What if billions of people are wrong?

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krakken

Senior member
Mar 8, 2001
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RE

<<

"...cast into the lake of fire...and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever." Revelation 20:10 KJ Bible

See also John 5:29, Revelation 14:11, and Luke 16:22-24
>>




Well from some research.


John 5:29 Those resurrected are judged according to their deeds during Judgement day, after their resurrection, since Romans 6:7 says the dead have been acquitted for thier sin. This sets out a period of judgement after the appointed time for resurrection. Besides that, it clearly defines a resurrection, a returning from the dead, it wouldn't make sense to resurrect ones and then destroy them for past wicked deeds.

Among other reasons, "the wild beast and the false prophet" and "death and Hades" will end up in what is here called "the lake of fire." As you may easily conclude, the beast, the false prophet, death, and Hades are not literal persons; therefore, they cannot experience conscious torment. Instead, writes G. B. Caird in A Commentary on the Revelation of St. John the Divine, "the lake of fire" means "extinction and total oblivion." This realization should be easily reached, for the Bible itself states about this lake of fire: "This means the second death, the lake of fire."-Revelation 20:14.

For Rev 14:11
The text states that it is the smoke-the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction-that continues forever, not the fiery torment.

For Luke 16:22-24
This is obviously a parable not a literal story. Even so "the rich man" of the parable is spoken of as being "buried" in Hades, further showing it's definition as the common grave.


 

krakken

Senior member
Mar 8, 2001
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Well, I'm done talking about this. I just want to say there has been many good points by people and I've enjoyed imput. Just study the Bible and you'll find the answers. Don't flame me, I know that sounds lame, but i beleive it's true.
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
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Continuing on as per Elledan's post on previous page.

"First of all, neither Matthew nor Luke says or even implies that Joseph was the father of Jesus. On the contrary, both give a clear account of the fact that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. One is entitled to reject the virgin birth of Christ, but it is absurd to justify that rejection by claiming that, in spite of clear statements that Joseph was not the father, Matthew and Luke nevertheless then turn right around and offer a genealogy saying that Joseph was the father.

Let's look at the genealogies. Matthew's carefully calls Joseph "the husband of Mary," not the father. He explains this apparent anomaly: when "Mary was espoused [engaged] to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." He explains that Joseph "knew her not [had no sex with her] till* she had brought forth her firstborn son" (Matthew 1:25;cf. 1:16, 18). In addition, Matthew declares that the birth of Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecy: "Behold, a virgin shall be with child. and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us" (1:23).

Matthew's genealogy is definitely that of Joseph. This is clear because of the use of the word "begat" for each generation, ending with "Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary" (1:16). Though not the father of Jesus, Joseph was the head of the household and funtioned as the "adoptive father." Because the kingly line ran through the males, Joseph had to be of the house of David. Luke's genealogy is just as clearly through Mary. The word "begat" is not used. Luke says that Jesus "was supposed[i.e., imagined]" to be the son of Joseph, who was "of Heli" (Luke 3:23)...That Jesus was born of a virgin meant that He had none of King David's blood, through male descent, in His veins. Therefore, to have a physical relationship to David, it was essential that His mother be descended from David. Consequently, Luke,...supplies the missing information by giving us Mary's genealogy. To assert otherwise is to charge both Matthew and Luke with a stupidity that is clearly contrary to the intelligence and honesty to which their full testimonies bear such clear and convincing witness."

*"Matthew is quite clearly indicating that Mary and Joseph had a normal marriage relationship after the birth of Jesus, thus denying the dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity which was invented some centuries later. This is consistent with both Matthew's and Luke's description of Jesus as Mary's firstborn (Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7), implying the subsequent birth of other children, who often accompanied their mother, Mary (Matthew 12:46; Mark 3:32; Luke 8:20), some of whose names were even recorded for us (Matthew 13:55,56)." Dave Hunt, In Defense of the Faith, (Harvest House Publishers, 1996), p. 89-91.
 

skylark

Senior member
Feb 24, 2001
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krakken:


<< I don't know if skylark is still reading but, it doesn't seem to me that this question was answered accurately by anyone in this forum either.

You are right, this is something that needs to be addressed, something that people tend to forget and beg off with answers about heaven and hell and people judged as good as possible. but the truth is there is no way to tell how a person would re-act unless they get the chance to.
The only says a specific number will go to heaven and hell, the word for hell (in Hebrew and Greek) is translated as the common grave, that is death, nothing, and described as 'sleep' So to say someone would be judged without a chance to get to know the truth is wrong.

