What if no wmd are found?

maverik

Junior Member
Apr 14, 2003
8
0
0
This was in reuters.

Empty-Handed U.S. Focuses on Iraqi Arms Scientists
Mon April 21, 2003 04:04 PM ET
By Carol Giacomo, Diplomatic Correspondent
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Having failed to find Saddam Hussein's vaunted arsenal of nuclear, chemical and biological arms, the United States is now focusing more on the scientists who hold Iraq's weapons secrets in their heads.

Some U.S. officials have even begun to suggest that finding scientists who will testify to Saddam's arms ambitions could be enough to fulfill America's justification for the Iraq war -- even if the weapons themselves are never located.



So my question is, what if no wmd are ever found, and it appears that there never were any? Will the US allow such a finding? Will "evidence" be manufactured?
 

orion7144

Diamond Member
Oct 8, 2002
4,425
0
0
I don't think it will be manufactured. I personally think there is enough evidence already. WMD's is not the only reason we went over there. The huge impact that this change seems to be having on the hole middle east is more than enough to hopefully quite the critics. I mean Iran and other agressive contries want to start having Diplomatic relations with us again.

Originally posted by: maverik
This was in reuters.

Empty-Handed U.S. Focuses on Iraqi Arms Scientists
Mon April 21, 2003 04:04 PM ET
By Carol Giacomo, Diplomatic Correspondent
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Having failed to find Saddam Hussein's vaunted arsenal of nuclear, chemical and biological arms, the United States is now focusing more on the scientists who hold Iraq's weapons secrets in their heads.

Some U.S. officials have even begun to suggest that finding scientists who will testify to Saddam's arms ambitions could be enough to fulfill America's justification for the Iraq war -- even if the weapons themselves are never located.



So my question is, what if no wmd are ever found, and it appears that there never were any? Will the US allow such a finding? Will "evidence" be manufactured?

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Why manufacture it, too risky with all those honest salt of the earth troops on the ground there, one of them might say something. But alas, There is already rumours Saddam destroyed the WMD's days before the invasion to hide it all.

Lemme brief you on what goes on in washington behind closed doors. You know like the Raiders or any football team has a motto hanging over thier locker room exit with some inspirational phase like "Just win, baby" or "Be the hammer" etc.

In washington it's "admit to nothing, deny everything, and counter-accuse" We are currently in the counter-accuse phase when we are accused of misleading the public for going into iraq for WMD we say "well he was hinding them but destroyed them so we could'nt prove it to make us look bad". Makes sense to me no?
 

joohang

Lifer
Oct 22, 2000
12,340
1
0
Out of curiosity: How are WMDs destroyed? Are they disassembled and the parts stored somewhere hidden? Or are they normally sealed so that they don't contaminate? Or are they dumped in some facility in the middle of nowhere and abandoned?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Chem and bio are incinerted at very high temperatures to break all the molecular bonds making them harmless.

Nukes, lol, find a very good ziplock baggie and bury it really really deep in the earth. Because it will still be found a million years from now.
 

maverik

Junior Member
Apr 14, 2003
8
0
0
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Chem and bio are incinerted at very high temperatures to break all the molecular bonds making them harmless.

Nukes, lol, find a very good ziplock baggie and bury it really really deep in the earth. Because it will still be found a million years from now.

hey, doesnt the US have satellites that can detect "hot" substances. why is it so hard to track radio-active stuff? but then again, really deep underground prob hides the signature

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I don't know how thats possible from the sky. I would be curious to know how the ratioactive particles could be detected from such a distance since they need to feed into the instument to do so. My understanding is we look for signatures like large amount of hot water which a byproduct of a nuclear reactor which we can see from reconsisance. (sp. french word which I have no desire to spell correctly:p) As far as detection on the ground it fairly easy.
 

maverik

Junior Member
Apr 14, 2003
8
0
0
Originally posted by: orion7144
I don't think it will be manufactured. I personally think there is enough evidence already. WMD's is not the only reason we went over there. The huge impact that this change seems to be having on the hole middle east is more than enough to hopefully quite the critics. I mean Iran and other agressive contries want to start having Diplomatic relations with us again.

