What is a "backup" of your data?

[Railgun]

If the partition gets corrupted or disappears, RAID won't help. Ask Zachboy how that works. :sneaky:

RAID1/5/6/10 helps with not losing data due to physical drive failures (to a point) since the most recent backup. For instance if you do backups every evening, what if you do a lot of important work during the day and one HDD fails after you are done, but before you can do the backup? RAID1/5/6/10 to the rescue!

Agree, but I'm playing the if part. In all my years of playing with RAID setups, I have never, ever had an issue related to a partition going belly up.

As far as creating the backup itself, if that were the case, the loss would be minimal as if I'm not working directly off that array, the time lost would be minimal as the thing I'm working on wasn't really that big of a deal to begin with.

This is not some enterprise solution to be sure and in that scenario, within my company, we do multiple site redundancy.

 

[KingFatty]

While an external HDD can be used for backing up, the external HDD by and of itself is not a backup.

External HDD can be used for backing up, but it is not a backup? What ... are you saying that it could potentially become a backup if you perhaps move it far enough away from your computer so that they are "separated"?

So it may or may not be a backup depending on the length of your cable connecting the external HDD to the computer?

Are you saying there is no conceivable way that an external HDD itself can be a backup, but only that it can be used for backing up?

 

[exdeath]

What he means is people who only store their data on the external thinking it's a backup, but don't have it anywhere else. If the external dies, you lose your data.

Not sure why this is causing so much confusion, it should be obvious.

Two external drives synchronized with the same data = backup. External drive that has a second copy of important files on your internal drive = backup. Moving all your important files to a single external drive != backup.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Speaking of theft another thing to worry about is someone stealing your original files or backups. Now they have confidential data. Not a bad idea to get a safe for the backups, and store the actual data in a server that is in a locked room.

I've been wanting to setup something like this myself. Though I have an alarm system so odds of someone breaking in is small as they normally avoid houses that have an alarm. And if they do then they have only a few minutes.

 

[corkyg]

Lots of good points in this thread. Step 1 is to develop a backup plan. I have 3 active computers - 1 Win desktop, 1 Win 7 laptop, and 1 XP desktop. They are independent, and each has a separate data drive. All three of those are clones. Then, off line, I have a cloned USB drive that is never connected except to be cloned.

I do have a good ADT security system in place, but nothing is fool proof. I have digital images of every room showing every piece of furniture and art. These are all recorded on two DVDs, both of which are stored in a bank safe deposit box. Those are primarily for insurance support in case of loss due to fire or theft. When you live on the 5th dead end street in a row, it adds to security, and we do have a functioning neighborhood watch system as well.

Zap started a good thread. May be worth a stickie.

 

[mv2devnull]

"Synchronized drives" sounds about the same as RAID1; if you mess the source, the error will propagate to the destination. Ideally, you create backup copies frequently without touching any previous backups.

However, multiple snapshots require more space. There exists data de-duplication techniques, but corruption of a de-duplicated bit has widespread effects.

Managing offline checksums for data allows spotting corrupted copies.

Working with files, one could store ("commit) them to a version control database. The database naturally requires backup too. The benefit of version control is a bit easier tracking of changes.

In all my years of playing with RAID setups, I have never, ever had an issue related to a partition going belly up.

No accidental deletes, overwrites, or other user errors either?

 

[iluvdeal]

Speaking of theft another thing to worry about is someone stealing your original files or backups. Now they have confidential data. Not a bad idea to get a safe for the backups, and store the actual data in a server that is in a locked room.

I've been wanting to setup something like this myself. Though I have an alarm system so odds of someone breaking in is small as they normally avoid houses that have an alarm. And if they do then they have only a few minutes.

You could encrypt the backup drive so if someone ever steals it, they won't be able to read any of the data on it. The downside of encrypting the drive is slower performance though.

 

[exdeath]

"Synchronized drives" sounds about the same as RAID1; if you mess the source, the error will propagate to the destination. Ideally, you create backup copies frequently without touching any previous backups.

I'm talking about using something like Beyond Compare periodically to keep the backups current on both drives.

