But moonbeam, Islam came 600 years after Christ and about 2000 years after Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Bible, and basically quotes the Bible.
Actually it's not a cage, it means I can freely, and with open mind explore, knowing that blindness is not an option.
"The ordinary reaction to people who believe in what appears to be bunk is to dismiss everything they believe."
That might be the ordinary reaction, but I choose otherwise. I allow reason and my senses to search out whether what I believe is indeed factual and true, and allow my beliefs to change according to my knowledge.
That might be the ordinary reaction, but I choose otherwise. I allow reason and my senses to search out whether what I believe is indeed factual and true, and allow my beliefs to change according to my knowledge.
"I can only conclude that you want to buy into something that doesn't self sell."
You are correct, Truth doesn't sell. Man does not like to be told that he is not god, yet that is exactly what the Bible states, and why Christ was killed. Christ was killed for telling the truth, that He is God.
You are correct, Truth doesn't sell. Man does not like to be told that he is not god, yet that is exactly what the Bible states, and why Christ was killed. Christ was killed for telling the truth, that He is God.
Hehe, petrek, I understand that faith is like teflon. My concern is that as time goes on, I fear that a statistically smaller amd smaller sample of the population will be able to be shoe horned into your brand of sneeker. The proof of that seems to be all around you. Such people will be looking around and if there is nothing, they will find nothing.
Guessing about the future is pointless. I deal with the here and now. And biblical prophecies are consistant with what is happening around us.
Do you think that if God came out of the sky every morning saying "I am God, believe in me" that you would then believe in Him? I say you would make up some excuse as to why that isn't really happening, just a mind trick by some powerful people.
Why do you think that of me? I come from a religious void, there is nothing that would compell me to become a Christian that would not also compell me to become a Hindu. There is no empirical evidence of a God, there is only the fortress of relative rational people have built around themselves. If God popped up in the sky, then all would be clear, but he hasn't. As for the prophecies, an astrologer can claim with the utmost certainty that the stars are accurate in their prophecies. A follower of Nostradamus can make the same claim. They believe it to be so, and it becomes so. Men have been cured of their ailments with only a sugar pill, believing it to be medicine, that is the power of the mind.
You are correct, Truth doesn't sell. Man does not like to be told that he is not god, yet that is exactly what the Bible states, and why Christ was killed.
This works inversely. You will not think outside the box, because if you do, the world as you've defined in your mind, it falls apart.
Why do you think that of me? I come from a religious void, there is nothing that would compell me to become a Christian that would not also compell me to become a Hindu. There is no empirical evidence of a God, there is only the fortress of relative rational people have built around themselves. If God popped up in the sky, then all would be clear, but he hasn't. As for the prophecies, an astrologer can claim with the utmost certainty that the stars are accurate in their prophecies. A follower of Nostradamus can make the same claim. They believe it to be so, and it becomes so. Men have been cured of their ailments with only a sugar pill, believing it to be medicine, that is the power of the mind.
You are correct, Truth doesn't sell. Man does not like to be told that he is not god, yet that is exactly what the Bible states, and why Christ was killed.
This works inversely. You will not think outside the box, because if you do, the world as you've defined in your mind, it falls apart.
This works inversely. You will not think outside the box, because if you do, the world as you've defined in your mind, it falls apart.
Is there thought outside the box?
Cheers !
Maybe that's not the best term, too limited.
For that sake of this argument, "the box" is our own relative definition of truth, that we seem to unaware of by default.
For that sake of this argument, "the box" is our own relative definition of truth, that we seem to unaware of by default.
Some might argue that thought is fragmentation, fear, memory, the past, dead. In such a case it's not so much a matter of thinking in or out of the box, but a question of whether it is possible for thought to end and something else happen.
MB:
<< I think what we have here is the problem that arises when we think of truth as something you can say, like the words in the Bible. They may be true, but in what way they are true, to whom that truth was relevant, how to apply it, and a host of other techicalities get easily lost when we become literal and for the reason that truth is a state of awareness, not a formula. As soon as a question is asked, "Speak to us of self knowledge" that which is beyond words can be crystalized into an applicable response. But the answer is not the truth, it is a finger point to the truth. The answer doesn't mean diddly squat if it doesn't bring awareness closer to The Awareness, the awareness that fuses the lover and the beloved inseparably. >>
Good munching.. True, it's not really the answer as Gibran says in end, but the equanimity of perspective.. To discern the distinction of the 'Awareness' that keeps it separate from Totality [The Soul] and inseparble from the beholder [a soul] at the same time..
