What if Jared Loughner were a Muslim? -CNN editorial

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think that was the point Juan Williams was trying to make - that the effect happened to him, even while he rationally did not agree with it. How he'd feel fearful, even while his rational opinions told him it was wrong. It's the same point I was going to make when I considered the thread on 'what if he had been an illegal immigrant' - hopefully some people would learn from how much more strongly they'd react against a group.

It is not fear which is wrong, but failing to rise above it.

 

[TareX]

Muslims unite and decry the activists, then we won't have reason to stereotype you.

Hey soccer buttocks, which part of this post did you fail to read? Here it is again, soccer buttocks. WARNING: Don't read it if you enjoy the view with your head deep in the sand.

How many mosques have you been to? What are your news sources? Which agenda-driven US network would choose to run a piece titled: "Breaking news: Anti-terror speech given at a mosque, for the 10000th time!"
"Breaking news: Muslims form human shields around churches"

Take my word for it, or don't. Terrorism hurts muslims the most. As a Muslim in North America, I wake up everyday worried I'd read about some mass murdering event on CNN witha muslim-looking name attached.

Condemnation? It's almost insulting to ask for it. It's like asking Catholics to organize mass anti-child molestation marches saying their religion is against it. D-UH "No, we actually totally support it. That's why we didn't organize the march"

Last week in Egypt, thousands of Muslims camped in front of Coptic churches in a show of solidarity against Al-Qaeda, many even joined the prayers. Who reported that? Who reported the exact same behavior in Indonesia last year?

EVERY SINGLE mass-Muslim event I've attended in the last 2 years in North America had a boring-as-hell anti-terror speech, to which none of the attendees can relate to, since it's like "DUH- WE KNOW IT'S A FRACKIN INHUMANE, COWARDLY CRIMINAL ACT."

You do realize that Muslims -like you, have a whole lot of other things in life to worry about, other than terrorism, right? I have to worry about my next-job, my family, the future of my kids -while "announcing that I don't support mass-murdering pigs" doesn't even lie on the first 2 pages of my 1-page priority list.

HINT: The biggest muslim website on the internet (probably the biggest website on the internet -in term of subscribers) is www.amrkhaled.com - who happens to be the single most moderate Muslim preacher on the planet.

I actually hate the terms "moderate" and "extremist", since it implies that someone who is an extremist is "very, very muslim -following it very strictly". As in "extremely Muslim", while someone who is a moderate, is a so-and-so Muslim while the truth couldn't be any further. I'm just using the terms because I'm forced to. That's how the media makes up words with double meanings.

But hey, what I just said didn't fit with your agenda/rhetoric. So dismiss it, and please, keep stereotyping us.

 

[IGBT]

Fort Hood shooting is part of a larger established pattern and infinitely more serious and significant.

 

[Infohawk]

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself by a few years, but how else would you label a minority? It'll be perfectly true within our life time.

My point was mainly that racial labels aren't that useful to this topic. If he was a white supremacist (COW would have busted a nut) it would have been relevant. The same goes for a Muslim who commits grand theft auto. It's not that relevant because he's most likely not doing it in the name of Islam.

This case is unusual in that he really doesn't have a coherent agenda and his insanity is the most useful label.

 

[RightIsWrong]

My point was mainly that racial labels aren't that useful to this topic. If he was a white supremacist (COW would have busted a nut) it would have been relevant. The same goes for a Muslim who commits grand theft auto. It's not that relevant because he's most likely not doing it in the name of Islam.

This case is unusual in that he really doesn't have a coherent agenda and his insanity is the most useful label.

Your statement reeks of bigotry in that you are stating that any Muslim that commits GTA is "most likely" just joy riding and not doing it in the name of his/her religions but implying that a murder would certainly be done in the name of his/her religion.

 

[shadow9d9]

They went far FAR beyond that. They freaking pronounced it before any evidence what so ever.

Umm, I do not think that article means what you think it means.

Wait.. seriously? That is what you think it means?

I'll break it down for you. Read slowly. After the shootings, people put closer scruitny on the violent right wing rhetoric that has been coming out. For example, Palin putting targets on people and telling them to reload. Bachman telling people to use 2nd amendment solutions. Beck and others telling people to take back the country. Protesters saying they didn't bring guns THIS time. The article was about how violent rhetoric could affect people, not that it necessarily DID affect people. There is no real way to know if it had an effect or not.