 

[ahughes]

Any good recommendations for Windows backup software that has versioning (like rsync) in case I need an old version of a file back?

 

[Remobz]

I have nothing to back up my data yet

 

[notposting]

I've been happy with the WHS backup ability (and restore capability ) so far, but I do need to get off my duff and get an offsite backup of some kind going for a few things.

Obviously I don't care about TB's of movie and music rips (that's what renter's insurance is for) but photos, documents, even the pc backups themselves.

Will probably use a combination of cloud storage (things like photos/documents can go to Skydrive) and offsite storage (nightly pc backups, can at least have relatively recent backups saved somewhere).

I might setup a cross-site WHS VPN circle of doom scenario :hmm:

 

[Red Squirrel]

I'm still on lto3 tapes at home.. 400/800 un/comp.. Stack of tapes for historical backups

Arn't those super expensive? I had thought of going with tapes when I originally setup my solution, but it was like 10k for a single tape drive (not a library, just the drive) and each tape was about 60 bucks. So I decided buying hard drives and treating them like tapes was cheaper. I keep track of them in an excel spreadsheet and have a sorta rotation going on.

 

[gmaster456]

Two 1TB drives in Raid 1 with daily backups to an external drive with the external drives being rotated off site once a month.

 

[paperwastage]

Yeah...I sort of learned my lesson with my 3TB "dedicated" movie drive....only one there was....I guess I'll start buying some "external" ones....the more the better....

Hm, speaking of "backup", would it still work if I had more than two drives in one computer that has the exact same copy of everything as the other drives?

not in one computer... a PSU malfunction or mobo short could kill both drives...

remove one and put it in a portable enclosure







for myself, most of my important stuff (code, schoolwork, transcripts) are stored/synced to each of my devices (laptop, desktop, netbook plus their online storage) using JungleDisk (paying $3 for 5GB)... I think that is redundant enough.... I have it set up to not erase deleted files(aka keeping a shadow copy), so accidental deletes won't kill anything either

you could try to redundantly store your data in each of Amazon S3, Google Storage, OpenSTack, but that would cost $0.10/gb/month/site in addition to file accessing fees... good for small important files like tax, bad for videos/photos etc

 

[thelastjuju]

True, you have to consider what happens with a theft, a fire, a flood, or something disastrous like that where no matter how many backups you have, they are all together under ONE roof..

I have three backup drives, internal, that I store in a desk at my office.. one in my car too

 

[Zachboy]

not in one computer... a PSU malfunction or mobo short could kill both drives...

remove one and put it in a portable enclosure

True....not unless you have a "quality" PSU or and a motherboard...but my MB is Intel and PSU sounds "generic", so those could happen. Though I've never had any motherboard "short" on me....so I think it's safe to say, that's it's not going to happen... ()

you could try to redundantly store your data in each of Amazon S3, Google Storage, OpenSTack, but that would cost $0.10/gb/month/site in addition to file accessing fees... good for small important files like tax, bad for videos/photos etc

Hm, sounds like a good plan, but the only thing I fear from doing that is that someone could "overlook" those files/folders somehow....you can't trust anything online on the internet these days...it's all privacy concern when it comes to the internet.

I've never done "RAID" before so I don't know what benefits I get from them....I also heard they're hard to do as well, so I don't bother.

...hm, now that theft is related to this, I think I might invest in one of them safes.....them indestructible ones! Like the ones I see in movies where people try to steal the "safe" of a bank....that would be cool to have at home!

Encrypting TBs of data will take forever...but will improve security status though.

Way back in the early Kazaa days, a friend of mine got his computer infected with something that turned all his MP3 files into 1k sizes. Yeah, good luck with having all your extra copies on the same computer.

Ooh, yes...that's a big one to be concern about....however, seeing how my HTPC isn't connected to any internet resource whatsoever, I doubt I'll get something nasty on it... nor is my dedicated storage computer either.....

Cave painting, they will even outlast you.

Hahaha!:biggrin:

 

[Coup27]

Having an off-site backup is the ideal solution but as a domestic user it's not really practical. I don't own my own house right now but when I do, I'll probably get an IoSafe and stick it in the attic. Hopfully by then they will have a NAS based version. At least you have some degree of protection from fire, flood and theft.