I'd have to agree that this will have some positive effects, putting some fear into other countries like iran and n.korea, but at the same time, the policy of the US turning a blind eye to its allies' faults is getting irksome. take pakistan for example, there is a country that has nukes, has terrorist camps which even the US govt acknowledges, sponsors terrorism, but the govt just wrote off $1 billion in debt, and decided to allow the sale of f-16s which they had stopped following the tests a few years back. Oh, and do i need to say anything about israel's nuclear program? these double standards detract from the positive effects of this war.

so to get to the point again, if the wmd justification is out of the window, then what? regime change? why hasn't the US changed other oppresive regimes? the lack of the wmd justification causes the criticism about the war for oil etc (not saying thats not true). so finding wmd is still the best way for the US to put a positive face on this war, and stiffle any criticism.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: maverik
Originally posted by: orion7144
I don't think it will be manufactured. I personally think there is enough evidence already. WMD's is not the only reason we went over there. The huge impact that this change seems to be having on the hole middle east is more than enough to hopefully quite the critics. I mean Iran and other agressive contries want to start having Diplomatic relations with us again.

I'd have to agree that this will have some positive effects, putting some fear into other countries like iran and n.korea, but at the same time, the policy of the US turning a blind eye to its allies' faults is getting irksome. take pakistan for example, there is a country that has nukes, has terrorist camps which even the US govt acknowledges, sponsors terrorism, but the govt just wrote off $1 billion in debt, and decided to allow the sale of f-16s which they had stopped following the tests a few years back. Oh, and do i need to say anything about israel's nuclear program? these double standards detract from the positive effects of this war.

so to get to the point again, if the wmd justification is out of the window, then what? regime change? why hasn't the US changed other oppresive regimes? the lack of the wmd justification causes the criticism about the war for oil etc (not saying thats not true). so finding wmd is still the best way for the US to put a positive face on this war, and stiffle any criticism.

Maverik that was the whole point of this invasion. We cannot allow saddam a seat to the bargaining table he is too ruthless and controls too many assests and having nukes for him would facilitate such an event. Way too dangerous. Why do you think we are seeing a diplomatic soltion with korea? It too dangerous not knowing if KIM has nukes or not right now. We do what we can to control the tryrants but once they have the bomb or can make war too unpleasant we sit down an negotiate with them. NO american is really wanting to sit down with Saddam given his history.


As far as Israel:

The United States, under it's more anti-semtic leadership in the 50's and 60's would not gauntee security for Israel. They really had no choice but to seek the deterance nukes provide given thier geopolitical vulnerablity in the regoin.

What do nukes do? Mainly it's a deterant weapon founded on the "just war thoery" which balances one action against another.

1. Just punishment may not exceed the violation of an aggressor. A nuke is the ultimate punshment device therefore you possess the equal means.

2. A cost-benefit analysis based on a comparison of unlike acts or events. Like the dropping the bomb on Japan to save lives or resorting to nukes as to not have to surrender to an opessive outside government such as Egypt. Is it worth it to Egypts civilain population to have a nuked dropped in Ciaro if Israel in on the brink of desruction?

The underlying policy is that the possibility of annihilation is so terrifying that neither country dares to attack each other.

