What is a libertarian?

[IdaGno]

Naive.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: zendari
Basically leftwingers who know economics.

Or rightwingers who've read the constitution

Well, if you call leftwingers' bypassing of the 2nd amendment and other "outdated" parts reading.

Who said anything about leftwingers (other than you)? I was just saying righties might be considered libertarians if they bothered to read the constitution, as a humerous response to your statement that lefties might be libertarian if they picked up an economics textbook.

I mean, if we're being totally fair here, the righties are hardly perfect when it comes to economics either. Really, we'd be better off if EVERYONE, on the left and the right, had to sit through a few introductory econ courses at their local college, and follow it up with a few civics courses. Or we could do it the other way around, I'm flexible. But sometimes I think people are more defined by their areas of ignorance than anything else. Whether they are righties who think every part of the constitution except the 2nd amendment includes the phrase "just kidding" at the end and who feel that "voodoo" is an appropriate area of economic study next to micro and macro, or lefties who skipped econ in college in favor of "intro to bongs" and who feel the same way about the 2nd amendment as the righties do about the rest of them.

 

[Playmaker]

A social liberal and economic conservative.

Limited government, protected civil rights, etc. Very Jeffersonian. It's not complicated.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Perknose
Libertarians have an almost infinite optimism in the wisdom and altruism of their fellow man, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.

Scratch a libertarian and you will find a person whose ideology gleefully embraces the notion that such things as traffic lights are an unneccessary imposition of a dark and arbitrary facistic government power -- a tri-hued symbol of the dead hand of bureaucracy, if you will -- on the self sufficent yeoman spirit of the American individual.

Meanwhile, those of us stuck here on the endlessly messy and unnervingly uncategorizable miasma that is planet Earth, those of us who have lived here long enough to have actually tried to cross a busy intersection with a non-functioning traffic light put these earnest young ideologues in the same remainder bin with all the other angry, insistent ideologues -- communists, neocons, flat-earthers, Reaganites, dittoheads, neo-nazis, creationists -- and gladly if wearily accept a country where our meat is inspected.

Mention Hobbes to a libertarian and they will tell you Calvin was the real star of that comic strip, and mourn its short, brutal existence. Libertarians yearn for a return to a past that never was.

My straw man alert meter just broke.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I guess I am less interested in a word definition as what it is that makes them tick. What about traditional right and left causes them not really to fit, not that I really know what the left and right are. What do libertarians feel? That sort of thing if indeed that makes any sense. What are a libertarian's basic assumptions? How do they see the world...etc.

I took one of those political alignment tests, and it said I am a Liberal Libertarian. I don't know what that is, but let's run with it.

I view govt as a needed evil. There is nothing inherently evil about govt in the abstract, however the present administration shows why I do not trust it. Whoever wields the One Ring of governmental power must be watched closely. I therefore want a government who interferes minimally, however when it does so it needs to represent the interests of the people, and not just the favored.

I like social safety nets, however there are limits. Arguing that one is entitled to a monthly check when there is no need goes no where with me. On the other hand there are those who need a hand. I'll pay taxes to get people on their feet, to build roads, to do what needs to be done. I'll do so for the poor, the ailing, the elderly.

I don't like the idea of governments forcing people to think in the "favored" way. If people are ignorant, then so be it as long as they don't seek to use their free speech to incite violence. What good is free speech if the only speech allowed is what is popular? It has been said that a free country is one where it is safe to hold unpopular views, and that would be ones I disagree with.

It's sort of a golden rule. How would I want to be treated? What do I want out of a society? That is what I would have for others.

Does that make me a liberal libertarian? I have no idea. It's what seems right to me.

How I feel :thumbsup:

 

[Dissipate]

Here is an animated primer on libertarianism.

 

[Worlocked]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: zendari
Basically leftwingers who know economics.

Or rightwingers who've read the constitution

Well, if you call leftwingers' bypassing of the 2nd amendment and other "outdated" parts reading.

What the hell? Are you trying to say Libertarians are FOR gun control?

http://www.lp.org/issues/gun-rights.shtml

Sorry, but no.

To OP: The LP webpage has all you need to know. It doesn't cover EVERYONE who is a libertarian, just as with any party, but you'll get a much better idea of what one is from there than the ignorant drivel that's being spewed in this thread.

EDIT: Or you could always just do some reading on the founding fathers of America. Particularly Thomas Jefferson.

Originally posted by: IdaGno
Naive.

:roll:

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: zendari

Well, if you call leftwingers' bypassing of the 2nd amendment and other "outdated" parts reading.

Hey Zendari:

When are you going to return to this thread???

Now Don, I know you probably don't give a sh1t, but I vaguely recall you trying to give me a hard time for being "petty" and "immature" for repeatedly calling out another poster. Have times changed so much?