 

[Zachboy]

Having an off-site backup is the ideal solution but as a domestic user it's not really practical. I don't own my own house right now but when I do, I'll probably get an IoSafe and stick it in the attic. Hopfully by then they will have a NAS based version. At least you have some degree of protection from fire, flood and theft.

Hm, good luck paying over, possibly, 10 gran for one of them....

They may be water and fire proof(for a certain period of time, nothing stays "proof" forever...(at least nothing that I know of)) but what happens when the house collapses? Iosafe = destroyed.

​

 

[corkyg]

Hm, good luck paying over, possibly, 10 gran for one of them....

An interesting thought. Current Newegg price for 1TB Iosafe Solo Pro is $330 (USD) - people pay that much for a fragile SSD.

Definitely worth considering in a backup plan.

 

[paperwastage]

Hm, sounds like a good plan, but the only thing I fear from doing that is that someone could "overlook" those files/folders somehow....you can't trust anything online on the internet these days...it's all privacy concern when it comes to the internet.

:

the s3ql I linked to has encryption,like truecrypt.... or you could use truecrypt on top of s3ql

 

[exdeath]

If your house burns down I think you have more problems to deal with than ripping movies and music again that are readily available all over the world.

 

[Zachboy]

the s3ql I linked to has encryption,like truecrypt.... or you could use truecrypt on top of s3ql

Yes, but but what happens when the internet goes? All data tat was stored there are gone forever, unless someone somehow *boot* the internet back on. I'm not talking about your router going down or your ISP's have trouble with internet; I am talking globally, when the internet does go - due to (possibly) wars like a World War 3....

The only thing that you got left, provided that the places of where you secured you data is and if you did another backup through this method, is not destroyed, is what you got left in the end. Doesn't sound very re-assuring knowing that you might die in the war or something and want to look back at old memories you had, before you depart from this world; however, you can't as some of them were on the internet.....

So it's not a good idea to do backup all or the most precious items on the internet alone.

If your house burns down I think you have more problems to deal with than ripping movies and music again that are readily available all over the world.

Yes, like saving your butt and other people's butts from death of heat or and smoke....unless you're the kind of the person where it's every man/woman for himself/herself.....Though Iosafe would help in this situation with their "fire proof" HDDs....but of course they're not crush proof so they might get crushed when the house collapses or that might make an opening where places of the HDD aren't fire proof lighting that on fire....

 

[Pandamonium]

Shrug. My RAID1 NAS is sufficient backup for me. Especially since I upgraded to 2TB drives and haven't repurposed the 1TB drives... yet.

There are very few things that are mission critical to most home users, but there are a lot of things that are "important enough" to justify some form of backup.

Memories/photos/tax documents are what I qualify as "important enough"
Music can always be re-ripped or redownloaded.

If my apartment is robbed and my NAS is stolen, I'd be pretty pissed off but I could eventually recover the things I care about. If my apartment is burned down, I probably wouldn't be able to recover everything. But if my apartment burns down, my data isn't exactly high on my list of priorities. I'll buy into off-site backup when the cost-benefit ratio is worthwhile. And everyone's cost-benefit curves is going to be a little different, so it's a bit shortsighted to declare that everyone should have on-site live, on-site offline, and off-site backup.

 

[Pandamonium]

FWIW, for as cavalier as I am about backup now, I'll probably hunker down and do it right in the next 5 years or so. The ultimate plan is to have a 2 or 3 NAS-to-NAS nightly RSync. With Amazon S3 if the price is right. But otherwise, a local NAS, parent's NAS, in-law's NAS. All will backup to each other nightly. The units would be in different geographical areas. And the filesystem would be ZFS or BTRFS.

So bit rot protection via the filesystem, local hardware failure protection with the local NAS, local theft/fire/vandalism/act of god protection with the remote NAS units. And with the NASes in completely different geographical areas, disaster protection as well.

While overkill, it would be nice to have access to everything regardless of who I am visiting. And the peace of mind doesn't hurt either.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Zap started a good thread. May be worth a stickie.

+1.