What if Jared Loughner were a Muslim? -CNN editorial

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epidemis

Senior member
Jun 6, 2007
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You sure missed the point. It was to point out the existing bias that exists against certain groups, that the reaction against one person or another varies greatly as a result.

And I pointed out, how we react to a certain event, depends on their context. People judge Jared as a part of an irrelevant organisation, that are not really a serious threat. When a islamic gunman massacres in the name of Allah. He's associated to a global Jihad-movement that are deadlier. An idea, intent can be a lot more threatening and right now, Islamic supremacy is a lot more threatening idea than anarchism.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
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And I pointed out, how we react to a certain event, depends on their context. People judge Jared as a part of an irrelevant organisation, that are not really a serious threat. When a islamic gunman massacres in the name of Allah. He's associated to a global Jihad-movement that are deadlier. An idea, intent can be a lot more threatening and right now, Islamic supremacy is a lot more threatening idea than anarchism.

Really? Are Muslims a bigger threat than 'lone nuts' based on history?

Lincoln, US radical. McKinley, US Anarchist. Teddy Roosevelt, lone nut/anarchist. JFK, RFK, 'lone nut' radicals. Ford, Reagan, lone nuts. Truman, non-Muslim radicals. FDR, corporate conspiracy.

Timothy McVeigh, David Koresh, Jonestown...

And to my point if it had been an illegal Mexican immigrant - no real history of violence against US leaders, but the reaction would have been huge.

What we have is the pairing of the words 'terrorism' and 'Muslim' very closely in the media, to where it seems a large majority of the uses are used together, creating this fear.

As I've pointed out, when people are looking for something, they notice it more, creating bias and distortion.

For example, a second NFL player involved in animal cruelty soon after Michael Vick would have gotten a lot more attention because of Vick than it otherwise would have.

That distortion is what's being noted. You are merely parroting the distortion.

There is some threat of radical Muslim terrorism, but the level of fear created, as the very word Muslim immediately makes most people react 'terrorism', is exaggerated.

Ask Juan Williams.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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Were they Christians?(rhetorical question)

Fail, fail.

Who cares if they were Christians? Why can't you understand that motive is really important? If you happen to be left-handed and commit a crime it has nothing to do with being left-handed. If you're a Muslim or a Christian AND DO CRIMES IN THE NAME OF YOUR RELIGION, the religion has something to do with the crime. It's really not that complicated.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,952
8,004
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You are comparing apples to oranges with your "waiting" statement.

You're out of context. I do not see what the OP has to do with world events, and am instead talking about attacks and attitudes within the United States.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,224
5,800
126
Who cares if they were Christians? Why can't you understand that motive is really important? If you happen to be left-handed and commit a crime it has nothing to do with being left-handed. If you're a Muslim or a Christian AND DO CRIMES IN THE NAME OF YOUR RELIGION, the religion has something to do with the crime. It's really not that complicated.

It was asked for an example of "Christians" committing a violent act. That's all.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
People only know what you present, if that's what you present, then that's what you are. If you want to be viewed as something else or as someone who holds different ideals, then make them clear. Most the time though you are just a raving idiot who thinks he's smarter than he really is. Not to say you don't have moments of clarity that leaving me scratching my head that they actually came from you, but for the most part yeah... you're kind of a fucking moron.
Exactly. When I do see something lucid from Craig, it sets me back. When I agree with him, it REALLY sets me back.

95% of what people post about Craig234 is correct, the other 5% is spot on!!
LOL!
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
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You're out of context. I do not see what the OP has to do with world events, and am instead talking about attacks and attitudes within the United States.

While not on par with the shear spectacular nature and overall numbers, I could list off abortion clinic bombers, Tim McVeigh, the Atlanta Olympic bomber, the Salem Witch Trials and the Mormon War among others.

All were acts committed by white, anglo-Americans who had Christian backgrounds.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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While not on par with the shear spectacular nature and overall numbers, I could list off abortion clinic bombers, Tim McVeigh, the Atlanta Olympic bomber, the Salem Witch Trials and the Mormon War among others.

All were acts committed by white, anglo-Americans who had Christian backgrounds.

The only ones that aren't ancient history and that are done in the name of Christianity are the abortion killings. Islam has infinitely more deaths in its name. Nice try.

Do you think the last place team in the NFL deserves a super bowl trophy too? After all, they one one game so they're just about the same as a team that won all their games according to your dumb logic.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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When people bring up the other crap, do they completely forget The Golden Horde was Muslim? One of the most brutal and efficiently awesome fighting forces of all time? Did they do it all for Islam huh or were they just Muslims doing something to further their secular cause?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
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When people bring up the other crap, do they completely forget The Golden Horde was Muslim? One of the most brutal and efficiently awesome fighting forces of all time? Did they do it all for Islam huh or were they just Muslims doing something to further their secular cause?