The Bible does however talk about a hope for resurrection, that is a raising up of the dead. That is when ones will have the chance to learn about their means of salvation.
THink about it, why would God create humans, tell them to fill the earth, only for them to die and go to hell or heaven. The truth is God will fulfill his purpose, that is for humans to live forever on earth, the problem was that his soveregnty was questioned.
Does that make sense? the whole resurrection thing can be found in the bible, both old and new testament, one example is Abraham, another is Jesus and his miracles, but you really have to study it on your own to get the full picture.
>>



Yeah, I came back.. :) So following your logic, you're alluding there are a couple hundreds of millions swimming in oblivion. Since we looking at the major denominations, I'll bring the entire Buddhist system and practitioners into the picture. I am guessing at a 1,000,000,000+ currently from the East, China eats a big chunk of it. Now basing on what you said, the chances are that a billion+ is going into oblivion. Plus, I haven't even factored in previous generations already passed on since 2500+ years, nor people in the West! That's mind boggling...

Your interpretation is fundamentally different from the others, ranging from gnosticism, renouncing the Bible, God was an alien (I'm serious), to fire and brimstone sermons. Where is the cohesion in your interpretation? Simple answer: it is impossible to define the phemonology of salvation, and death and rebirth as an absolute.

And about Free Will you are implying: Cultures that have passed on and was clueless is not about Free Will. If they were not even informed, nor given the choice of Hell or salvation, that's Free Will?

I have stated before that there are experiential cases [not scientifically proven] that involved the person being able to remember past lives through regression, or spontaneously. The Kagyu lineage, one of the 4 schools in Tibet, claims their original lineage holder has reincarnated from the 1st Karmapa to the present 17th Karmapa. I've met people who have claimed they've remembered their past lives. Heck, I have some people telling me I am one of the original disciple of Buddha! :D

Even though these examples don't prove nor disprove, it is the quintessential element of perspective you haven't account for?

Riprorin:


<< There's a Buddist sect I heard about once who say, 'ours may not be the only religion.

It's exactly that kind of humility that can make religion productive and enlightening.

Sounds rather wishy, washy and unappealing to me. What's productive and enlightening about being clueless?

That probably explains why I'm not a Buddist.

Personally, I'd rather have confidence in my faith.
>>



Now now, Rip, your egoism is showing.. Here's a hint: Humility. Is it that too hard to comprehend? :D



<< As I read the Bible, it seems pretty clear that there's only one way to God. I suppose there are many ways to god.

If I sound uncompromising, it's because the the Christian message leaves little room for equivocation.



<< The basis for faith is ego >>



Actually, I think the basis for faith is a lack of ego. It's a complete surrender.
>>



You just contradicted yourself in the above. To be uncompromising is an attribute of master-ego ideal.

The basics of Christian faith, for all intents and purposes, lack an understanding of the psychology of ego / super-ego / unconscious ego. A manifest of the implicate, which the person in question does not have a full understanding of - nor have acquired the ability to observe it indirectly. That means: At the moment, you don't have the clarity as to why you choose your faith, or why you are attracted to it, or why you disregarded other mysticism as false.

The prevalent psychological undertone I see is: God.. Father.. He.. Benevolent... Wrathful.. I am the only way... The Master... Of the Ego. The theme is so ethocentric. The egocentricity is inescapable in how the environment [entrainment] helps the follower [EGO] enculturates the totality of reality.

Here's what I mean by opposites under Theravadin regarding God -> Master-Ego -> Possessives:

LOVE (Metta)

Love, without desire to possess, knowing well that in the ultimate sense there is no possession and no possessor: this is the highest love.

Love, without speaking and thinking of "I," knowing well that this so-called "I" is a mere delusion.



Love has no progenitor. Free Will and Freedom will be the same.

Or Tao: The Nameless cannot be named. The moment we believe Truth can be spoken, we will not see anything else.

Riprorin:


<< There are a posters on this thread who equate belief in God with ignorance.

Here are some scientists who were men of faith:

Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Blaise Pascal
Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
Kelvin (William Thompson) (1824-1907)
Max Planck (1858-1947)
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
>>



Err.. Einstein was a Deist.

de·ism (dzm, d-)
n.
The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.


Neither was Galileo.. Not sure about Descartes..