 

maverik

Junior Member
Apr 14, 2003
8
0
0
still doesn't explain the double standards when dealing with pakistan as opposed to n.korea. why is the US govt further arming pakistan, a country that has launched 4 wars of agression, and its current "president" came to power in a military coup. and all the US does is once a month tell the pakistani govt that they should stop sponsoring terrorism, while continuing to sell them weapons.

that is not called negotiating!

on the other hand you have n.korea, who have not to my knowledge been proved to have terrorist links, though they do sell arms to other nations, like PAKISTAN. the pakistani missile program is based on second hand missiles acquired from china and n.korea.

n.korea hasn't started any wars since teh korean war right? oh wait, my bad, the korean war never ended. its still in ceasefire! and except for the occasional war games played out near the border, they have never commited an act of agression. oh, and one more example of what not to do diplomatically: n. korea was a country that was making overtures of peace last year, with talks resuming between the south and the north, and things seemed to be going the right way, and then they are labelled part of the "axis of evil". a sovereign nation whom you believe might possess nuclear weapons! go ahead, nice way to make friends. it was only after they were so labelled, did they go ahead and anounce that they were restarting that nuclear reactor.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I though this was pretty clear. We needed a place to invade afghanistan from and pakistan (at least thier leadership) became our bitch and helped us and now are our "friends." Similarly SA is our "friend" while 15/19 highjackers and Osama himself hailed from there, but they keep the oil flowing at a reasonable price and make up for shortfalls when needed. It's all about money and politcal perception at home and always will be. With pakistan or any other nuclear nation we have no choice but either have a big ole cold war again which no one likes and is bad for business or look the other way at thier inside activities. Hell look at Chinas abuses and they are still commies, but we get lots of goodies from them in shippping containers each month, even the american public does'nt care since they buy it up at the stores.

Don't kid youself into thinking this is about liberating anyone, yes yes the masses eat that sh1t up, it's an added bonus which appeals to our historical independence psyche so it's hyped to the max, ultilmatly we do what's in our best business intrest and Saddam having nukes while controlling such a large nessesary resource oil and him being able to annex close by oil fields in saudi and kuwait is not going to happen on our watch. Remember gas prices in the $7 range in the 70's and you only got 10 gallons a week.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,895
548
126
What if no wmd are found?
If no WMD "smoking gun" is eventually found, that is an assurance of which bumbling Blix and his keystone cop inspectors could have never provided. We wanted to "know" because Hussein was not able to manipulate, mislead, and obstruct the inspections process, not because we were given Blix's 'best guesstimate'.
still doesn't explain the double standards when dealing with pakistan as opposed to n.korea. why is the US govt further arming pakistan, a country that has launched 4 wars of agression, and its current "president" came to power in a military coup. and all the US does is once a month tell the pakistani govt that they should stop sponsoring terrorism, while continuing to sell them weapons.
If you could provide this evidence that Pakistan continues to sponsor terrorism, or even evidence the US is "arming" Pakistan in a way which is used to support either terrorism or one of these 'wars of aggression', it would really help.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Iraq arms hunt erodes U.S. assurance MSNBC
CAMP DOHA, Kuwait, April 22 ? With little to show after 30 days, the Bush administration is losing confidence in its prewar belief that it had strong clues pointing to the whereabouts of weapons of mass destruction concealed in Iraq, according to planners and participants in the hunt.

AFTER TESTING SOME ? though by no means all ? of their best leads, analysts here and in Washington are increasingly doubtful that that they will find what they are looking for in the places described on a five-tiered target list drawn up before fighting began. Their strategy is shifting from the rapid ?exploitation? of known suspect sites to a vast survey that will rely on unexpected discoveries and leads.
Late last week, the U.S. Central Command began moving urgently to expand security around a wider range of facilities in an effort to preserve evidence that defense officials fear is melting away. That imperative grew from intelligence suggesting that Iraqi insiders have stolen files, electronic data and equipment from nonconventional arms programs under the cover of recent looting. Analysts said they believe that former Iraqi officials hope to conceal their culpability, barter for status with the U.S. military government or sell the technology for private gain.
If such weapons or the means of making them have indeed been removed from the centralized control of former Iraqi officials, high-ranking U.S. officials acknowledged, then the war may prove to aggravate the proliferation threat that President Bush said he fought to forestall.