<< If one thing is wrong than it is all wrong, aye there the rub. What a cage. >>
Petrek is right, you're right, I'm right.. Yet at the same time, we're wrong..
<< Some might argue that thought is fragmentation, fear, memory, the past, dead. In such a case it's not so much a matter of thinking in or out of the box, but a question of whether it is possible for thought to end and something else happen. >>
Quite.. the box symbolizes your eyes of perception. Anything outside that box, you can't see [know], anything inside the box you see [know]. I'm not even in that box.. I am looking at other boxes though..
Petrek:
<< Yah, but, speculating on what might have been is pointless. We must look seriously and honestly at what we are confronted with, anything else is mere speculation and will not solve anything.
Again, I will raise the question with you. If the God of the Bible is the true God, and Creator of the Universe, and everthing in it, what better way to make us aware of His existance than to provide us with a historically, scientifically, and prophetically accurate account of the beginning of the universe to the end with close attention paid to His choosen people the Jews, which He claims are His witnesses to the world that He exists? Do you think that if God came out of the sky every morning saying "I am God, believe in me" that you would then believe in Him? I say you would make up some excuse as to why that isn't really happening, just a mind trick by some powerful people. Likewise, the Bible does not only contain the words, "I am God, this is my word, believe in me or spend eternity apart from me", if it did I for one would not accept it. The Bible however, contains an accurate account of the history of the Jews, as well as numerous prophecies, some of which have been fulfilled, some of which are in the process of being fulfilled, and some which will be fulfilled at a future date. >>
I chuckle when I see that the Christian-God could be discerned as a He..
So what if it contains accuracy? Any enculterated culture can do the same, abeit with a different angle to the approach to Totality. In more ways than one, each mysticism borrows material from each other to some extent..
<< The Bible does tell us of the Biblical God's existance and character, that is not in doubt. But to suggest that the reason I know the Bible is True (it is a matter of true and false, not right and wrong) is because the Bible says so is grosely misleading. I believe the Bible is True, and thus the word of God, not because the Bible says so, but because my senses and ability to reason say it is so. Clearly if the only reason I believed in the Bible was because the Bible told me too I would be a fool, and a severely blind one at that.
If a person is unsure what God meant by a certain passage, then that person would logically turn to scripture to understand what God was saying (to further develop, and grasp the meaning of a passage). Once, however, a person is convinced (correctly or incorrectly, as man's mind is finite and thus prone to err) as to what God meant by a certain passage (assuming it was a passage not easily understood) then one must look to historical texts, and present day news to verify that what was said is true. As, I maintain, along with numerous others, that if one false statement is found in the Bible then it is useless, for it no longer maintains the standard that it has set, that being that the Bible is entirely True. And I have always found that when what I understand to be what God has said conflicts with what reason and my senses tell me, upon further research, it was I and not the Bible that was in error. >>
About your faith: It's called frequency of affinity [ethos]. The frequency is latent potential that lies in your unconscious egos manifesting as you follow this tradition. I've realized for a long time I have no devotion to God, but I do recognize Jesus, but not as the Bible says he is. I rather step outside the realms of tradition and see for myself what is out there.
<< Israel >>
Here's something to munch on: ISis RA ELohim
<< Guessing about the future is pointless. I deal with the here and now. And biblical prophecies are consistant with what is happening around us. >>
Really? Tell me now, I have 5 seconds to live, I pledge no devotion in my heart for God, what will happen to me? Hmm?
EDIT: typos
<< I think what we have here is the problem that arises when we think of truth as something you can say, like the words in the Bible. They may be true, but in what way they are true, to whom that truth was relevant, how to apply it, and a host of other techicalities get easily lost when we become literal and for the reason that truth is a state of awareness, not a formula. As soon as a question is asked, "Speak to us of self knowledge" that which is beyond words can be crystalized into an applicable response. But the answer is not the truth, it is a finger point to the truth. The answer doesn't mean diddly squat if it doesn't bring awareness closer to The Awareness, the awareness that fuses the lover and the beloved inseparably. >>
Good munching..