 

LordUnum

Golden Member
Jul 3, 2001
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<< Neither was Galileo.. Not sure about Descartes.. >>


Sure about that? ;)

Really a great thread guys. I'm Roman Catholic, but have thoroughly enjoyed reading through the various viewpoints & passages listed here. :)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,737
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petrek, <<MB, think PRIDE. >>

Is there something in particular you think I should be proud of?
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I'm trying to clarify my own thoughts by responding to others. It's hard to gain in enlightenment living in one's own world, going unchallenged.
 

linuxboy

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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When you say that God is the one who creates the Evil that is just NOT the way it is explained in the bible and not what I am saying.

Woah woah woah there my good fellow. If I may:

Isaiah 45:7 I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the Lord, who accomplishes all these things.

and 44:24 This is what the Lord, your protector, says, the one who formed you in the womb: "I am the Lord, who made everything.

When you say that God (albeit the exact context of this is that YHWH, maybe even YHWH SABAOTH speaks to Isaiah) did not create evil, I cannot accept that since the Bible shows this to be erroneous, logic shows this to be twisted (of course you argue free will and human nature led to the fall), and I cannot, subjectively, and experientially, say that God is not evil. To me, everything is God. Alternately, nothing but God.

You claim I have to accept something in its entirety to receive salvation, and I agree with you. Yet when I point out that totality is beyond words and language only hinders that awareness. You claim that the logos/son is meant to point us in the right direction. I agree with that too, that does not mean I must accept the premises or conclusions of your theology.

You also claim that due to free will, sin exists and must exist for there to be perfection. I kinda agree with that since one must be dually polar at the extremes to be perfect. But in that case, God did create evil. I don't say that this limits perfection but it does signify an end to that summum bonum notion or its interpretation in human terms and social/cultural conditioning. Absolute goodness encompasses evil. God is evil. The only Satan is ourselves and when we choose to stray from God, we sin, thus being evil. Scripture does say that God does not tempt, but isn't this placing a limit on totality? I cannot do that because, just as you said, I need to accept it in its entirety to be saved. And I am ultimately only concerned with salvation, if that. A doctrine accepted in totality gives me nothing but acceptance of a doctrine. I must go deeper.

I still maintain there is nothing but God and everything is God. Moreover, God is love.

Err.. Einstein was a Deist.

About the only claim Einstein made was that he believed in Spinoza's God. Spinoza's god was pantheistic and geometric. Not exactly mainstream religion... Possibly deist, but I wouldn't go that far. Suffice to say he thought Spinoza's God existed. 'Course the kicker is that Spinoza's considered to be an atheist... :)

To be honest, I kind of forgot what the point of this discussion was.

We're trying to understand what if religion is flase and what if billions of people are wrong. Thus far, my, MB's, and I think Engine's position is that there is a fundamental core and truth which is a psychical fact that is at the heart of religions. We seem to call it love and egolessness.

I also made the point, repeatedly, that everybody is wrong due to the problem of epistemic circularity (if someone is having trouble with this, please ask me to explain it, it's one of those crazy philosophical things). Since that is so, I finally made the long post that in either case, if we show some humility, understand ourselves first, and then others and the world around us, and make some positiove influence in the world by recognizing that fundamental principle that "the love you take is equal to the love you make" (thanks MB, Beatles good), then we will come closer or recognize what it means to be human, without all of the nonsense and prattle logic, culture, society, our own delusions, etc feed into our minds. For a still mind, nearly anything is possible.

Work out your salvation with diligence. (my saying, which sums up just about everything said here)

Cheers ! :)
 

JupiterJones

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Jun 14, 2001
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My purpose is to sort of find some why to reconsile Christianity and atheism, to bridge the gap that separates these worlds to sort of take the best of both so we don't have to put the Christians down as gullible fools or loose the atheists to their absolute rejection of anything spiritual. It's not easy because the Christians are set in their only way blind faith thing, and the atheists reacting to the impossibility of emulating that, reject the whole thing....I think that many, most Christians mistake the nature and purpose of their religion, turn it into a kind of circus and pretty thorougly repell the rest of us. We then throw out the baby with the bath water....I hope to lay a bridge between. We have entered an age, I think, when the exclusive claims of religions are a greater barrier to truth then they are consentrators of faith. I don't think religion can continue with all the bs and increase its appeal. Alternatively, atheism is spiritually empty, devoid even of a whiff of a concealed inner truth. Down that road is the life is empty thingi.