?It?s a danger,? Douglas J. Feith, the undersecretary of defense for policy, said in a telephone interview. There are signs, he said, ?that some of the looting is actually strategic.? Former Baath Party and Iraqi government officials appear to be ?doing at least some of the looting? of government facilities, he said, ?including those that might have records or materials? relating to weapons of mass destruction.?
Bush launched and justified the war with a flat declaration of knowledge ?that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.? Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, who took the lead public role in defending that proposition, said, among other particulars, that ?our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent.?

[/b]EVENTUALLY, MAYBE [/b]

MUCH MORE . . .

Interesting in it's entirety.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
A scientist who claims to have worked in Iraq's chemical weapons program for more than a decade has told an American military team that Iraq destroyed chemical weapons and biological warfare equipment only days before the war began, members of the team said.

They said the scientist led Americans to a supply of material that proved to be the building blocks of illegal weapons, which he claimed to have buried as evidence of Iraq's illicit weapons programs.

The scientist also told American weapons experts that Iraq had secretly sent unconventional weapons and technology to Syria, starting in the mid-1990's, and that more recently Iraq was cooperating with Al Qaeda, the military officials said.



I believe they found something here but have yet to release full details pending testing.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Alistar7
A scientist who claims to have worked in Iraq's chemical weapons program for more than a decade has told an American military team that Iraq destroyed chemical weapons and biological warfare equipment only days before the war began, members of the team said.

They said the scientist led Americans to a supply of material that proved to be the building blocks of illegal weapons, which he claimed to have buried as evidence of Iraq's illicit weapons programs.

The scientist also told American weapons experts that Iraq had secretly sent unconventional weapons and technology to Syria, starting in the mid-1990's, and that more recently Iraq was cooperating with Al Qaeda, the military officials said.



I believe they found something here but have yet to release full details pending testing.
Maybe Not. ;)


From the MSNBC article I linked in the post above yours:
But arms hunters now pin their best hopes on what they call ?ad hoc sites,? to be discovered by happenstance or with help of Iraqis who volunteer information or divulge it under interrogation.
One such example came over the weekend, officials here said, when investigators interviewed an Iraqi scientist south of Baghdad. They said the scientist told them he took part in chemical weapons development and that Iraq had destroyed some weapons only days before the war began. He led them to samples of chemicals that the U.S. search team described as ingredients for lethal agents. But military officials would not identify the scientist, the lethal agents or the ingredients that were found. They did not permit a New York Times reporter, who was accompanying the search team and was the first to report the discovery, to interview the scientist.
Without further details of the find, experts said, its significance cannot be assessed. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld was careful yesterday to draw no conclusion about it, saying he had ?nothing to add? to the field report and that investigators have an ?obligation of analyzing things and doing it in an orderly, disciplined way.? Experts said nearly any ingredient for a chemical weapon can also be used for civilian purposes.


And we may never know :
Senior U.S. officials with responsibility over postwar Iraq were highly critical of the delay in securing those facilities. One official interviewed in Kuwait described it as ?the barn-door phenomenon.? He said retired Lt. Gen. Jay M. Garner, the occupation governor of Iraq, sought special protection for 10 Iraqi ministries, identifying them as potential repositories of weapons data, but that only the Oil Ministry remained intact after U.S. ground forces took possession of Baghdad. Combat commanders, the official said, gave ?insufficient priority to getting into these places,? and ?there wasn?t enough force to accomplish that initial sequestering of buildings and records.?
:Q
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
It is pretty obvious that the Iraqi government offices weren't guarded because if there are no WMD discovered, Bush can now say that the records were looted, so they can't be found. Somehow though, they remembered to guard the Oil Ministry. Any guess how from how high up those orders came? And if protecting WMD info was really important, don't you think that the orders to guard that would have come simultaenously from the same source?
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Lets be realistic and honest.
If no WMD are found, it means that Iraq actually had complied with the requirement to disarm, even if it came late, technically they had disarmed.
Disposing of the 'Residuals' by burial doesn't mean that they HID it, it may be their mechanism of disposal, as we use the same method here.