 

[JohnnyGage]

The Imperialism/Capitalism/Christian trifecta has killed approximately 147 million people since 1500 is the estimates. Probably double that if you include imperialist type wars over resources/money such as Spanish Civil War, native genocides for land and Iraq.
WW1 is debatable but I usually include it, WW2 is basically round Europe's Round 2 of WW1 but I do not think Hitler (who is responsible) was a straight up capitalist, or his motives were profit driven. Now Mussolini? He would make quite a few of these right-wing cappy "patriots" here get woodys with his form of nationalist blend of Fascism/Capitalism that knew how to "Git 'er done" without the bad anti-semetic un-pc aftertaste of Hitlers Fascism.

What in the holy hell are you talking about. Your boy Stalin is responsible for more deaths than Hitler and Mussolini combined--Stalin has 20 million, while Europe sustained around 17million(could be wrong--just a guess. But lets throw Mao and Cambodia in there and round it up to a cool 100million deaths by Communism alone in the 20th century. Like your hero Lenin would say 'one death is tragic, 1 million is just a statistic'. But go ahead and blame evil capitalism. I thought someone had a ticket for you out of this capitalistic hell hole?

 

[Steeplerot]

What in the holy hell are you talking about. Your boy Stalin is responsible for more deaths than Hitler and Mussolini combined--Stalin has 20 million, while Europe sustained around 17million(could be wrong--just a guess. But lets throw Mao and Cambodia in there and round it up to a cool 100million deaths by Communism alone in the 20th century. Like your hero Lenin would say 'one death is tragic, 1 million is just a statistic'. But go ahead and blame evil capitalism. I thought someone had a ticket for you out of this capitalistic hell hole?

Sweet, another rightie using German propaganda figures from the 1940s reprinted as "convient" fact.

And by the way, I am no fan of right-wing totalitarian regimes, regardless of what they called themselves. State Capitalist dictatorships are nothing but capitalism in decay anyhow.

By the way, your history is partisan garbage from a rw crackerjack box.

Seriously, what low will you guys sink to next to feed your partisan hype? Mein Kampf a referenced historical document now? You would think this forum was a mini-stormfront with the racism and nazi shit that passes.

Just to clear up a little misinformation, Lenin and Stalin (the bolshiviks) were the hard RIGHT-WING of Russian politics in 1917, which had no literal surface "right-wing" as calling yourself that was basically calling yourself a monarchist in the middle of the mess that was WW1 and the Russian revolution.

So once again, I fully reject the coup of the Bolsheviks and their right wing thugs ideology they pimped as "Communism" as traitorous to the Russian people and pure poison to the worldwide revolution)

Rational leftists and libertarians worldwide from 1917 on rejected the bolshevik right-wing in the Post Kerensky government as unsocialist and unjust for humanity.

The OMG leftists are COMMIES that support stalin and Bolshevistic/Stalinistic type regimes is a really ignorant strawman if you knew a bit of Russian/CCCP history.

There is a very plain obvious reason why both hitler and stalin got their start in the same way (usurping the cause of leftism to pull a thug move and get themselves "elected" by force.) They are one in the same ideology as fascism with a bs false front to suck people into the mass-media propaganda machine of the time.

Hitler and Stalin calling themselves "socialist" is the same kind of right-wing arrogant bombastic trick as Foxnews calling itself "Fair and Balanced" to misinform people into buying into the propaganda fantasyworld.

The creepiest and most tragic part of this right-wing misinformation about Russia and Gemrnay back then is that in that time period if you were a lefty your ass got shot in the gulags in the USSR. (or Stalin sent a dude with a icepick out to jam into your skull) and if you were a lefty in Germany, you went to camps. None of your right-wing revisionists point this simple fact that millions along with the Jews died for being nothing more then "liberals" and not towing the extreme reactionary line of their governments.

It is just another form of holocaust denial, with a politically charged revisionist twist saying those who were being starved, shot/gassed the whole damn time are the ones responsible.

Many actual leftists back then confronted Lenin in the late teens about the new totalitarian shithole russian was becoming -this new USSR as it was called. If you read some history you would understand why actual leftists were trying to escape the USSR (or fought AGAINST the Bolshevik Red armies themselves to only be smashed by both the Red and White armies (the Whites were the real righty minority of russia who got tossed out of power in the government when the Czar got offed)

I swear when you hear this shit about Lenin/Stalin being a leftist you want to bang your head against the wall for the ignorance of my fellow citizens of exactly how these folks got into power back then. I know it's obscure chunk of late WW1 history to Americans but you should at least have a vague understanding of what happened if you are going to try to use history against someone's character.