Moonbeam,
Conservative Protestantism is just now coming into its own. Much of the history of the protestant church (since the reformation) has been to recover from the extra-biblical teachings of the Catholic Church, and start from scratch attempting to regain the Faith of the Early Church Fathers. The problem with fundamentalist (and Charismatics) is that there is a certain anti-intellectualism. This is why these groups tend to appeal to the less educated. Evangelicalism is in the midst of an upsurge. I am not talking about the liberal theologians. They have been around for quite a while, with their main impact on the faith being to push fundamentalist into a defensive posture. This is where they have been most of this century. I am speaking of conservative theologians dedicated to the inerrancy of Scripture as specified in The Chicago Statement on Biblical inerrancy and Hermeneutics.

A very good read is The Opening of the Evangelical Mind. This article, written from a more secular standpoint, will give you some good info as to the status of intellectualism among evangelicals.

From 1970-1980 there was a change in evangelical theologians. We finally got away from the German theology that has dominated Protestantism since the Reformation, and right now, some very good work is being done at Seminaries and Divinity Schools around the country. One would think that there would not be much NEW stuff in a 2000-year-old religion. This is definitely not the case. For example, Old Testament studies are shifting to a study of the OT as Canon; a return to the Jewish Bible (The Tanakh), and the use of literary analysis. If you do any research in this direction, then you need to be wary as this term is being misused and applied to critical analysis. A good source for this would be The Old Testament as Narrative by Bar Efrat or The Pentateuch as Narrative by Sailhamer. Both of which are available from Amazon.com.

Your question was about the WHY of Sin (big S) and the WHY of Lucifer's and/or Adams decision to sin (little s). I will have to admit that in the Bible we are given the WHAT but not the WHY. Any explanation as to WHY it happened is going to be speculation. What follows is my personal take, subject to change as I learn more about the Bible.

God created us to enjoy His creation and to have fellowship with Him. He gave us free will so that our fellowship would be by choice, not as a puppet. To this end, Lucifer was created knowing that he would fall and thus be available to tempt Eve and thereby cause Adam to sin. Adam was created without flaw, but with the foreknowledge that he would sin and thereby bring Sin into the world. All the children of Adam and Eve (which includes all of us) likewise make a choice to serve or deny God, based on the Faith that he gives us as a gift and to the extent that he reveals himself to us.

Now, at this point someone usually asks if someone can achieve Salvation without being evangelized, why do we send Missionaries, why do we share out Faith. Would not it be better to leave this up to God? Can't God do a better job without our interference? Both of which are valid questions. Point is, evangelism is an act of obedience for the Christian, as is any good work. When I tithe, I get much more benefit than does my church.
 

hoihtah

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2001
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billions of people can be wrong.

take china for example.
that country has billions of people.. 1/4th of total population.

you can't tell me everything about china is right.
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
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MB, I was responding to this question you posed "an angel decides to become the devil. Why?"

Which incidentally if you were referring to Lucifer, then a capitol D is needed. The Devil refers to Lucifer, whereas, devil small d refers to any fallen angel.
 

skylark

Senior member
Feb 24, 2001
798
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<<

<< That is a good question. But you are missing the point. They chose for a reason, the reason was that they didn't accept that God was sovereign over them. They chose to beleive that there was a consciousness above or to the side of God, being separate, equal; that is not possible.
The deal with being like God and not knowing where God left off and all that, thats a little presumptuous. There is no way you could derive that from the Bible, as the Bible distinctly shows man was created to make decisions on his own . This is clearly shown in the placing of the tree as a test.


I really like this explanation, but here's why I have trouble with it:

Suppose that they did have free will and choice, why in the bloody tarnations would they go outside out perfection? Just because they were curious? What would drive them. In a state of perfection, why would the original Adam move from God?

Same with theodicy. Why in the bloody tarnations would YHWH allow an evil son, or any sort of evil. Is it because those beings supposedly too have free will? Why in the world would THEY go outside of perfection? Because man is, by defintion, eternally at war with the divine? But see, there is no cause for going outside of what is bliss ! An animal in bliss will do nothing and die before making an attempt to move from that state. I know I don't move from what I have faith in and my idea of God since that is REAL and is bliss for me. I don't move, but I suppose the explanation is that I "know" the other side. But I DON'T ave thoughts when there is nothing but God. You see where my trouble is? Rationally it makes no sense. When I examine it by faith, it seems to be false. When I look at it through the eye of the heart, it is also somehow inaccurate.

What am I to do then? I can't accept this notion.

What compels you to accept it as true and justified? The idea of free will?