True, it's not really the answer as Gibran says in end, but the equanimity of perspective.. To discern the distinction of the 'Awareness' that keeps it separate from Totality [The Soul] and inseparble from the beholder [a soul] at the same time..<< If one thing is wrong than it is all wrong, aye there the rub. What a cage. >>
Petrek is right, you're right, I'm right.. Yet at the same time, we're wrong..
<< Some might argue that thought is fragmentation, fear, memory, the past, dead. In such a case it's not so much a matter of thinking in or out of the box, but a question of whether it is possible for thought to end and something else happen. >>
Quite.. the box symbolizes your eyes of perception. Anything outside that box, you can't see [know], anything inside the box you see [know]. I'm not even in that box.. I am looking at other boxes though..
Petrek:
<< Yah, but, speculating on what might have been is pointless. We must look seriously and honestly at what we are confronted with, anything else is mere speculation and will not solve anything.
Again, I will raise the question with you. If the God of the Bible is the true God, and Creator of the Universe, and everthing in it, what better way to make us aware of His existance than to provide us with a historically, scientifically, and prophetically accurate account of the beginning of the universe to the end with close attention paid to His choosen people the Jews, which He claims are His witnesses to the world that He exists? Do you think that if God came out of the sky every morning saying "I am God, believe in me" that you would then believe in Him? I say you would make up some excuse as to why that isn't really happening, just a mind trick by some powerful people. Likewise, the Bible does not only contain the words, "I am God, this is my word, believe in me or spend eternity apart from me", if it did I for one would not accept it. The Bible however, contains an accurate account of the history of the Jews, as well as numerous prophecies, some of which have been fulfilled, some of which are in the process of being fulfilled, and some which will be fulfilled at a future date. >>
I chuckle when I see that the Christian-God could be discerned as a He..
So what if it contains accuracy? Any enculterated culture can do the same, abeit with a different angle to the approach to Totality. In more ways than one, each mysticism borrows material from each other to some extent..
<< The Bible does tell us of the Biblical God's existance and character, that is not in doubt. But to suggest that the reason I know the Bible is True (it is a matter of true and false, not right and wrong) is because the Bible says so is grosely misleading. I believe the Bible is True, and thus the word of God, not because the Bible says so, but because my senses and ability to reason say it is so. Clearly if the only reason I believed in the Bible was because the Bible told me too I would be a fool, and a severely blind one at that.
If a person is unsure what God meant by a certain passage, then that person would logically turn to scripture to understand what God was saying (to further develop, and grasp the meaning of a passage). Once, however, a person is convinced (correctly or incorrectly, as man's mind is finite and thus prone to err) as to what God meant by a certain passage (assuming it was a passage not easily understood) then one must look to historical texts, and present day news to verify that what was said is true. As, I maintain, along with numerous others, that if one false statement is found in the Bible then it is useless, for it no longer maintains the standard that it has set, that being that the Bible is entirely True. And I have always found that when what I understand to be what God has said conflicts with what reason and my senses tell me, upon further research, it was I and not the Bible that was in error. >>
About your faith: It's called frequency of affinity [ethos]. The frequency is latent potential that lies in your unconscious egos manifesting as you follow this tradition. I've realized for a long time I have no devotion to God, but I do recognize Jesus, but not as the Bible says he is. I rather step outside the realms of tradition and see for myself what is out there.
<< Israel >>
Here's something to munch on: ISis RA ELohim
<< Guessing about the future is pointless. I deal with the here and now. And biblical prophecies are consistant with what is happening around us. >>
Really? Tell me now, I have 5 seconds to live, I pledge no devotion in my heart for God, what will happen to me? Hmm?
EDIT: typos
<< Maybe that's not the best term, too limited.
For that sake of this argument, "the box" is our own relative definition of truth, that we seem to unaware of by default. >>
You're close.. berrry close..
"Why do you think that of me? I come from a religious void, there is nothing that would compell me to become a Christian that would not also compell me to become a Hindu."
Sounds like humanism
"If God popped up in the sky, then all would be clear, but he hasn't."