Another chunk of Socialist history related:

V Lenin HID when the workers overthrew the Kerensky Government and did not even support the workers October Revolution and only came out of hiding in Petragrad when it was sure that the " glorious people" won and it would be safe to publicly support the "Bolshevik" revolution won by the "soviets" -The soviets were workers in factories who organized and trained to run their own society. (and were killed by the bolshevik regime) Stalin was not even in the area as he was in a Gulag siberia during the actual revolution. But he made sure to kill every last one of the "leftists" who fought in petragrad in 1917. Look up the "great purges". Everyone once again who was a lefty died. But here the righties tell us its the victims fault again. Nazi revisionism creeping its way into mainstream US political debate..wtf.

Blame assholes like Stalin and Hitler, but leave the Russian people and leftists out of it, most hated Stalin also and just wanted a more just society they felt they fought for. (The Russian people saw overthrowing the Czar akin to our telling the UK to take a leap in 1776) These folks were also our allies and did the lion's share of fighting in WW2. You righties need to learn to pick your battles, the mccarthy bs will not work long-term when you give it the historical sniff test.

The garden variety US Democratic party supporter usually only gets into history back to FDR and Hoovers failings late term. Never back to WW1 era. It is sad too as there are far more parallels to draw in these times of war and another Democratic President bowing to the nationalism, war drums and the same big greed that drives the political machine of the USA. Thing is back then the left was not neutered by the mess of the name Socialism itself. Now the left in the USA has had to be on the defensive. A masterfully played act by right-wing pundits back then labeling any moderate lefty a foreign infiltrator and bolshevik supporter. (most of these big name pundits went on to become Mussolini and even later some were even Hitler sympathizers in the next decade or so during the "FDR is a commie!" phase of RW talk radio rhetoric in the 30s, surprise surprise)

Why do righties historically hate so freaking bad what became known as Socialism and a rather beingn number of peaceful systems of governments worldwide today? (Including even the USA)

Remember: Republicans were allowed to use common sense ideas like building infrastructure grows US business and such, which now that the Reps ideology has taken over by misguided fundamentalists is a big no)

Back when the Bolsheviks took over it was in the middle of WW1, the workers of Russia (and a huge growing part of Germany who were dragged into WW1) viewed WW1 as a capitalist war between the imperialist powers and did not wish to die on the battlefields with their German comrades either! (This was before the leader of the moderate Berlin Socialists Rosa Luxembourg was assassinated by German right-wingers. (the same dicks who became hitlers SA later on!) Russian armies and German armies stopped fighting altogether in many cases on the eastern front and even pronounced one another as comrades and hinted that the enemy just may be the jerks who drafted them into killing one another for a few folks profit across the world and got us all into the pointless mess of WW1.

Right wingers in USA HATED this. And yes, I can see why! They were FURIOUS that new new leader of the just created Red Army Leon Trotsky wanted to pull Russia right out of the war and end the eastern front just when the US troops were arriving in France, I do not think this is purposeful but I do think Trotsky betrayed the Red Army also with the utterly shameful and the disgrace of a treaty he signed with the Germans pulling the Red Army out of WW1 and ceding all of the ukraine and massive other parts of Poland to the new German government.

Granted Trotsky was desperate and in the middle of a huge internal revolution between white armies, libertarian armies, and his newly formed red army for dominance of all of Russia. This was about when everyone talks about the big famine in the ukraine as the only big deal going on and how bad Lenin was. To be fair partisan elements of the German army was razing the Ukraine for payback and rounding up Jews to kill in what is known as pogroms back then. Trotsky could not help as suddenly WW1 ended and all the world powers who were once enemies all invaded Russia for not playing "the game". Trotskys Red army fought back 11 WW1 verteran weary armies sick of war, beat the Czarist whites finally, stabbed the lefty libertarians in the back and sent them to exile or gulags so noone would question HIS idea of the revoloution and how much silly democracy socialism needed. Stalin comes into the picture at this point. Sorry for the long history today. I am bored.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Sweet, another rightie using German propaganda figures from the 1940s reprinted as "convient" fact.

And by the way, I am no fan of right-wing totalitarian regimes, regardless of what they called themselves. State Capitalist dictatorships are nothing but capitalism in decay anyhow.

By the way, your history is partisan garbage from a rw crackerjack box.

Seriously, what low will you guys sink to next to feed your partisan hype? Mein Kampf a referenced historical document now? You would think this forum was a mini-stormfront with the racism and nazi shit that passes.

Just to clear up a little misinformation, Lenin and Stalin (the bolshiviks) were the hard RIGHT-WING of Russian politics in 1917, which had no literal surface "right-wing" as calling yourself that was basically calling yourself a monarchist in the middle of the mess that was WW1 and the Russian revolution.