Cheers ! :)
>>



Again the main hangup for linusboy and moonbeam seems to be WHY adam chose to sin. and again, the BIBLE provides the answer.
Satan lied to Eve, and convinced them to disobey. However, it wasn't just that he tricked them, it's that he promised them something, something that wasn't HIS or thiers, it was God's sovereignty to rule man. He promised to know good and evil, only GOD has the power to decide what is good and bad. THUS this is the main question, sovereignty. Who decides? THe REASON is that Adam disobeyed is because he was selfish and cultivated wrong thoughts, I can't tell you the EXACT reason, the EXACT way in which he decided that it was a good decision to disobey God, but just because he was perfect doesn't mean he couldn't develope wrong thoughts and cultivate his desire to do wrong. If i were to guess, I beleive pressure from Eve and the fact that what Satan promised was essentially independence from God was the start of it.

Does that make sense?
The answer, found in the Bible, doesn't seem to be enough though for some. The problem is that people don't take the bible for a whole, accepting parts of it doesn't work, thats why many religions are messed up, and why people reject it so fast. (religion that is)


Edit: When you say that God is the one who creates the Evil that is just NOT the way it is explained in the bible and not what I am saying.
That is no what is being said at all, God creates creature (spirit and human) and creature decides (because is endowed with free will) that God shouldn't be sovereign, is jealous of the power God has (Satan) and convinces other creatures to rebel at God's sovereignty. There is no temptation that God creates, these are thoughts that the creature (spirit or human, Satan or Adam) has allowed to develop and turn into the sin of disobeying God.
>>



Ok, PastorDon interprets that Adam was made perfect. If Adam has grand thoughts of usurping, that is an imperfect being. A perfect being can have imperfect thoughts is a paradox, not an absolute. Quite confusing?

linuxboy:


<<
About the only claim Einstein made was that he believed in Spinoza's God. Spinoza's god was pantheistic and geometric. Not exactly mainstream religion... Possibly deist, but I wouldn't go that far. Suffice to say he thought Spinoza's God existed. 'Course the kicker is that Spinoza's considered to be an atheist...

To be honest, I kind of forgot what the point of this discussion was.

We're trying to understand what if religion is flase and what if billions of people are wrong. Thus far, my, MB's, and I think Engine's position is that there is a fundamental core and truth which is a psychical fact that is at the heart of religions. We seem to call it love and egolessness.

I also made the point, repeatedly, that everybody is wrong due to the problem of epistemic circularity (if someone is having trouble with this, please ask me to explain it, it's one of those crazy philosophical things). Since that is so, I finally made the long post that in either case, if we show some humility, understand ourselves first, and then others and the world around us, and make some positiove influence in the world by recognizing that fundamental principle that "the love you take is equal to the love you make" (thanks MB, Beatles good), then we will come closer or recognize what it means to be human, without all of the nonsense and prattle logic, culture, society, our own delusions, etc feed into our minds. For a still mind, nearly anything is possible.

Work out your salvation with diligence. (my saying, which sums up just about everything said here)
>>




Thanks for finishing my sentences and clearing the morass of indirection with Einstein. :D


About the fundamental core.... Ideally it can be acknowledge but when you throw ALL, I mean ALL, the food on the table, there are certain foods some people will not like, no matter what. It's pragmatically impossible to cater to everyone. Forget the namby pamby about Love and intellectual smorgasbord in here for moment and.... Imagine, you were there to witness a drunk driver running over and violently killing a 10 year child. Could you still love this driver? What happens if it was your child? Interesting, aye? :p

Yeah, I wasn't kidding about the current billion+ in the East, a reality we are looking at. I would love to see if any of you Christian could say it to my face I'm going to never never land and never coming back? In here, the expression is as real to me as it is in person. If beliefs [Bible] are ultimate and as real to its own beholder, then to the [bible] beholder's eyes, I'm doomed.. It doesn't have to be me, it could be anyone non-Christian. Munch on that periphery of the circle for a bit people.

I don't know if I'm part of that 'circularity'? :D I do my best to actually circle outside it..

You sound like gnostic?


....And about the great thinkers with faith, does it matter? The moment they pass away, their faith matters little. We can never know what thoughts roam in their minds at the moment of oblivion.


 

Chrishuff1

Platinum Member
Jul 25, 2000
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First off, I am a Baptist....and I think that if we ARE wrong, then we have lived a life full of hope, and had a peacefull life, not worrying about anything. Just my thoughts...Don't chew me out :p
 

bandXtrb

Banned
May 27, 2001
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<< not worrying about anything >>

You should start worring, because:

All atheists go to heaven for being brave and trusting their thinking.
All theists go to hell for believing without sufficient reason.