People like to forget or revise history, just like how they forget about the billions slaughtered by the British Empire for the glory of the King/Queen (head of the Anglican church).
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
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People like to forget or revise history, just like how they forget about the billions slaughtered by the British Empire for the glory of the King/Queen (head of the Anglican church).

Billions were not slaughtered by the british empire, that is foolish to think. tens of millions? reasonable to imagine, but not billions my friend, not billions.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
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Christians might have done something as bad as 9/11, but if they didn't do it in the name of Christianity, then Christianity should not be fingered as a cause. I don't get how you don't get this. The action was completely secular and had nothing to do with the Christian religion, so it must be because of the Christian religion? That's your logic. I'm applying this to ALL situations. Change the words Christian for Muslim and that still makes sense to you?

The action was completely secular and had nothing to do with the Muslim religion, so it must be because of the Muslim religion.

I still don't think that the motives of those in the upper ranks of al Qaeda are based on any real religious beliefs and are much more likely to be motivated by geopolitical factors. Now, that isn't to say that they aren't motivating the foot soldiers by manipulating them with religious factors, but I am of the strong belief that the leaders are much more politically motivated than religious making the true 9/11 actions secular.

al Qaeda's targets pre-9/11 were almost exclusively American military targets and a strong argument can be made that even 9/11 was solely a politically motivated act based on the targets; the Pentagon and the financial capitals. There is nothing even remotely Christian about either target which begs the question, if this was an attack based on religious beliefs, why not go after targets that symbolize the opposition religion like the Vatican or a great cathedral?

Here's a profile of bin Laden from the CFR that quotes a manifesto that he put out in 1998:

Bin Laden and other militant Islamist leaders issued a 1998 manifesto denouncing the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia, U.S. support of Israel, and the economic sanctions imposed after the 1991 Gulf War against Saddam Hussein's Iraq. "To kill Americans and their allies, both civil and military, is an individual duty of every Muslim who is able, in any country," the manifesto reads, "until their armies, shattered and broken-winged, depart from all the lands of Islam."

I think that there is a distinct bias that allows Christians and other Protestants to separate the actions of political leaders that practice their faith from their actions on the political front while tightly intertwining the actions of Muslim political leaders with their faith. As a result, anything that a political leader who happens to be Muslim does is doing so in the name of their religious beliefs and anything that a leader of a nation that is Christian does is doing so in the name of the best interests of their country as opposed to it being based on their faith no matter how many times that leader has ended a speech with "God bless America" or has talked openly about praying for spiritual guidance in coming to a decision.

It's a double standard and blatantly hypocritical, but it's also human nature. It's pretty much akin to a Republican supporter blasting the "big government liberals" while supporting every spending bill that the GOP put forth doubling the size of the government or a Democratic supporter blasting the "invasive conservatives" while giving bullshit excuses when Obama states that he will not only continue the practice, but try to expand it.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
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The only ones that aren't ancient history and that are done in the name of Christianity are the abortion killings. Islam has infinitely more deaths in its name. Nice try.

Do you think the last place team in the NFL deserves a super bowl trophy too? After all, they one one game so they're just about the same as a team that won all their games according to your dumb logic.

I see, so because the Christian killers aren't as efficient, they should be dismissed or should get a free pass?

I think that you need to go back to whatever Christian/Catholic school you attended and ask for a refund if you think that Islam has more deaths in its name than Christianity because they surely didn't teach you anything that remotely resembles history.

As for your attempt at an analogy re:NFL.....WTF are you even talking about? If you are trying to somehow construe that I am saying that someone who kills one person is equal to someone that kills thousands, your ability to comprehend is full of fail.

I would like to add that I do not doubt for a second that one of those Christian terrorists (yes, that's exactly what they are) who shots up an abortion clinic would fly a plane into a building killing thousands if they believed that the building was full of "sinners" such as abortion doctors, support staff and the harlots that are "killing the innocent lambs of the Great Sheppard".

Now, if you would like to make an intelligent rebuttal that is coherent and accurately portraying what I have stated, feel free. I'd lover the opportunity to show you the errors in your "thought" process.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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I see, so because the Christian killers aren't as efficient, they should be dismissed or should get a free pass?

I think that you need to go back to whatever Christian/Catholic school you attended and ask for a refund if you think that Islam has more deaths in its name than Christianity because they surely didn't teach you anything that remotely resembles history.

As for your attempt at an analogy re:NFL.....WTF are you even talking about? If you are trying to somehow construe that I am saying that someone who kills one person is equal to someone that kills thousands, your ability to comprehend is full of fail.

I would like to add that I do not doubt for a second that one of those Christian terrorists (yes, that's exactly what they are) who shots up an abortion clinic would fly a plane into a building killing thousands if they believed that the building was full of "sinners" such as abortion doctors, support staff and the harlots that are "killing the innocent lambs of the Great Sheppard".