So once again, I fully reject the coup of the Bolsheviks and their right wing thugs ideology they pimped as "Communism" as traitorous to the Russian people and pure poison to the worldwide revolution)

Rational leftists and libertarians worldwide from 1917 on rejected the bolshevik right-wing in the Post Kerensky government as unsocialist and unjust for humanity.

The OMG leftists are COMMIES that support stalin and Bolshevistic/Stalinistic type regimes is a really ignorant strawman if you knew a bit of Russian/CCCP history.

There is a very plain obvious reason why both hitler and stalin got their start in the same way (usurping the cause of leftism to pull a thug move and get themselves "elected" by force.) They are one in the same ideology as fascism with a bs false front to suck people into the mass-media propaganda machine of the time.

Hitler and Stalin calling themselves "socialist" is the same kind of right-wing arrogant bombastic trick as Foxnews calling itself "Fair and Balanced" to misinform people into buying into the propaganda fantasyworld.

The creepiest and most tragic part of this right-wing misinformation about Russia and Gemrnay back then is that in that time period if you were a lefty your ass got shot in the gulags in the USSR. (or Stalin sent a dude with a icepick out to jam into your skull) and if you were a lefty in Germany, you went to camps. None of your right-wing revisionists point this simple fact that millions along with the Jews died for being nothing more then "liberals" and not towing the extreme reactionary line of their governments.

It is just another form of holocaust denial, with a politically charged revisionist twist saying those who were being starved, shot/gassed the whole damn time are the ones responsible.

Many actual leftists back then confronted Lenin in the late teens about the new totalitarian shithole russian was becoming -this new USSR as it was called. If you read some history you would understand why actual leftists were trying to escape the USSR (or fought AGAINST the Bolshevik Red armies themselves to only be smashed by both the Red and White armies (the Whites were the real righty minority of russia who got tossed out of power in the government when the Czar got offed)

I swear when you hear this shit about Lenin/Stalin being a leftist you want to bang your head against the wall for the ignorance of my fellow citizens of exactly how these folks got into power back then. I know it's obscure chunk of late WW1 history to Americans but you should at least have a vague understanding of what happened if you are going to try to use history against someone's character.


Another chunk of Socialist history related:

V Lenin HID when the workers overthrew the Kerensky Government and did not even support the workers October Revolution and only came out of hiding in Petragrad when it was sure that the " glorious people" won and it would be safe to publicly support the "Bolshevik" revolution won by the "soviets" -The soviets were workers in factories who organized and trained to run their own society. (and were killed by the bolshevik regime) Stalin was not even in the area as he was in a Gulag siberia during the actual revolution. But he made sure to kill every last one of the "leftists" who fought in petragrad in 1917. Look up the "great purges". Everyone once again who was a lefty died. But here the righties tell us its the victims fault again. Nazi revisionism creeping its way into mainstream US political debate..wtf.

Blame assholes like Stalin and Hitler, but leave the Russian people and leftists out of it, most hated Stalin also and just wanted a more just society they felt they fought for. (The Russian people saw overthrowing the Czar akin to our telling the UK to take a leap in 1776) These folks were also our allies and did the lion's share of fighting in WW2. You righties need to learn to pick your battles, the mccarthy bs will not work long-term when you give it the historical sniff test.

The garden variety US Democratic party supporter usually only gets into history back to FDR and Hoovers failings late term. Never back to WW1 era. It is sad too as there are far more parallels to draw in these times of war and another Democratic President bowing to the nationalism, war drums and the same big greed that drives the political machine of the USA. Thing is back then the left was not neutered by the mess of the name Socialism itself. Now the left in the USA has had to be on the defensive. A masterfully played act by right-wing pundits back then labeling any moderate lefty a foreign infiltrator and bolshevik supporter. (most of these big name pundits went on to become Mussolini and even later some were even Hitler sympathizers in the next decade or so during the "FDR is a commie!" phase of RW talk radio rhetoric in the 30s, surprise surprise)

Wow, anything to justify a failed government system. It was the bolsheviks, right. The people hated stalin--exactly 20 mil people disappeared. I believe Lenin had a term for this, it was 'useful idiot'.