I read this on a webpage that God posted. He also stated that the above supersedes any other religious text.

So, there ya go. Stay with your Bible and be punished in the hereafter. It's that simple.

Sounds silly, doesn't it? Point is, I think this belief is just as legitimate as yours.
 

AGodspeed

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2001
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<< I am an agnostic so i even though i am leaning towards atheism, i can't say that god doesn't exist for certain. So what IF he doesn't? Then billions of people are wrong, misled, mistaken, lost. That would make religion the biggest mistake in the history of humanity. Picture how much trouble we've gone through because of it. Most of it is ancient history, but recent events, such as the attacks of September 11th are spawned by religion (an extreme interpritation of it that is). Imagine how much time Muslims spend praying. Several hours a day, for their entire lives, billions of people. We're talking astronimical numbers here, quadrillions of man-hours wasted. Scary. Just a thought :D >>



A very scary thought indeed. An even scarier thought is that the subject of religion has started more wars (wars of any type) than any other subject matter in known history (except possibly the subject of freedom, but who am I to summarize all the causes of all the wars in human history in a measly couple of sentences. :))
 

PistachioByAzul

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Oct 9, 1999
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If a creature is perfect, it has no free will, the choice of perfection has already been made in every circumstance. Some might even say that to be perfect is to not exist at all (or to transcend space & time).

Since it was brought up in the same note, another question that I've posed before resurfaces. Why does God need/want our validation? You can butcher the words all you want, but in that we are punished for failing to accept his love, that is effectively what it is. This is a trait not of a pure being, but of a man, of a creature with an ego. Is it a coincidence that the Bible was written and interpreted by men many times throughout history. Along the same lines, the way we think of God, as a higher man-type being, contradicts the supposed nature of this omnipotent/omnipresent being.

If god is "God" then "God" is not god. How's that to fry your circuits :p
 

CoolTechie

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Jul 20, 2000
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hmm i read the first second and last page.. too tired to read the rest.... interesting...

i think about that alot... if religion is basically something completely created... it would be a tragedy... i dont believe in god... or really even a god... i believe in an existence... anyways.. i would love to view a society without religion and see how it progressed.. maybe for the better maybe for the worse..

(and on a sidenote for the religous people that say.. even if we are wrong at least we lived moral/peaceful lives or however they want to put it... thats pretty disturbing to me... living day to day on ideas that were manufactured for your belief.. its pretty much sedating yourself with ideas.. and in the end if you only truely get that one existence, i would feel robbed)
 

PistachioByAzul

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Oct 9, 1999
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I read this on a webpage that God posted. He also stated that the above supercedes any other religious text.

Not to validate what Cmin7 may have being trying to do, but this is really the core of the confusion some of us have towards conventional religion, the exclusivity. The ark, the nature of perfection, those are all semantics. Some maybe true, some may not, but they are inconsequential if it all falls apart at it's core. The point some of us I think have been trying to get at, is that religion falling apart when light is shined on it, does not preclude the intention (and some of the feelings people might have for it)behind religion from being valid. But, I think again we're faced with what's on the surface versus what might have really been intended (or could also be us looking into it too deeply, if it's the former it is certainly inspired by genius, even though they lacked the foresight to see that their words would be taken hyper-literally).

To clarify, the superficial intention being "to spread the glory of god", to get into heaven, etc. vs what I think is the allegorical intention, being to proliferate love and understanding on the basis of humility as a result of the realization that a higher power exists of which's nature is beyond us.

typo
 

Mani

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Aug 9, 2001
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<< I think that's always best to consider all points of view and then make an objective decision. I wouldn't rule out a Democrats view of himself nor would I discount out of hand a doctrinal comparsion written by a Muslim, a Buddist, etc. >>



Then I would ask why your study of other religions hasn't gone beyond taking a simple world religions course. I guess I just have trouble grasping with the concept of someone accepting something as absolute truth without even giving other possiblities a real chance.
 

petrek

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Apr 11, 2001
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In re"Well from some research.

John 5:29 Those resurrected are judged according to their deeds during Judgement day, after their resurrection, since Romans 6:7 says the dead have been acquitted for thier sin. This sets out a period of judgement after the appointed time for resurrection. Besides that, it clearly defines a resurrection, a returning from the dead, it wouldn't make sense to resurrect ones and then destroy them for past wicked deeds.