What it would actually mean if the WMD are not found is that our Government has become the biggest group of liars since the Johnson Administration and the Nixon Administration - COMBINED ! Much worse than anything that Clintons been accused of.
They would have deliberately fabricated false evidence and forged documentation in order to force their mandate on the world, as well as their citizens.
If they did that, they should be removed from office as soon as possible, to prevent further falsifications and miscarriage of justice.
Our Constitution mandates it ! - Or doesn't our Constitution count anymore ?


This is from Robert Scheer - L.A. Times:


<DIV class=content>Now that the war has been won, is it permissible to suggest that our emperor has no clothes? I'm not referring to his abysmal stewardship of the economy but rather the fig-leaf war he donned to cover up his glaring domestic failures.
President Bush went to war with Hitler's Germany and found another Afghanistan instead. After comparing the threat of Hussein to that of the F&uuml;hrer, it was odd to find upon our arrival a tottering regime squatting on a demoralized Third World populace.
Now the pressure is on for Bush to find or plant those alleged weapons of mass destruction fast or stand exposed as a bullying fraud.
Of course, our vaunted intelligence forces knew well from our overhead flights and the reports of U.N. inspectors freely surveying the country that Iraq had been reduced by two decades of wars, sanctions and arms inspections to a paper tiger, but that didn't keep the current administration from depicting Baghdad as a seat of evil so powerful it might soon block the very sun from shining.
And while Emperor Bush piled on the fire-and-brimstone rhetoric, his bespectacled vizier for defense presented a mad-hatter laundry list of Iraq's alleged weapons collection, as long and specific as it was phony and circumstantial.
Secretary of State Colin Powell's now infamous speech to the U.N. Security Council employed "intelligence" cribbed from a graduate student's thesis, documents later acknowledged as fakes, and a defector's affirmation of the existence of chemical weapons while excluding his admission that they had subsequently been destroyed.
Having taken over the country, we now know with a great deal of certainty that if chemical or biological weapons were extant there, they were not deployed within the Iraqi military in a manner that threatened the U.S. or anyone else.
Likewise, Bush's fear-mongering about Iraq's alleged nuclear weapons program has proven baseless. There was no reason to hurriedly yank the U.N. inspectors out of Iraq.
Even Bush's only real ally outside of Washington, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, is worried that the fearsome weapons will not turn up ? or that a skeptical world will believe they were planted as an afterthought. "Some sort of objective verification" of weapons finds would be a "good idea," he said last week.
However, the refusal of the U.S. to permit the return of U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix and his team to continue their work is damning evidence of our fear that the weapons simply do not exist, at least in any usable quantity or form. It also raises the suspicion that Iraqi scientists now held incommunicado in U.S. captivity will be squeezed until they tell us what we want to hear. Whatever happened to the prewar demand that those same scientists be given the freedom to tell their story in a non-intimidating environment?
Bush may fear the truth because the still-AWOL weapons are a potential tar baby for this administration. Undoubtedly the U.S. will find mixed-used chemical precursors for weapons, as was claimed only this week, but that is a far cry from being an "imminent threat."
As Joseph Cirincione, a top weapons expert at the Carnegie Endowment, put it, the purported existence of those weapons "was the core reason for going to war with Iraq and the reason we had to go now If we don't find fairly large stockpiles of these weapons, in quantities large enough to pose a strategic threat to the United States, the president's credibility will be seriously undermined and the legitimacy of the war repudiated."
That concern is largely absent in the U.S. media, where "liberation" is now a code word that smoothes over any irritating questions one may ask when a Christian superpower invades the heart of the Muslim world. Its partner phrase, "the building of democracy," is also all the rage, as if real democracy was something you could create with Legos or SimCity software.
At this point, though, we can only hope it will all turn out for the best, and that a retired U.S. general will figure out how to use the country's natural resources to end poverty, build excellent schools and provide crime-free streets and an electoral system where positions of power don't go to the highest bidder. Then he can come back and apply this genius at home, where we've got plenty of unwelcome violence, poverty and on-the-take politicians.
However, in the unlikely case this fantasy comes true, albeit at an untold price in money, lives and human suffering, it should be remembered that this was not the justification for war given to the American people.
And, in a more sober mood, one must still ask the embarrassing yet essential question: Did our president knowingly deceive us in his rush to war?
If he did, and we are truly concerned about our own democracy, we would have to acknowledge that such an egregious abuse of power rises to the status of an impeachable offense.
</DIV>
 