Somewhat back on topic, the Libertarian Party does a decent job of explaining its beliefs and tenets.

"Libertarians believe the answer to America's political problems is the same commitment to freedom that earned America its greatness: a free-market economy and the abundance and prosperity it brings; a dedication to civil liberties and personal freedom that marks this country above all others; and a foreign policy of non-intervention, peace, and free trade as prescribed by America's founders."

 

[shortylickens]

Impractical dream?
I suppose the Democrats and Republicans must be doing well in the real world.

(Insert annoying roll eyes icon here.)

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Perknose
Libertarians have an almost infinite optimism in the wisdom and altruism of their fellow man, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.

Scratch a libertarian and you will find a person whose ideology gleefully embraces the notion that such things as traffic lights are an unneccessary imposition of a dark and arbitrary facistic government power -- a tri-hued symbol of the dead hand of bureaucracy, if you will -- on the self sufficent yeoman spirit of the American individual.

Meanwhile, those of us stuck here on the endlessly messy and unnervingly uncategorizable miasma that is planet Earth, those of us who have lived here long enough to have actually tried to cross a busy intersection with a non-functioning traffic light put these earnest young ideologues in the same remainder bin with all the other angry, insistent ideologues -- communists, neocons, flat-earthers, Reaganites, dittoheads, neo-nazis, creationists -- and gladly if wearily accept a country where our meat is inspected.

Mention Hobbes to a libertarian and they will tell you Calvin was the real star of that comic strip, and mourn its short, brutal existence. Libertarians yearn for a return to a past that never was.

You forgot 'solitary, poor, and nasty'. But well said

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Perknose
Libertarians have an almost infinite optimism in the wisdom and altruism of their fellow man, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.

Scratch a libertarian and you will find a person whose ideology gleefully embraces the notion that such things as traffic lights are an unneccessary imposition of a dark and arbitrary facistic government power -- a tri-hued symbol of the dead hand of bureaucracy, if you will -- on the self sufficent yeoman spirit of the American individual.

Meanwhile, those of us stuck here on the endlessly messy and unnervingly uncategorizable miasma that is planet Earth, those of us who have lived here long enough to have actually tried to cross a busy intersection with a non-functioning traffic light put these earnest young ideologues in the same remainder bin with all the other angry, insistent ideologues -- communists, neocons, flat-earthers, Reaganites, dittoheads, neo-nazis, creationists -- and gladly if wearily accept a country where our meat is inspected.

Mention Hobbes to a libertarian and they will tell you Calvin was the real star of that comic strip, and mourn its short, brutal existence. Libertarians yearn for a return to a past that never was.

You forgot 'solitary, poor, and nasty'. But well said

It makes sense that you would call that huge blundering straw man 'well said.'

 

[Worlocked]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
Impractical dream?
I suppose the Democrats and Republicans must be doing well in the real world.

(Insert annoying roll eyes icon here.)

Yeah, really. Alot of the responses here were really pompous, ignorant, and downright frustrating.

 

[Polish3d]

There is quite a bit of ignorance about libertarianism here.

Definitions can vary, but its essentially strict constructionism with an objectivist viewpoint on social policy.

ie, people should be free to do as they wish so long as they do not commit force or theft against their fellow (hu)man.

I am a registered libertarian and have been since I was 18. (23 now)

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: Worlocked

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: zendari
Basically leftwingers who know economics.

Or rightwingers who've read the constitution

Well, if you call leftwingers' bypassing of the 2nd amendment and other "outdated" parts reading.

What the hell? Are you trying to say Libertarians are FOR gun control?

http://www.lp.org/issues/gun-rights.shtml

Sorry, but no.

To OP: The LP webpage has all you need to know. It doesn't cover EVERYONE who is a libertarian, just as with any party, but you'll get a much better idea of what one is from there than the ignorant drivel that's being spewed in this thread.

EDIT: Or you could always just do some reading on the founding fathers of America. Particularly Thomas Jefferson.

Originally posted by: IdaGno
Naive.

:roll:

Yup, I'm surprised that so many of the pundits here are this unfamiliar with libertarianism

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Frackal

Yup, I'm surprised that so many of the pundits here are this unfamiliar with libertarianism

I'm not. The intellectual sloth here is simply amazing.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Perknose
Libertarians have an almost infinite optimism in the wisdom and altruism of their fellow man, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.

Scratch a libertarian and you will find a person whose ideology gleefully embraces the notion that such things as traffic lights are an unneccessary imposition of a dark and arbitrary facistic government power -- a tri-hued symbol of the dead hand of bureaucracy, if you will -- on the self sufficent yeoman spirit of the American individual.

