What is cpu lapping?

[Rubycon]

It happens when you o/c so far that you're behind everyone else in position and they laugh at you being slower but the reality is you are so far ahead of them in the race that you are lapping them.

On a serious note...

Has anyone considered using the services of a machine shop to professionally true the surfaces?

 

[covert24]

id rather do it myself for 6-8 bux than pay some guy 20-30 bux to do it for me and have the same or almost the same benefits.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Rubycon
It happens when you o/c so far that you're behind everyone else in position and they laugh at you being slower but the reality is you are so far ahead of them in the race that you are lapping them.

On a serious note...

Has anyone considered using the services of a machine shop to professionally true the surfaces?

I have never been inside a machine shop that was what I'd consider "naked exposed semiconductor chip" friendly. Do they exist?

I have often wondered how well a head planerizer would do on an IHS or a HSF...but they seem too small for that kind of equipment.

Now back in college we use to make polished micrograph specimens to view grain structure of metals after heat treatments and the like...and those machines would be perfect for lapping/polishing IHS and HSF...if only I still lived in my college town.

 

[Rubycon]

Well if one made a jig to hold the cpu safely I think it would be OK. I'd like to see CMM runs of heatspreaders AND a few TRUE's as they are horrible!

 

[imported_wired247]

Just because it lowered your temps 10C does not mean it was worthwhile.

The same amount of heat is released into your case, and the amount of speed you gain from OCing that last extra bit will be unlikely to show up except on artificial benchmarks.

And again, people who have taken the time (recently) to lap their processors will be more likely to disagree with me. Even though I have done it in the past, and still stand firmly that it is rather unnecessary unless you are looking for bleeding edge OCs

 

[covert24]

Originally posted by: wired247
Just because it lowered your temps 10C does not mean it was worthwhile.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: wired247
Just because it lowered your temps 10C does not mean it was worthwhile.

The same amount of heat is released into your case, and the amount of speed you gain from OCing that last extra bit will be unlikely to show up except on artificial benchmarks.

If I can run my Q6600 10C cooler for the same or less fan speed then there is significant value.

Originally posted by: wired247
And again, people who have taken the time (recently) to lap their processors will be more likely to disagree with me. Even though I have done it in the past, and still stand firmly that it is rather unnecessary unless you are looking for bleeding edge OCs

And if you were thread crapping or just plain trolling would people know the difference or know to treat you any differently? You clearly are incapable of seeing beyond yourself and are intent on crapping on the thread for anyone else who may find value in a 10C temp drop.

Thanks for expressing, and re-expressing the same opinion. We get it. You tried and it didn't work for you. Thanks, but your experience and value system does not HAVE to be shared by everyone else on this forum. :roll:

 

[Tempered81]

Whats that 'FINISH HIM" move that stone cold steve austin used to do in wrestling? Like he would grab the guys chin and spin around and bust his face on Stone cold's shoulder blade. The fakest looking thing ever that wouldn't hurt someone in real life, and just look stupid, but would knock out any wrestler there ever was for the 10-sec count? i can't remember the name of it, but it's kinda like what Idontcare just did to Wired.

heh

 

[covert24]

Originally posted by: jaredpace
Whats that 'FINISH HIM" move that stone cold steve austin used to do in wrestling? Like he would grab the guys chin and spin around and bust his face on Stone cold's shoulder blade. The fakest looking thing ever that wouldn't hurt someone in real life, and just look stupid, but would knock out any wrestler there ever was for the 10-sec count? i can't remember the name of it, but it's kinda like what Idontcare just did to Wired.

heh

lmao. didnt see that coming when i read that hahaha

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: wired247
Just because it lowered your temps 10C does not mean it was worthwhile.

The same amount of heat is released into your case, and the amount of speed you gain from OCing that last extra bit will be unlikely to show up except on artificial benchmarks.

If I can run my Q6600 10C cooler for the same or less fan speed then there is significant value.

Originally posted by: wired247
And again, people who have taken the time (recently) to lap their processors will be more likely to disagree with me. Even though I have done it in the past, and still stand firmly that it is rather unnecessary unless you are looking for bleeding edge OCs

And if you were thread crapping or just plain trolling would people know the difference or know to treat you any differently? You clearly are incapable of seeing beyond yourself and are intent on crapping on the thread for anyone else who may find value in a 10C temp drop.

Thanks for expressing, and re-expressing the same opinion. We get it. You tried and it didn't work for you. Thanks, but your experience and value system does not HAVE to be shared by everyone else on this forum. :roll:

Thanks, I said that above, and he doesn;t get it.

And one last comment, I have an X3210, that before I lapped it, was running 80c on a Ninja Sythe NON_OC'ed, and now its running 60c. Its the wierdest chip I have ever seen, as it runs the hottest of all my quads with the lowest vid (1.25)

 

[Tempered81]

mark your two g0 q6600's on TRUES on the DQ6 mobos - those are your p95 stable clocks, right? whats the temps on those, and how high have you clocked them? also, did you lap the IHS or just the true?