As far as I'm concerned that in itself would not constitute proof. Nor would it answer the many questions that would arrise, which the Bible does answer.
"As for the prophecies, an astrologer can claim with the utmost certainty that the stars are accurate in their prophecies. A follower of Nostradamus can make the same claim. They believe it to be so, and it becomes so."
Just because someone can make a claim doesn't in itself mean that claim is valid. EVIDENCE and LOGIC are essential.
"This works inversely. You will not think outside the box, because if you do, the world as you've defined in your mind, it falls apart."
While the box has been unfolded by the others, I would still like to comment. I was not always a Christian, so the world is still the world, it is my beliefs that have changed, not the world I live in.
Sounds like humanism
"If God popped up in the sky, then all would be clear, but he hasn't."
As far as I'm concerned that in itself would not constitute proof. Nor would it answer the many questions that would arrise, which the Bible does answer.
"As for the prophecies, an astrologer can claim with the utmost certainty that the stars are accurate in their prophecies. A follower of Nostradamus can make the same claim. They believe it to be so, and it becomes so."
Just because someone can make a claim doesn't in itself mean that claim is valid. EVIDENCE and LOGIC are essential.
"This works inversely. You will not think outside the box, because if you do, the world as you've defined in your mind, it falls apart."
While the box has been unfolded by the others, I would still like to comment. I was not always a Christian, so the world is still the world, it is my beliefs that have changed, not the world I live in.
"I chuckle when I see that the Christian-God could be discerned as a He.."
How could the Christian God be discerned otherwise?
"In more ways than one, each mysticism borrows material from each other to some extent.."
Granted, because they come from the same source.
"Really? Tell me now, I have 5 seconds to live, I pledge no devotion in my heart for God, what will happen to me? Hmm?"
Take another look at what I said in response to MB.
"Petrek is right, you're right, I'm right.. Yet at the same time, we're wrong.."
We can't all be right and all be wrong-that is illogical-not.
"About your faith: It's called frequency of affinity [ethos]. The frequency is latent potential that lies in your unconscious egos manifesting as you follow this tradition. I've realized for a long time I have no devotion to God, but I do recognize Jesus, but not as the Bible says he is. I rather step outside the realms of tradition and see for myself what is out there."
I'm not entirely sure what you said here, but the fact that you said I am following tradition is what concerns me. Again, I have a personal relationship with God, and try to obey what He says in the Bible. I do not adhere to the traditions of men as do many other "christian" sects, I adhere to the word of God.
How could the Christian God be discerned otherwise?
"In more ways than one, each mysticism borrows material from each other to some extent.."
Granted, because they come from the same source.
"Really? Tell me now, I have 5 seconds to live, I pledge no devotion in my heart for God, what will happen to me? Hmm?"
Take another look at what I said in response to MB.
"Petrek is right, you're right, I'm right.. Yet at the same time, we're wrong.."
We can't all be right and all be wrong-that is illogical-not.
"About your faith: It's called frequency of affinity [ethos]. The frequency is latent potential that lies in your unconscious egos manifesting as you follow this tradition. I've realized for a long time I have no devotion to God, but I do recognize Jesus, but not as the Bible says he is. I rather step outside the realms of tradition and see for myself what is out there."
I'm not entirely sure what you said here, but the fact that you said I am following tradition is what concerns me. Again, I have a personal relationship with God, and try to obey what He says in the Bible. I do not adhere to the traditions of men as do many other "christian" sects, I adhere to the word of God.
"Some might argue that thought is fragmentation, fear, memory, the past. In such a case it's not so much a matter of thinking in or out of the box, but a question of whether it is possible for thought to end and something else happen." I left out "dead" as I was unsure what you meant by it.
Emotion, that is what seperates Men from Angels, and why Man has his whole life to accept Christ and the Angels turned against God once, and their choice was final.
Emotion, that is what seperates Men from Angels, and why Man has his whole life to accept Christ and the Angels turned against God once, and their choice was final.
I'm not even in that box.. I am looking at other boxes though.
I like the way you put that. Although I would say that in order to examine other "boxes", you sort of have to step inside another box. The difference is though, I suppose, that we don't really subscribe to that box, rather we use it as a launching pad of sorts.
