... They had an interest in showing that it worked, scroll down to the footnotes:
"This study was funded by ProgenaBiome, LLC. S Hazan declares that she has pecuniary interest in Topelia Pty Ltd in Australia and Topelia Pty Ltd in the USA where development of COVID-19 preventative/treatment options are being pursued. She has also filed patents relevant to coronavirus treatments. She is the founder and owner of Microbiome Research Foundation, ProgenaBiome and Ventura Clinical Trials. TJ Borody declares that he has pecuniary interest in Topelia Pty Ltd in Australia and Topelia Therapeutics, Inc. in the USA developing COVID-19 preventative/treatment medications. He has also filed patents relevant to COVID-19 treatments. S Dave declares she has corporate affiliation to McKesson Specialty Health / Ontada and North End Advisory, LLC, and affiliation to Microbiome Research Foundation (a non-profit). S Dave is unaware of and not directly involved in COVID-19 treatment–relevant projects at McKesson, but they may exist. The authors have no other relevant affiliations or financial involvement with any organization or entity with a financial interest in or financial conflict with the subject matter or materials discussed in the manuscript apart from those disclosed

S Dave provided medical writing assistance for this paper and was funded by ProgenaBiome and Microbiome Research Foundation."

 

[Moonbeam]

But I never said the SAME moral condemnation. Surely your inner sense is aware that there are different levels of moral condemnation, right? So no, I'm not lumping them together because I believe they are equally immoral. I'm lumping them together because they should be equally ignored/dismissed.

You realize, of course, that "should" solves nothing. How are people who "don't" going to go from there to dismissal. I think the prescription you offer only leads to more frustrated rage because you offer a solution without an option to get there to people who, in my opinion, are suffering from a motivational disease that is there precisely for the purpose of insuring they actually never consider that 'should". Also, you are left with such a "should" because you tell yourself we will never understand such people or how they got to be the way they are or how to help them. But I disagree. And before we can even get to the question of how to begin to go in that direction (to help) we need first to see a need for the one other than the one we practice now, moral condemnations combined with "shoulds".

If, as I say, that people are programmed machines conditioned by threat and pain, and having a lived experience of what it is like to be the outsider, to be rejected as unworthy of love and protection as a result of being put down verbally as children along with varying degrees of physical abuse, to expose them now as adults to the very thing that made them sick in the first place, more condemnatory rage, you will only add to their skill set at armoring up.

The cure for self hate, I would suggest, lies in two directions. One is the development of personal capacity. That can take a myriad of forms from enlightened education including psychological information, economic development that provides opportunities for self-support in all fields of of human aptitude. This would require a political revolution from punishment base treats to force conformity to consensual buy in to social norms as a result of agreeableness. The point here is that fear is the mind killer. It creates hatred of the other. Winners are more likely to help others to win than people who feel they have lost everything.

The way to increase the capacity of people to love is to expose them to more of it rather than tell them they are unworthy. They wouldn't act as they do if they felt worthy and telling them they are not only reinforces their inner need to deny it.

Secondly, the more we understand that the enemy we face is self hate the less we will unconsciously feed it. Those most lost are those who have no idea what the enemy is. When one begins to take seriously the idea that all hate is at its core hate for ourselves we were inculcated with by being put down as children the less we will likely act out on that feeling as immutable fact. When you see the danger of putting people down, of wishing them to feel bad as a way to deal with the threat we imagine them to be, the less we will spread the disease.

The cure to ignorance is knowledge is job one is to get some understanding of what real knowledge is. I hope to add my 2 cents to that in this conversation.

 

[Pohemi]

 

[dank69]

You realize, of course, that "should" solves nothing. How are people who "don't" going to go from there to dismissal. I think the prescription you offer only leads to more frustrated rage because you offer a solution without an option to get there to people who, in my opinion, are suffering from a motivational disease that is there precisely for the purpose of insuring they actually never consider that 'should". Also, you are left with such a "should" because you tell yourself we will never understand such people or how they got to be the way they are or how to help them. But I disagree. And before we can even get to the question of how to begin to go in that direction (to help) we need first to see a need for the one other than the one we practice now, moral condemnations combined with "shoulds".