 

[Markfw]

They run ~55-58c full load. They run 2 instances of F@H 24/7 for 3 months, so I know they are stable (I don;t do P95, F@H is even more demanding). Started at 3609, and had to go down from there. Was OK at 3610 for 1 month, then got of couple of EUE's so I went down. one EUE/month is the most I allow.

And yes, just lapped the trues's

 

[aigomorla]

This is a lapping a CPU:

http://i125.photobucket.com/al...aigomorla/IMG_0569.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/al...aigomorla/IMG_0703.jpg

And yes it voids your warrenty.


And yes its important on quadcores. It can help significantly by evening out your cores from each other on load like this:

http://i125.photobucket.com/al...p73/aigomorla/Temp.jpg


Also im starting to guess... that you need to match mirror on both sink and ihs to see full benfits of a good lap job. I think you want both to be near same quality so they match and allign better.

I just reciently noticed another 2-3C drop when i relapped the IHS down to 2000 grit. I usually stop at 1000 grit. My sinks are all lapped to 2000 grit from the manufactor. I think maybe more on my EK Supreme.

Originally posted by: jaredpace
mark your two g0 q6600's on TRUES on the DQ6 mobos - those are your p95 stable clocks, right? whats the temps on those, and how high have you clocked them? also, did you lap the IHS or just the true?

Oh BTW jared... mark fell in love with the DQ6 on my recomendation.

Trust me... i know my boards when it comes to overclocking and stability.

Sorry for the OT

 

[imported_wired247]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: wired247
Just because it lowered your temps 10C does not mean it was worthwhile.

The same amount of heat is released into your case, and the amount of speed you gain from OCing that last extra bit will be unlikely to show up except on artificial benchmarks.

If I can run my Q6600 10C cooler for the same or less fan speed then there is significant value.

Originally posted by: wired247
And again, people who have taken the time (recently) to lap their processors will be more likely to disagree with me. Even though I have done it in the past, and still stand firmly that it is rather unnecessary unless you are looking for bleeding edge OCs

And if you were thread crapping or just plain trolling would people know the difference or know to treat you any differently? You clearly are incapable of seeing beyond yourself and are intent on crapping on the thread for anyone else who may find value in a 10C temp drop.

Thanks for expressing, and re-expressing the same opinion. We get it. You tried and it didn't work for you. Thanks, but your experience and value system does not HAVE to be shared by everyone else on this forum. :roll:

That's fine, if everyone agreed on the same thing I think life would be incredibly boring.

However, your argument is "pot to kettle: black"... even so this makes no difference because one man's wasted time is another's most favorite hobby.

Difference of opinion does not equal trolling.

 

[Markfw]

wired247, so you maintain, that when you have a very "non-flat" HSF, and your temps are out of control (>75c) and you want to remedy that by lapping the HSF, it is worthless ? This kind of statement is unsupportable, and we all know it, you need to give up, as at this point its not an opinion, its just WRONG !

And one last thing.. Opinion definition: (wkipedia)
"An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. ..."

Well, we can prove that lapping has value, thus it is not an opinion, so it is not a difference of opinion, so it must be trolling.....

 

[imported_wired247]

I don't remember being posed with that exact situation before, so please don't decide what my answer would've been.

My ORIGINAL statement is that it is almost worthless for 99.99% of users. That is an opinion.

Several of you tech savvy folks on anandtech are in the top 0.01% of users, THUS my statement MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.

For your average user, who does not need to OC to the bleeding edge, or who might not OC at all, lapping is almost completely worthless!

I honestly don't mind if you guys disagree with me, but I refuse to be unfairly accused of trolling. I am not a troll... I only post to try to help people.

If you want to, have a moderator ban me and delete all my posts, I'd sooner take that as a punishment than just disappear from this thread after being attacked for "trolling"


Perhaps there is confusion as to my definition of "Worth"

In this case I would consider "worth" to be "some practical utility that justifies time, effort, and risk"

and IMHO, lapping is not justified time effort and risk for your average user. If you disagree with that statement then so be it! We are all here for the same reasons ... not to yell and scream at each other about who is right and wrong.

 

[Markfw]

Even your common user keeps posting on this forum ( and there is a couple of threads on the first page right now) where people have trouble with their temps. They remount, and temps are still bad, and after much experience, I KNOW that not all of these "common problems" are due to incompetant people. Some of those could be helped by simply lapping their HSF, not even their CPU, and I for one had the exact problem with an X3210 !

And to answer your edit, there are several posts I have seen by "common users, not even OC'ing" that have temp problems. And for those, there IS benefit to help them fix their problem my lapping.

Again from wikipedia:
"A troll can disrupt the discussion on a newsgroup, disseminate bad advice, and damage the feeling of trust in the newsgroup community."

And telling people that lapping has no value is misleading. You could say "if your temps are in the normal range, and you are not overclocking, then lapping only extends the life of your processor by an amount that probably takes it beyond the usable life span".

Thats a lot of conditions, as we know it virtually always has value, and by keeping the temps down, always extends the life of your processor.