LilBlinbBlahIce

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2001
1,837
0
0
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Lets be realistic and honest.
If no WMD are found, it means that Iraq actually had complied with the requirement to disarm, even if it came late, technically they had disarmed.
Disposing of the 'Residuals' by burial doesn't mean that they HID it, it may be their mechanism of disposal, as we use the same method here.

What it would actually mean if the WMD are not found is that our Government has become the biggest group of liars since the Johnson Administration and the Nixon Administration - COMBINED ! Much worse than anything that Clintons been accused of.
They would have deliberately fabricated false evidence and forged documentation in order to force their mandate on the world, as well as their citizens.
If they did that, they should be removed from office as soon as possible, to prevent further falsifications and miscarriage of justice.
Our Constitution mandates it ! - Or doesn't our Constitution count anymore ?


This is from Robert Scheer - L.A. Times:


<DIV class=content>Now that the war has been won, is it permissible to suggest that our emperor has no clothes? I'm not referring to his abysmal stewardship of the economy but rather the fig-leaf war he donned to cover up his glaring domestic failures.
President Bush went to war with Hitler's Germany and found another Afghanistan instead. After comparing the threat of Hussein to that of the F&uuml;hrer, it was odd to find upon our arrival a tottering regime squatting on a demoralized Third World populace.
Now the pressure is on for Bush to find or plant those alleged weapons of mass destruction fast or stand exposed as a bullying fraud.
Of course, our vaunted intelligence forces knew well from our overhead flights and the reports of U.N. inspectors freely surveying the country that Iraq had been reduced by two decades of wars, sanctions and arms inspections to a paper tiger, but that didn't keep the current administration from depicting Baghdad as a seat of evil so powerful it might soon block the very sun from shining.
And while Emperor Bush piled on the fire-and-brimstone rhetoric, his bespectacled vizier for defense presented a mad-hatter laundry list of Iraq's alleged weapons collection, as long and specific as it was phony and circumstantial.
Secretary of State Colin Powell's now infamous speech to the U.N. Security Council employed "intelligence" cribbed from a graduate student's thesis, documents later acknowledged as fakes, and a defector's affirmation of the existence of chemical weapons while excluding his admission that they had subsequently been destroyed.
Having taken over the country, we now know with a great deal of certainty that if chemical or biological weapons were extant there, they were not deployed within the Iraqi military in a manner that threatened the U.S. or anyone else.
Likewise, Bush's fear-mongering about Iraq's alleged nuclear weapons program has proven baseless. There was no reason to hurriedly yank the U.N. inspectors out of Iraq.
Even Bush's only real ally outside of Washington, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, is worried that the fearsome weapons will not turn up ? or that a skeptical world will believe they were planted as an afterthought. "Some sort of objective verification" of weapons finds would be a "good idea," he said last week.
However, the refusal of the U.S. to permit the return of U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix and his team to continue their work is damning evidence of our fear that the weapons simply do not exist, at least in any usable quantity or form. It also raises the suspicion that Iraqi scientists now held incommunicado in U.S. captivity will be squeezed until they tell us what we want to hear. Whatever happened to the prewar demand that those same scientists be given the freedom to tell their story in a non-intimidating environment?
Bush may fear the truth because the still-AWOL weapons are a potential tar baby for this administration. Undoubtedly the U.S. will find mixed-used chemical precursors for weapons, as was claimed only this week, but that is a far cry from being an "imminent threat."
As Joseph Cirincione, a top weapons expert at the Carnegie Endowment, put it, the purported existence of those weapons "was the core reason for going to war with Iraq and the reason we had to go now If we don't find fairly large stockpiles of these weapons, in quantities large enough to pose a strategic threat to the United States, the president's credibility will be seriously undermined and the legitimacy of the war repudiated."
That concern is largely absent in the U.S. media, where "liberation" is now a code word that smoothes over any irritating questions one may ask when a Christian superpower invades the heart of the Muslim world. Its partner phrase, "the building of democracy," is also all the rage, as if real democracy was something you could create with Legos or SimCity software.
At this point, though, we can only hope it will all turn out for the best, and that a retired U.S. general will figure out how to use the country's natural resources to end poverty, build excellent schools and provide crime-free streets and an electoral system where positions of power don't go to the highest bidder. Then he can come back and apply this genius at home, where we've got plenty of unwelcome violence, poverty and on-the-take politicians.
However, in the unlikely case this fantasy comes true, albeit at an untold price in money, lives and human suffering, it should be remembered that this was not the justification for war given to the American people.
And, in a more sober mood, one must still ask the embarrassing yet essential question: Did our president knowingly deceive us in his rush to war?
If he did, and we are truly concerned about our own democracy, we would have to acknowledge that such an egregious abuse of power rises to the status of an impeachable offense.
</DIV>