I don't care for words, I don't care for labels, they're too limiting. But at the same time, I have no other choice but to use them. When I speak, I have to speak with a certainty (arrogance) that does not really exist, because I'm also floating around with no real box other than the one I have to wear for a particular purpose. Accepting all takes on life, and conversely accepting none, it's a great contradiction (the essence of life?). It's funny if you think about it, how such disassociated people are, on an existensial level, defective components of nature.
I like the way you put that. Although I would say that in order to examine other "boxes", you sort of have to step inside another box. The difference is though, I suppose, that we don't really subscribe to that box, rather we use it as a launching pad of sorts.
I don't care for words, I don't care for labels, they're too limiting. But at the same time, I have no other choice but to use them. When I speak, I have to speak with a certainty (arrogance) that does not really exist, because I'm also floating around with no real box other than the one I have to wear for a particular purpose. Accepting all takes on life, and conversely accepting none, it's a great contradiction (the essence of life?). It's funny if you think about it, how such disassociated people are, on an existensial level, defective components of nature.
Linuxboy etal, for the purpose of the debate should we try to establish what can be considered evidence?
Wow, this thread is really long.
Ok, I think we all agree on one thing, and that is that billions of people could be wrong......either way, either pro or con.
To my way of thinking, it might be a better investment, even if wrong in the end, to live a good life, in the biblical sense. You'd have nothing to lose. If you are wrong, then of course, you die and nothing further comes of it. If you go the other way, and your time comes, you find out you are wrong, then the wrath comes, and you find yourself in that situation.
There are alot of people on earth who have basically nothing. They are impoverished, sick and live in constant misery in the material sense, but yet so many of them are happy. How possible? I think their faith and teachings of their religion give them hope and the way of living of the teachings, which makes them "good people" doing good works. Whether anyone believes or not, most would agree that if everyone lived by the principles of the good book, the world would most likely be a better place.
Ok, I think we all agree on one thing, and that is that billions of people could be wrong......either way, either pro or con.
To my way of thinking, it might be a better investment, even if wrong in the end, to live a good life, in the biblical sense. You'd have nothing to lose. If you are wrong, then of course, you die and nothing further comes of it. If you go the other way, and your time comes, you find out you are wrong, then the wrath comes, and you find yourself in that situation.
There are alot of people on earth who have basically nothing. They are impoverished, sick and live in constant misery in the material sense, but yet so many of them are happy. How possible? I think their faith and teachings of their religion give them hope and the way of living of the teachings, which makes them "good people" doing good works. Whether anyone believes or not, most would agree that if everyone lived by the principles of the good book, the world would most likely be a better place.
compuwiz1, you were the last poster before this one and yet it doesn't show you as the last poster on the thread page. It says Smaqula11 is the last poster, but such a member does not exist. Have you been taken over by a alien?
Well, I don't think logic or evidence can objectively be defined, which has kinda been the underlying point all along. For a slave trader, his evidence that Africans are less than human and deserve to be slaves is that their culture, their language, is not as sophisticated as his. Thereby, him making them slaves proves this theory correct. He has created his own truth...do you think you'd be able to sway him otherwise?
"For a slave trader, his evidence that Africans are less than human and deserve to be slaves is that their culture, their language, is not as sophisticated as his. Thereby, him making them slaves proves this theory correct. He has created his own truth...do you think you'd be able to sway him otherwise?"
Well obviously YES. His belief is based on ignorance not fact, therefore he needs to be educated so that he can make an informed decision.
Well obviously YES. His belief is based on ignorance not fact, therefore he needs to be educated so that he can make an informed decision.
Megatomic
Lifer
- Nov 9, 2000
- 20,127
- 6
- 81
<<
<< Bruin, LOL i thought my thought was scary but yours is worse. People would go nuts. If everything is predetermined, then why even try to succeed? >>
You don't have to believe in God to believe that...nor does believing in God mean that you believe that. >>
This is very true. I am an agnostic "Christian" and I study Taoism, neither of which lead me to believe that my life was predestined. Humanity has a free will after all. It is this free will that guides religious folks to either heaven or hell or whatever afterlives they believe in. I know for a fact that the Christian Bible teaches this and what I have learned of Taoism seems to indicate the same.
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