I've heard this and I'm willing to bet it's true. It was asinine for the other user to suggest TSMC a Taiwanese company is feeding China when China can't get themselves in order and must rely on badly botched copies of western goods or other Asian goods.All the huge factories that produce high tech goods for western companies on mainland China are run by either Americans or Europeans for a reason. The Chinese just don't have the knowledge to produce these things on their own. They can make cheap, inferior knock-offs but that is it.
Does Intel divulge their EUV equipment spending in their earnings?I don’t know how you can be so sure of that. 7nm doesn’t use SAQP, which is one of the biggest problems with 10nm DUV. I believe by now, that Intel has learned what it needed to from other aspects of the 10nm node. Node implementation is incrementally dependent with multiple teams in different stages of research and development. If spending on EUV equipment doesn’t go way up over the next 18 months - that would be very bad news.
Does Intel divulge their EUV equipment spending in their earnings?
Could Intel have moved to 7nm sooner or was the EUV equipment necessary not available in good quantity?
Intel has started placing equipment and materials orders for EUV fabrication processes since August, and is stepping up its pace of orders, according to industry sources.
Does Intel divulge their EUV equipment spending in their earnings?
Could Intel have moved to 7nm sooner or was the EUV equipment necessary not available in good quantity?
Good point, let's talk Electronics Manufacturing Services, those are the ones doing the actual production in many cases. You're right those are most often not Chinese. What are they?All the huge factories that produce high tech goods for western companies on mainland China are run by either Americans or Europeans for a reason. The Chinese just don't have the knowledge to produce these things on their own. They can make cheap, inferior knock-offs but that is it.
To a point, but one should always invest in concurrent R&D independent from each other so they aren't blocking each other. Keep in mind Intel had a biannual node cadence and want to have that again. 22nm was in 2011, 14nm was in 2014 (wasting time of half a new node), 10nm is counted as 2019 (wasting time of two and a half new nodes), 7nm is supposedly coming at the end of 2021, but more like 2022, and even that seems optimistic to me (so maybe wasting time of half a new node or more). That, by Intel's own preferred cadence, add up to more than 3 new nodes that they missed by having their work on the current three nodes 14, 10 and 7nm block their traditional progress.I don't think you can just jump to the next node like previous node never existed. Pretty sure there are parts of previous node design that will carry over to the next one. if 10nm gets delayed, all future nodes will inevitably gets delayed.
7nm in 2022 is not a bad position? Of course if it's competitive it's better than the state right now. But from Intel's POV, their latest process node merely being competitive is what I would call bad. We'll have to see how that all plays out, but my trust in Intel's capability to execute new nodes is pretty much in shatters right now.Regardless, Intel wouldn't be in a bad position if they manages to move their consumer/Server CPU lineup to 7nm in 2022. So all the talk about Intel spinning off their fabs or fabbing their CPUs on TSMC is bit premature at this point.
Intel had 1 year warning with 14nm's delay as well as 5 years of nonsense time wasting with still no server and desktop chip in sight with 10nm. If their next node working well depends on their spending on EUV equipment over the next 18 months they have already lost.I don’t know how you can be so sure of that. 7nm doesn’t use SAQP, which is one of the biggest problems with 10nm DUV. I believe by now, that Intel has learned what it needed to from other aspects of the 10nm node. Node implementation is incrementally dependent with multiple teams in different stages of research and development. If spending on EUV equipment doesn’t go way up over the next 18 months - that would be very bad news.
7nm in 2022 is not a bad position? Of course if it's competitive it's better than the state right now. But from Intel's POV, their latest process node merely being competitive is what I would call bad. We'll have to see how that all plays out, but my trust in Intel's capability to execute new nodes is pretty much in shatters right now.
To a point, but one should always invest in concurrent R&D independent from each other so they aren't blocking each other. Keep in mind Intel had a biannual node cadence and want to have that again. 22nm was in 2011, 14nm was in 2014 (wasting time of half a new node), 10nm is counted as 2019 (wasting time of two and a half new nodes), 7nm is supposedly coming at the end of 2021, but more like 2022, and even that seems optimistic to me (so maybe wasting time of half a new node or more). That, by Intel's own preferred cadence, add up to more than 3 new nodes that they missed by having their work on the current three nodes 14, 10 and 7nm block their traditional progress.
7nm in 2022 is not a bad position? Of course if it's competitive it's better than the state right now. But from Intel's POV, their latest process node merely being competitive is what I would call bad. We'll have to see how that all plays out, but my trust in Intel's capability to execute new nodes is pretty much in shatters right now.
Intel had 1 year warning with 14nm's delay as well as 5 years of nonsense time wasting with still no server and desktop chip in sight with 10nm. If their next node working well depends on their spending on EUV equipment over the next 18 months they have already lost.
IIRC, Intel pumped something like a billion dollars into ASML to help move EUV development along. I wonder I’d this might affect their allocation %?
Actually, it was $4B US. TSMC and Samsung put in 100s of millions as well.
Intel Pumps $4 Billion Into ASML Holdings To Accelerate Next-Generation Manufacturing Technologies | Trefis
While most manufacturers continue to suffer from a slowdown in the semiconductor industry, Intel (NASDAQ:INTC) seems to be thinking a step ahead, as is evident from the $4.1 billion investment that the company has committed into the Dutch semiconductor equipment company - ASML Holdings...www.trefis.com
Intel's problem this time round is not the design of their CPU, but their manufacturing process, so unless that gets fixed, it is unimaginable that they could have another Conroe to bail them out.Zero evidence but I still feel Intel has some shenanigans. Something like a core2duo change coming in 2020
Thanks for the update. I wasn’t linking AMSL's deliveries and the success of Intel’s 7nm EUV process - it just affects whether or not they can produce in volume.Damn I knew this was going to come up, but I couldn't be bothered to included this in my previous rant-ish reply.
The link was from 2012, here is one from 2018
If I remember correctly none of the current Foundry has stake in ASML any longer.
I do want to point out those Intel order were made in advance, whether ASML will ship them on time, and whether Intel can get 7nm yield right ( TSMC had 7nm as a test case along with their own toolchain ) is entirely different matter.
Remind me more technical people than me. N7P is just 7nm but a little more power efficient or a little faster and we are talking 10% best case on those two metrics.
From the Article: Intel chips will be fabricated on TSMC's 7nm optimised version of its 6nm process. (I'm not sure if that means TSMC N7P, N7+, or N6.)
@Roland00Address
I don't think N6 is an EUV node. It has the same design rules as N7/N7P and is essentially a "dead end" for customers that don't want to pay for N7+ or N5