Now, if you would like to make an intelligent rebuttal that is coherent and accurately portraying what I have stated, feel free. I'd lover the opportunity to show you the errors in your "thought" process.

You're a true buffoon. I'm not Christian and never went to a Christian school. I'm just able to see that tens of thousands of murders are more significant than a handful of abortion killings. It's really that simple. Islam is the motive of more death and destruction than Christianity is.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
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You're a true buffoon. I'm not Christian and never went to a Christian school. I'm just able to see that tens of thousands of murders are more significant than a handful of abortion killings. It's really that simple. Islam is the motive of more death and destruction than Christianity is.

You're a true idiot if you believe that. Islam is not the cause of deaths and murder, leaders wanting more power and wealth are and they use Islam as a tool to get idiots (such as yourself) to do their bidding in its name because they are too cowardly to do it themselves.

And you mistake opportunity on the Christian abortion clinic terrorists part with an inability to commit the act given the chance.

Once again, how is Mohamed Atta praying to Allah before he flies a plane into a building any different than George W. Bush praying to his Christian God before sending planes with bombs attached to them into Baghdad to commit "Shock and awe"?

If Bush is praying to his God for guidance in deciding whether to go to war with Iraq, then isn't is religion the basis for his decision to kill 100,000+ Iraqi people?

Your logic is full of fail if you think otherwise.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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You're a true idiot if you believe that. Islam is not the cause of deaths and murder, leaders wanting more power and wealth are and they use Islam as a tool to get idiots (such as yourself) to do their bidding in its name because they are too cowardly to do it themselves.

And you mistake opportunity on the Christian abortion clinic terrorists part with an inability to commit the act given the chance.

Once again, how is Mohamed Atta praying to Allah before he flies a plane into a building any different than George W. Bush praying to his Christian God before sending planes with bombs attached to them into Baghdad to commit "Shock and awe"?

If Bush is praying to his God for guidance in deciding whether to go to war with Iraq, then isn't is religion the basis for his decision to kill 100,000+ Iraqi people?

Your logic is full of fail if you think otherwise.

The 9/11 bombers crashed planes into buildings in the name of Islam. GWB didn't go to war in the name of Christianity. He may have prayed for guidance and success, but his reasons for going to war were political, not religious.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
The 9/11 bombers crashed planes into buildings in the name of Islam. GWB didn't go to war in the name of Christianity. He may have prayed for guidance and success, but his reasons for going to war were political, not religious.

You are stuck on the fact that the 19 guys at the foot soldier rank did it in the name of Islam and that those that planned, funded and dictated how the entire operation would go were doing it for political reasons and just praying to Allah for "guidance and success" a la GWB.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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You are stuck on the fact that the 19 guys at the foot soldier rank did it in the name of Islam and that those that planned, funded and dictated how the entire operation would go were doing it for political reasons and just praying to Allah for "guidance and success" a la GWB.

No the 9/11 leadership was motivated by Islam. They were pretty clear in saying they were doing it for the US interference in the Muslim world. And at the end of the day its the foot soldiers doing the killing. What does it say that only a handful of Christians "foot-soldiers" have been willing to kill abortion doctors over the past decades while tens of thousands of Muslim "foot soldiers" have been willing to do it.

Religion isn't some arbitrary gang color where all gangs are just as bad. Religions have different texts and cultures. Islam happens to be the one behind more violence than any other at the moment. Why are you so scared to admit that?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,224
5,800
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The 9/11 bombers crashed planes into buildings in the name of Islam. GWB didn't go to war in the name of Christianity. He may have prayed for guidance and success, but his reasons for going to war were political, not religious.

You're making a nonsensical distinction. Similar to the whole Suicide Vests vs [some other method of Killing/Destruction] determining one to be more evil than the other.

There's no difference.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,224
5,800
126
No the 9/11 leadership was motivated by Islam. They were pretty clear in saying they were doing it for the US interference in the Muslim world. And at the end of the day its the foot soldiers doing the killing. What does it say that only a handful of Christians "foot-soldiers" have been willing to kill abortion doctors over the past decades while tens of thousands of Muslim "foot soldiers" have been willing to do it.

Religion isn't some arbitrary gang color where all gangs are just as bad. Religions have different texts and cultures. Islam happens to be the one behind more violence than any other at the moment. Why are you so scared to admit that?

Their beef was Political. You even state it yourself, you just don't see it.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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And is that a religious motivator or a geopolitical motivator?

Well considering OBL is from Saudi Arabia and was concerned about the plight of Palestinians because they're MUSLIM, I'm going with religious. Sure there's overlap between the two but again it's not that hard to understand: the US army fight under the flag of the USA which is a secular state. Jihadists fight in the name of Islam, a religion. It's by their own admission. It's not like their hiding that fact. It's only people like routan and hard-core liberals that try to deny that fact.