Among other reasons, "the wild beast and the false prophet" and "death and Hades" will end up in what is here called "the lake of fire." As you may easily conclude, the beast, the false prophet, death, and Hades are not literal persons; therefore, they cannot experience conscious torment. Instead, writes G. B. Caird in A Commentary on the Revelation of St. John the Divine, "the lake of fire" means "extinction and total oblivion." This realization should be easily reached, for the Bible itself states about this lake of fire: "This means the second death, the lake of fire."-Revelation 20:14.

For Rev 14:11
The text states that it is the smoke-the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction-that continues forever, not the fiery torment.

For Luke 16:22-24
This is obviously a parable not a literal story. Even so "the rich man" of the parable is spoken of as being "buried" in Hades, further showing it's definition as the common grave."

During a conversation with someone I could truthfully say "I believe in evolution", then further on in the conversation I could just as easily say in all truthfulness "I don't believe in evolution". At first glance those statements appear contradictory, but they are not, as the word evolution has more than one meaning.
In the first statement I am referring to the law of evolution, whereas in the second statement I am referring to the theory of evolution. I could further expound on those statements by replacing the word evolution with the appropriate definitions as per what I believe in and what I do not believe in as it relates to evolution.
Had I have said "I believe in evolution, if by evolution you mean a change in the gene pool", or "I don't believe in evolution, if by evolution you are referring to the theory wherein abiogenesis is responsible for all the plants and animals currently in existance" then the apparent contradiction would not exist.
There are a number of other definitions which further develop the concepts that the term evolution encompasses, some of which I agree with, some of which I disagree with, and still others which I am undecided on as I have not seen enough evidence to conclusively convince me that the definition is true, nor have I seen enough evidence to conclusively convince me that the statement is false.

It is all to easy to find a verse in the Bible that can be used to support a belief. Thankfully it is just as easy (here in America) to look up the verse to ensure that it is being used in it's proper context. Unfortunately however, in this day and age of rampant apostasy, more often than not the verse has been taken out of context or has been taken from any one of the number of perverted versions which in many cases the meaning of the verse in question has been so altered from one version to the next that it becomes more a matter of what one wants to believe as opposed to what God said.

Having said that, here is my reply.

Romans 6:7 is clearly written to those who have accepted Christ as their saviour. Anyone who has accepted Christ has been born again in the Spririt of Christ and thus is dead to sin as Christ died for all sins for all time, so anyone who has accepted Him is freed from sin and thusly from the punishment for sin which is eternal death.
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

John 5:28-29 states "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; thay that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

While it may not make sense to you to resurrect someone unto damnation, that is what the verse clearly indicates will happen. A biblical fact we find support for in Revelation 20:11-15, "And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

And for the believers, "we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ" Romans 14:10 , "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:10.

As for death and hades (hell), yes I would agree they refer to places and not people. But the notion that the beast (Antichrist) and the false prophet do not refer to individuals I would dissagree based on scripture. Revelation 13:16-18 states "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand , or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." (digital angel?) "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." Revelation 19:20

I suppose if Revelation 14:11 was made up of only 11 words, and that was the only time the Lake of fire was being referred to you could interpret it that way but instead let's look at the whole verse, "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Certainly it is illogical to say that the words "they have no rest day or night" refers to nothing, as you contend.

Your suggestion that Luke 16:22-24 is a parable and not a literal story is simply not true. Read Luke 16:19-31. A literal conversation is caried out between Abraham and the rich man, and the beggar is named Lazarus. If it was meant as a parable why specify who is talking and what is said, and why does He not state it is a parable as He does for the other parables?
The passage in fact supports the contention that the torment that will be experienced in the lake of fire is a real and literal torment, "And in hell he (the rich man) lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water , and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." and it also informs us where those that were saved through faith in the coming Messiah where prior to His death and subsequent resurection wherein the blood needed to cover the sins of the faithful was shed in order that they might be in heaven with God.

Please don't hesitate to read the Bible to ensure that what I have stated here is in accordance with the Word of God.