Amen to that.
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Originally posted by: orion7144
I don't think it will be manufactured. I personally think there is enough evidence already. WMD's is not the only reason we went over there. The huge impact that this change seems to be having on the hole middle east is more than enough to hopefully quite the critics. I mean Iran and other agressive contries want to start having Diplomatic relations with us again.

Slide one way..."we must attack because they are in violation of 1441"...slide the other way..."we liberated the Iraqi people and that's all that counts, who cares if they had WMD"...
 

LilBlinbBlahIce

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2001
1,837
0
0
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: FrontlineWarrior
what's the world gonna do? declare war on us? lol.

What a great attitude. And you wonder why the rest of the world hates us...

Exactly, but people with that attitude feel that the US does not need the rest of the world, that it is a self sufficient country that can shut everyone out and survive on its own. Please, without the cheap labor, cheap materials etc. that we get from other countries, we would be on our knees. And I don't know about you, but when I travel, I don't like being automatically stereotyped as the "ugly American", and Bush has done everything in his power to get practically everyone in the world to hate us. On the flip side, it upsets me that people from other countries do not differentiate between Americans and the $hitty American Gov. Of course I'm sure non of this matters to people like FrontlineWarrior who, from his comments, sounds like he's never left the town he was born in.
 

43st

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
3,197
0
0
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Lets be realistic and honest.
If no WMD are found, it means that Iraq actually had complied with the requirement to disarm, even if it came late, technically they had disarmed.
Disposing of the 'Residuals' by burial doesn't mean that they HID it, it may be their mechanism of disposal, as we use the same method here.

What it would actually mean if the WMD are not found is that our Government has become the biggest group of liars since the Johnson Administration and the Nixon Administration - COMBINED ! Much worse than anything that Clintons been accused of.
They would have deliberately fabricated false evidence and forged documentation in order to force their mandate on the world, as well as their citizens.
If they did that, they should be removed from office as soon as possible, to prevent further falsifications and miscarriage of justice.
Our Constitution mandates it ! - Or doesn't our Constitution count anymore ?


This is from Robert Scheer - L.A. Times:


<DIV class=content>Now that the war has been won, is it permissible to suggest that our emperor has no clothes? I'm not referring to his abysmal stewardship of the economy but rather the fig-leaf war he donned to cover up his glaring domestic failures.
President Bush went to war with Hitler's Germany and found another Afghanistan instead. After comparing the threat of Hussein to that of the F&uuml;hrer, it was odd to find upon our arrival a tottering regime squatting on a demoralized Third World populace.
Now the pressure is on for Bush to find or plant those alleged weapons of mass destruction fast or stand exposed as a bullying fraud.
Of course, our vaunted intelligence forces knew well from our overhead flights and the reports of U.N. inspectors freely surveying the country that Iraq had been reduced by two decades of wars, sanctions and arms inspections to a paper tiger, but that didn't keep the current administration from depicting Baghdad as a seat of evil so powerful it might soon block the very sun from shining.
And while Emperor Bush piled on the fire-and-brimstone rhetoric, his bespectacled vizier for defense presented a mad-hatter laundry list of Iraq's alleged weapons collection, as long and specific as it was phony and circumstantial.
Secretary of State Colin Powell's now infamous speech to the U.N. Security Council employed "intelligence" cribbed from a graduate student's thesis, documents later acknowledged as fakes, and a defector's affirmation of the existence of chemical weapons while excluding his admission that they had subsequently been destroyed.
Having taken over the country, we now know with a great deal of certainty that if chemical or biological weapons were extant there, they were not deployed within the Iraqi military in a manner that threatened the U.S. or anyone else.
Likewise, Bush's fear-mongering about Iraq's alleged nuclear weapons program has proven baseless. There was no reason to hurriedly yank the U.N. inspectors out of Iraq.
Even Bush's only real ally outside of Washington, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, is worried that the fearsome weapons will not turn up ? or that a skeptical world will believe they were planted as an afterthought. "Some sort of objective verification" of weapons finds would be a "good idea," he said last week.
However, the refusal of the U.S. to permit the return of U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix and his team to continue their work is damning evidence of our fear that the weapons simply do not exist, at least in any usable quantity or form. It also raises the suspicion that Iraqi scientists now held incommunicado in U.S. captivity will be squeezed until they tell us what we want to hear. Whatever happened to the prewar demand that those same scientists be given the freedom to tell their story in a non-intimidating environment?
Bush may fear the truth because the still-AWOL weapons are a potential tar baby for this administration. Undoubtedly the U.S. will find mixed-used chemical precursors for weapons, as was claimed only this week, but that is a far cry from being an "imminent threat."
As Joseph Cirincione, a top weapons expert at the Carnegie Endowment, put it, the purported existence of those weapons "was the core reason for going to war with Iraq and the reason we had to go now If we don't find fairly large stockpiles of these weapons, in quantities large enough to pose a strategic threat to the United States, the president's credibility will be seriously undermined and the legitimacy of the war repudiated."
That concern is largely absent in the U.S. media, where "liberation" is now a code word that smoothes over any irritating questions one may ask when a Christian superpower invades the heart of the Muslim world. Its partner phrase, "the building of democracy," is also all the rage, as if real democracy was something you could create with Legos or SimCity software.
At this point, though, we can only hope it will all turn out for the best, and that a retired U.S. general will figure out how to use the country's natural resources to end poverty, build excellent schools and provide crime-free streets and an electoral system where positions of power don't go to the highest bidder. Then he can come back and apply this genius at home, where we've got plenty of unwelcome violence, poverty and on-the-take politicians.
However, in the unlikely case this fantasy comes true, albeit at an untold price in money, lives and human suffering, it should be remembered that this was not the justification for war given to the American people.
And, in a more sober mood, one must still ask the embarrassing yet essential question: Did our president knowingly deceive us in his rush to war?
If he did, and we are truly concerned about our own democracy, we would have to acknowledge that such an egregious abuse of power rises to the status of an impeachable offense.
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I'll second that. It would certainly make a good case for a federal death penality. :brokenheart:
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
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Robert Scheer may have the tag of a 'Liberal' by the Extreme Righr and their Neo-Conservitives, but . . .
He does his homework, understands the facts, and presents them truthfully.
He doesn't just make up crap like the Conservative Right does for sensationalism.

His credentials are much better than those of who mock his writing, are your credentials as good as his ?
Or is this more of the mindless spew from the Blind Faithful.

P.S. 'French Fries' are now 'Freedom Fries'
and 'Texas Toast' are now 'Moron Muffins'.