Meanwhile, those of us stuck here on the endlessly messy and unnervingly uncategorizable miasma that is planet Earth, those of us who have lived here long enough to have actually tried to cross a busy intersection with a non-functioning traffic light put these earnest young ideologues in the same remainder bin with all the other angry, insistent ideologues -- communists, neocons, flat-earthers, Reaganites, dittoheads, neo-nazis, creationists -- and gladly if wearily accept a country where our meat is inspected.

Mention Hobbes to a libertarian and they will tell you Calvin was the real star of that comic strip, and mourn its short, brutal existence. Libertarians yearn for a return to a past that never was.

You forgot 'solitary, poor, and nasty'. But well said

It makes sense that you would call that huge blundering straw man 'well said.'

Oh give it a rest - it was clever enough and I doubt more than a quarter of the people who read it 'got it'.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Frackal

Yup, I'm surprised that so many of the pundits here are this unfamiliar with libertarianism

I'm not. The intellectual sloth here is simply amazing.

Why surprised? I was merely interested, in passing, in the subject as a result of a discussion in another thread and thought I'd get others thoughts on this. And now what?, suddenly, because answers vary or conflict on a subject somewhat dear to you but to which the American people, judging by their vote for libertarian candidates, manifest clearly to all that they don't give a rats ass about libertarianism, that means, all of a sudden, that because some are not too well informed on the minutia of minuscule party that everybody is suddenly an unacquainted or ill informed intellectual sloth?

But then again, I am sure that the world's leading authorities on ingrown hair are equally tempted to laugh at the ordinary mortals lack of comprehension.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Here is an animated primer on libertarianism.

I watched the show and read the WIKI article. The focus on private property does not appear to be central to libertarianism as the link suggests.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Frackal

Yup, I'm surprised that so many of the pundits here are this unfamiliar with libertarianism

I'm not. The intellectual sloth here is simply amazing.

Why surprised? I was merely interested, in passing, in the subject as a result of a discussion in another thread and thought I'd get others thoughts on this. And now what?, suddenly, because answers vary or conflict on a subject somewhat dear to you but to which the American people, judging by their vote for libertarian candidates, manifest clearly to all that they don't give a rats ass about libertarianism, that means, all of a sudden, that because some are not too well informed on the minutia of minuscule party that everybody is suddenly an unacquainted or ill informed intellectual sloth?

But then again, I am sure that the world's leading authorities on ingrown hair are equally tempted to laugh at the ordinary mortals lack of comprehension.

The failure of the LP gives about as much insight into americans general attitude towards libertarianism as the failure of the green party does for our attitude towards the environment.

 

[Worlocked]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Frackal

Yup, I'm surprised that so many of the pundits here are this unfamiliar with libertarianism

I'm not. The intellectual sloth here is simply amazing.

Why surprised? I was merely interested, in passing, in the subject as a result of a discussion in another thread and thought I'd get others thoughts on this. And now what?, suddenly, because answers vary or conflict on a subject somewhat dear to you but to which the American people, judging by their vote for libertarian candidates, manifest clearly to all that they don't give a rats ass about libertarianism, that means, all of a sudden, that because some are not too well informed on the minutia of minuscule party that everybody is suddenly an unacquainted or ill informed intellectual sloth?

But then again, I am sure that the world's leading authorities on ingrown hair are equally tempted to laugh at the ordinary mortals lack of comprehension.

1+1=2, if it's popular to think 1+1=3, or people just don't care what 1+1 equals, doesn't make it any less important to make the truth known.

Your average joe American(The voting majority) doesn't care to know about much beyond American Idol, their SUV and how much the gas it guzzles costs, or which celebrity is f***ing whom, I don't think anyone came into this thread thinking they knew much about anything. They don't care about quantum physics, does that make quantum physics any less important? Basic math is much more popular and well known, so f*** it, let's throw out blatantly wrong information about quantum physics... Who cares? Basic math is more popular, therefor quantum physics is invalid and not worthy of having discussion containing correct information. People who care about quantum physics are comparable to people who care about the intricacies of ass hair folicles, right?

And "minuscule party"? This country was founded on Libertarianism. Because other parties became more popular Libertariansim is somehow invalidated? Sure... The only reason the Libertarian party doesn't capture as many votes as the big parties do is because they do not have the money to have their candidates comercials run during American Idol. That, and they get arrested illegally when they try and attend the presidential debates. Thank you, Patriot Act and the Republican Party.

http://badnarik.org/newsfromthetrail.php?p=1346

Your post is asinine, and borderline flame bait.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Frackal

Yup, I'm surprised that so many of the pundits here are this unfamiliar with libertarianism

I'm not. The intellectual sloth here is simply amazing.