 

[imported_wired247]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
Even your common user keeps posting on this forum ( and there is a couple of threads on the first page right now) where people have trouble with their temps. They remount, and temps are still bad, and after much experience, I KNOW that not all of these "common problems" are due to incompetant people. Some of those could be helped by simply lapping their HSF, not even their CPU, and I for one had the exact problem with an X3210 !

I would wholeheartedly *agree* with you that if you have a temperature *Problem* that can be fixed by lapping, then that would be the best way to go about fixing it.



Incompetence should not be assumed, but it is apparent in some cases. for example, some people don't know how to apply arctic silver properly and may experience quite a bit of trouble as a result. in this case, lapping may be a fix to their problem but if they had applied AS properly in the first place, they may not have had a reason to pull out the sandpaper


FWIW I am an engineer by trade.... I usually look for the easiest solutions, not necessarily the best.

In all earnesty I have a lot of intrigue and respect for people who take their computers to the next level through lapping, overclocking, watercooling, RAIDing, etc.

 

[Markfw]

If you keep making exceptions to your opinion, then we will end up agreeing.....See my edit above....It always adds value, but maybe not enough in a small number of cases.

 

[imported_wired247]

It is true that I keep adding exceptions and changing my opinion slightly.

I suppose that is the point of people making a persuasive argument -- to bring others around to your side.

I spoke too rashly and without explaining myself, and now I suppose I'm paying for it but at least I am sticking around to discuss why I feel the way I do.

I'm not as stubborn as you might think.

Also, I may not have built 100s of rigs, but I have experience where it counts, and as an engineer, I'm usually just happy when things work. I have enough micromanaging headaches at work, that I like my rig to be easy, stable, and reliable.



You do have a point about extending the life of your processor. However, a stock clocked processor that has not been tortured should last a VERY long time. By the time it would've failed, I personally wouldn't give a crap anyway.

 

[Markfw]

OK, Thats good. On this forums discussions are to help the uninformed, and those of us who have built literally 100's of rigs have found some of these things out, you just don't have the experience, but you do have the guts to admit it !

Lets just agree that its not always worth the effort, but usually has some benefit. 99.9% is WAY to high, as I find it hard to find cases where it doesn't help.

To an OC'er, a LOT of benefit.

 

[imported_wired247]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
wired247, so you maintain, that when you have a very "non-flat" HSF, and your temps are out of control (>75c) and you want to remedy that by lapping the HSF, it is worthless ? This kind of statement is unsupportable, and we all know it, you need to give up, as at this point its not an opinion, its just WRONG !

And one last thing.. Opinion definition: (wkipedia)
"An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. ..."

Well, we can prove that lapping has value, thus it is not an opinion, so it is not a difference of opinion, so it must be trolling.....

Had to do this to you, mr. wikipedia

Wikipedia - Straw Man Argument
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]

and with regards to your latest statement, you have certainly won me over and I'll agree

 

[Phunk0ne]

I might've missed it, but isn't this part of the forum called "CPUs and Overclocking. If your person's heart equals that of an avid overclocker, you would not think twice about lapping both your IHS and Heatsink. Maybe it seems odd to you, but trust me, If I can find/read about a way to lower my temps by 2C-4C with this setup at the same frequency, I would try it out
An overclocker is not looking to fight the heat issue alone, but really to find the best solution to keep things nice and cold.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: wired247

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: wired247
Just because it lowered your temps 10C does not mean it was worthwhile.

The same amount of heat is released into your case, and the amount of speed you gain from OCing that last extra bit will be unlikely to show up except on artificial benchmarks.

If I can run my Q6600 10C cooler for the same or less fan speed then there is significant value.

Originally posted by: wired247
And again, people who have taken the time (recently) to lap their processors will be more likely to disagree with me. Even though I have done it in the past, and still stand firmly that it is rather unnecessary unless you are looking for bleeding edge OCs

And if you were thread crapping or just plain trolling would people know the difference or know to treat you any differently? You clearly are incapable of seeing beyond yourself and are intent on crapping on the thread for anyone else who may find value in a 10C temp drop.

Thanks for expressing, and re-expressing the same opinion. We get it. You tried and it didn't work for you. Thanks, but your experience and value system does not HAVE to be shared by everyone else on this forum. :roll:

That's fine, if everyone agreed on the same thing I think life would be incredibly boring.

However, your argument is "pot to kettle: black"... even so this makes no difference because one man's wasted time is another's most favorite hobby.

Difference of opinion does not equal trolling.

The difference, wired247, between you and the majority of the other posters here is that when you express your opinion you simultaneously go out of your way to pre-emptively destroy/refute/invalidate the opinions of other posters here.

You quote the straw-man argument. Very nice. What about the argument of "the only way I can add credibility to my own statement is by destroying or undermining the credibility of those people who oppose it"...Oh wait, you provide a shining example of this behavior in your own quoted post above.

I bolded the offending portion of your post in the quote above. You don't provide data to counter our opinions that lapping is value-add to us, instead you provide a psychological attack on the very nature of why we have opinions and thusly why our opinions should be disregarded.

THAT is considered trolling. If you can't see the difference between your behaviour and the rest of the forum posters then no one can help you here.