 

[Steeplerot]

For any Leninist lurkers who would point out the videos contradiction in his spreading freedom and his denunciation of Stalin and his wishing him not to take over. Yes, Lenin said the brutality and suspension of freedoms was only a war-time thing. Then he was shot in the neck twice. Stalin took over very early when Russia was still coming out of the revolution. Who knows if Lenin would gone along with Trotsky to make a moderate european democratic socialist state more like a modern one nowadays Trotsky and Lenin sometimes got along enough to have somewaht envisioned. (and got a icepick in the head from Stalin for suggesting after Lenin was gone) But history is not that kind to Lenin when it comes to brutality, nor Trotsky. But this is not how history played out. Lenin had multiple strokes from his gunshot wounds and Stalin moved in, dismissing Lenin's "will" which plainly stated Stalin should NOT be in charge of anything as he is a thug.

This is where you can plainly see the divide between a socialist Canadian guy nowadays, a US Democrat and -a Stalinist. (yes, they are out there still -yuck)

Stalin immediately argued that the whole world was against the frail state of the USSR right after the Red army barely won the revolution (which his true, the USSR was pretty much economically blockaded and isolated modern Cuba style since right after WW1 up until 1991) Lenin, right after the Revoloution when the state was being "hammered into shape" was himself a wheelchair-ridden cripple having progressively debilitating strokes through the late teens early 1920s as he had a bullet lodged still in a artery in his neck from a assassination attempt during the revolution. (and a failed surgical attempt due to lack of supplies thanks to ally blockade -some say) It was actually quite easy for a bankrobber, trainrobber, kidnapping extorting "desperado" of Russia jailed many times and almost always a fugitive to take over.

As much as Leninists make Lenin out to be anti-Stalin taking over, Stalin was Lenin's right hand man and thug/bodyguard when they were on the run constantly.

Ok, so I am not a Leninist or Stalinist or whatever crap you think a commie is, and will not type out another anti-communist socialist diatribe out again, although it was mildly amusing use of time.

 

[Steeplerot]

Wow, anything to justify a failed government system. It was the bolsheviks, right. The people hated stalin--exactly 20 mil people disappeared. I believe Lenin had a term for this, it was 'useful idiot'.

Of course the SU was a failed system. As all stalinist models are even today.

You guys act like everyone does not realize this, even back in 1917.

If you get bored try reading some of that, I agree with righties on historical points quite a few times. If anything I informed myself of this stuff so I probably know better why also instead of a broad brush "xxxism is baaaad".

That is usually the argument of those with a lack of depth to an issue. But, that is politics.

 

[werepossum]

Sweet, another rightie using German propaganda figures from the 1940s reprinted as "convient" fact.

SNIP
Sorry for the long history today. I am bored.

You are not bored, you are insane. This comes from trying (albeit laughably poorly so) to separate Communism from socialism.

 

[Steeplerot]

You are not bored, you are insane. This comes from trying (albeit laughably poorly so) to separate Communism from socialism.

There is no country in the first world not Democratic Socialist, so the whole world is Communist to you? No wonder you folks are so paranoid.

Nice black and white fundamentalist thinking.

 

[Muse]

My impression is he's not religious at all. He's just a certifiable schmuck.

 

[werepossum]

There is no country in the first world not Democratic Socialist, so the whole world is Communist to you? No wonder you folks are so paranoid.

Nice black and white fundamentalist thinking.

Communism is full-blown socialism. Socialism is not necessarily communism. Some degree of socialism is required for civilization; communism is a much, much higher degree of socialism. Most thinking adults have revulsion toward communism whilst still desiring some degree of socialism in society. This is not "black and white fundamentalist thinking", it is simple logic to realize that most things taken to an extreme are not necessarily desirable. Most people appreciate religion; few people want to be monks or nuns. Most people desire a home that is heated; few desire a home that is on fire. (These are analogies - for example, using the relationship between heat and a house fire to illustrate the relationship between socialism and communism. You can look up the concept if needed.)

 

[Infohawk]

Your statement reeks of bigotry in that you are stating that any Muslim that commits GTA is "most likely" just joy riding and not doing it in the name of his/her religions but implying that a murder would certainly be done in the name of his/her religion.

Well the big difference is what the criminal actually says his intent was. I'm not saying that if a Muslim kills his wife out of jealousy of an affair that that is in the name of Islam. What I'm saying that is that if you fly a plane into a building screaming allah akbar and furthering an Islamist agenda you are doing it for religious reasons. Completely unlike Loughner killing people because he thought they were fake. Are you just stupid or intellectually dishonest?

 

[Zebo]

The whole supposition is ridiculous since Islam actually calls for violence and many believe in it.

Yeah let's be brutally honest. If the suspect's name was Jamil or Mahmud his motive would have been Jihadi fundamentalist thinking and he would have said so like most do in their suicide notes. Quite lucid and sane as well unlike this loony toon in AZ.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

if it were a muslim, there would be explosives strapped to his body. not gunshots fired.