Why surprised? I was merely interested, in passing, in the subject as a result of a discussion in another thread and thought I'd get others thoughts on this. And now what?, suddenly, because answers vary or conflict on a subject somewhat dear to you but to which the American people, judging by their vote for libertarian candidates, manifest clearly to all that they don't give a rats ass about libertarianism, that means, all of a sudden, that because some are not too well informed on the minutia of minuscule party that everybody is suddenly an unacquainted or ill informed intellectual sloth?

But then again, I am sure that the world's leading authorities on ingrown hair are equally tempted to laugh at the ordinary mortals lack of comprehension.

The failure of the LP gives about as much insight into americans general attitude towards libertarianism as the failure of the green party does for our attitude towards the environment.

Again, in very general terms, this is true.

However lets not forget that the Democrats and Republicans consistantly undermine them in various ways.

Change laws that raise the bar just a little bit higher then the parties could reach and when they yell foul then the usual reply is you cannot have every Dick and Jane on the voting card.

Take part in debates that are put on by special intrest groups that lock out other candidates from speaking and never appear on neutral ground. When the final debate does occur in front of the nation then simply make sure the process in place to have a party join the debate is changed to not allow others in. This is where raising the bar comes in.

Not to mention arrest party members like say the LP party leader during the last elections.

It's not an act of Republicans or Democrats but an act commited by both in conjunction with one another. Anyone care to mention what body makes up the rules for elections in the country? Anyone care to name each person who sits on that body and what party they belong to.... I thought not.

So yeah they fail but if you call them failures you have better be able to swallow the reasons as to why.

 

[imported_Aelius]

P.S. Last I checked the Libertarian Party in the US was the 3rd largest party in the country. Although last I checked was during the 2000 elections.

 

[Worlocked]

Originally posted by: Aelius
P.S. Last I checked the Libertarian Party in the US was the 3rd largest party in the country. Although last I checked was during the 2000 elections.

They still are.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Worlocked that's a superb link. I forgot about that one. It's been a while. =)

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Frackal

Yup, I'm surprised that so many of the pundits here are this unfamiliar with libertarianism

I'm not. The intellectual sloth here is simply amazing.

Why surprised? I was merely interested, in passing, in the subject as a result of a discussion in another thread and thought I'd get others thoughts on this. And now what?, suddenly, because answers vary or conflict on a subject somewhat dear to you but to which the American people, judging by their vote for libertarian candidates, manifest clearly to all that they don't give a rats ass about libertarianism, that means, all of a sudden, that because some are not too well informed on the minutia of minuscule party that everybody is suddenly an unacquainted or ill informed intellectual sloth?

But then again, I am sure that the world's leading authorities on ingrown hair are equally tempted to laugh at the ordinary mortals lack of comprehension.

That isn't what he is getting at I don't think.

The point he is making is that there is a ton of people here who believe they are god's gift to political science. I won't get into naming them, we all know who they are. They make a ton of posts with a cut and paste from a rather extreme site and then they bruise themselves from slapping each other on the back with catch phrases and cute little pet names they make up for the people they dislike and or disagree with.

But when a simple question is asked about what something is, you don't find those people here to explain what a libertarian is do you? Could it be because their entire political viewpoint is a cut and paste of someone else's? The best you could expect out of them was maybe a cut and paste from wikipedia that goes into great detail explaining something they have never bothered to research for themselves because it isn't a hot topic of rhetoric from their any of the propagandists that thinks for this borg on a daily basis.

They are internet televangelists trying to convert the masses to their e-cause and are no different than the televangelists on the other side of the spectrum which they despise.

But ask yourself an honest question or two. If Bush was a libertarian would the peanuts gallery here know what libertarians are? If libertarians were viewed as evil and nasty people who are generally disapproved of and Bush supported them, took money from them, or consorted with them in any way; would we not have a million libertarian experts pouring out of the woodwork in P&N to educate the masses on who, what, where, and why libertarians are what they are and why Bush is evil for associating with them?



As far as what a libertarian is....

They are for absolute freedom and strict abidement of the constitution. They are for a totally free market. They are largely isolationist foreign policy wise and believe that foreign aid creates a welfare type situations in which other countries are overly dependent on our aid. They think the correct way to end world poverty is to stop taxing our citizens and completely open free trade so that our economy can help others to thrive.

They believe that government should shrink to a dramatic degree. They believe in very low taxes, many believe there should be no taxes at all. They are anti-censorship of any kind. They believe in working towards a cleaner environment, though they have interesting ways of going about this at times which I largely agree with them on.


So realistically, they aren't really right wing or left wing. Some of their views are right wing and some are left wing. The right wing wants to restrict your rights in some ways and the left wants to restrict your rights in other ways. If maximizing personal freedom is your bag then libertarians are for you. I agree with them on 90% of the stuff they say, but I disagree with them on foreign policy which means they are off limits for me.

You can find out more at www.lp.org if you like. They will probably have a link explaining their viewpoints on that site somewhere.

/rant