If, as I say, that people are programmed machines conditioned by threat and pain, and having a lived experience of what it is like to be the outsider, to be rejected as unworthy of love and protection as a result of being put down verbally as children along with varying degrees of physical abuse, to expose them now as adults to the very thing that made them sick in the first place, more condemnatory rage, you will only add to their skill set at armoring up.

The cure for self hate, I would suggest, lies in two directions. One is the development of personal capacity. That can take a myriad of forms from enlightened education including psychological information, economic development that provides opportunities for self-support in all fields of of human aptitude. This would require a political revolution from punishment base treats to force conformity to consensual buy in to social norms as a result of agreeableness. The point here is that fear is the mind killer. It creates hatred of the other. Winners are more likely to help others to win than people who feel they have lost everything.

The way to increase the capacity of people to love is to expose them to more of it rather than tell them they are unworthy. They wouldn't act as they do if they felt worthy and telling them they are not only reinforces their inner need to deny it.

Secondly, the more we understand that the enemy we face is self hate the less we will unconsciously feed it. Those most lost are those who have no idea what the enemy is. When one begins to take seriously the idea that all hate is at its core hate for ourselves we were inculcated with by being put down as children the less we will likely act out on that feeling as immutable fact. When you see the danger of putting people down, of wishing them to feel bad as a way to deal with the threat we imagine them to be, the less we will spread the disease.

The cure to ignorance is knowledge is job one is to get some understanding of what real knowledge is. I hope to add my 2 cents to that in this conversation.

Yes, you want to know why why why. Good luck on your quest.

 

[Pohemi]

Yes, you want to know why why why. Good luck on your quest.

IDK, the way most of his statements read to me, he already knows the why why why. He's just trying to beat it into everyone else, because everyone was abused the same, everyone reacted the same, everyone was led to the same outcome.

I can't argue against his personal 'truth', but I find it hilarious how he contends to apply that truth to all; that his moment of clarity showed him that what he claims does indeed apply to every human on earth that hasn't reached 'enlightenment', death of ego, etc. It's also a bit funny how he's the only one who can understand these things.

See, you don't know why you are broken because reasons, BUT HE DOES.

But hey...it's not his ego.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yes, you want to know why why why. Good luck on your quest. You wanted to know why people are so called willfully blind so I showed you.

Pomehi reads better than you do.

IDK, the way most of his statements read to me, he already knows the why why why. He's just trying to beat it into everyone else, because everyone was abused the same, everyone reacted the same, everyone was led to the same outcome.

I can't argue against his personal 'truth', but I find it hilarious how he contends to apply that truth to all; that his moment of clarity showed him that what he claims does indeed apply to every human on earth that hasn't reached 'enlightenment', death of ego, etc. It's also a bit funny how he's the only one who can understand these things.

See, you don't know why you are broken because reasons, BUT HE DOES.

But hey...it's not his ego.

Definitely not ego. It's just that Dank's off-target and incredible rage threatens my Buddha serenity. It's just too, too scary. You have to be so very careful with anger management. Trust me, I killed my last three therapists because I knew what was coming after they looked at me funny.

Sadly, when it comes to me being the only one who knows these things, that would require you to get an education, something I wonder if you would be willing to do. The following is a lecture on Zen, an introduction to which I believed saved my life. It introduced to me the idea that while I was right about the fact that everything I had been taught was of value was false, the Zen folk said the same things I saw but unlike me were fine with all of it. I had to find out how that was possible. I can follow that up, I'm pretty sure by an endless number of other examples from a wide range of traditions.

Thanks for mentioning 'only I know'. It was nice to hear someone express in their own way what I have striven to express to you. I was especially ammused to hear him say "we hate ourselves". I also found his description of LA housing to be fun. Probably by now it has all slid down the hill and they have rebuilt it taller.