 

petrek

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Apr 11, 2001
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In re"First off, I am a Baptist....and I think that if we ARE wrong, then we have lived a life full of hope, and had a peacefull life, not worrying about anything. Just my thoughts...Don't chew me out"

I won't chew you out, but I will suggest you thoughfully consider what is said in 1 Corinthians 15:13-19 "But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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EngineNr9, I'm taking this:

"Moonbeam, I think that question supports what've you said, and what I've been trying to form into words, which is that God transcends "God", God is nature, and nature knows no bounds. Nature is only that which springs from it. If that makes any sense..."

an putting it with this:

"To clarify, the superficial intention being "to spread the glory of god", to get into heaven, etc. vs what I think is the allegorical intention, being to proliferate love and understanding on the basis of humility as a result of the realization that a higher power exists of which's nature is beyond us."

putting it particticularly with the last part, "of which's nature is beyond us."

to try and get clear on what you are saying.

Are you saying that some rather cleaver dudes invented religion to spread and increase our ability to love by hiding, sort of, the real intent, in a rather sophisticated vehicle?

The more I read your posts, the more I get the feeling that you are struggling to express some kind of something out there in the synthesis of paradox range. Those words aren't getting it, and I got a dog pawing my leg who wants to go out and see the real moonbeams, so maybe they'll have to do for now, but I would like to grasp better what you're saying.

PastorDon, thanks for the reply, no time now for more.

The post to the link on Christianity and Islam was very interesting, especially the fact that they don't believe in original sin, even mentioning something about parents being responsible in a way. Wonder if Freud ever saw that? The kill the heathens stuff was pretty sobering though.

Many loose ends.


 

Athanasius

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Nov 16, 1999
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I will only make three points:

One:

I think the notion that religion was invented to control people and make them obey is egregiously out of touch with human nature. That man's religious tendencies have made him vulnerable to control by authoritarian reliigons is more easily substantiated. But religion is not born out of this. The religious tendency is a pre-existing condition that makes abuse of religion possible. The principle here is abusus non tollit usum: "The abuse does not abolish the use."

Relgion is born out of a sense of awe and wonder. The trousered ape does not look up at the sky and wonder. The reasoning man does. The power of reason and the power of awe coexist (as far as we can tell) uniquely in the same creature. If reasoning is the product of a mindless universe, why is it stunned by the universe in which it finds itself? If man is the product of an a-moral, a-just system, why is he outaged by the a-moral, a-just system in which he finds himself? Either these a priori tendencies are pure neurosis and man is actually beneath the higher mammals he supposedly evolved from or they are part and parcel of reason itself. If they are part and parcel of reasoning than to jettison them is to move away from reason, not towards it.


Two:

My second point relates to the proposition: "How can a perfect God create imperfect creatures?" I would approach that question tangentially. How does an unchanging, pre-existing Mind/Logos create other minds/logoi to fellowship with and bring into perfect goodness/joy/harmony/blessedness?

We are bound by time, which is in at least one of its fundamental characteristics motion. Motion implies change. But even hardcore materialistic physicists are now speculating that essential reality (the Implicate Order behind all implicate and explicit orders) is non-local/non-physical/non-temporal. Is it possible that one reason the universe exists is to create a place of (at least apparent) separateness from the absolute so that other selves than the absolute self could be created/produced and drawn into the joy/love of the absolute?. Are reasoning selves in the image of the Absolute? It may seem like a huge presupposition, but it matches up well with the current human phenomenom of religious awe, reason/logos, feelings of abandonment, etc.

In other words, people seem unable to reconcile the apparent fact that the Best and Ultimate could produce anything less than the best and ultimate world. But what if this world is simply the necessary and essential step to producing the best and ultimate world?

To love means to love Someone outside myself.
A reasoning, awake self must choose to love something outside itself.
To be loved means to be joined in ecstasy with the Someone who truly loves me.

Does this Universe make those truths attainable for reasoning souls?

I think it does. An a-moral, physical reality is simply the playing field upon which these twin truths can be attained.

Three:

The reasoning mind out of touch with the wondering, awe-filled heart is just as backwards and crippled as the awe-filled spiritist who has no concept of the true physical laws of the universe. But it is the reasoning mind that gives the ability to annihilate life globally.

A man who believes that God is a literal father figure with a white beard sitting on a cloud looking down lovingly on humanity might be closer (in some cases) to ultimate reality than the materialistic scientist who can expose the fallacy of that image with a few mathematical equations.

Who by reducing a painting to the color spectrum of pigments and light can really grasp the meaning of the painting? Granted, the meaning of the painting might vary from observer to observer, but all of them, however contradictory they may appear, are closer to the truth than the one who sees only pigments and physical light.

I have sexual desires. Sex exists in an objective way independent of me.

I have hunger. Food exists in an objective way independent of me.

I have thirst. Water exists in an independent way objective of me.

I have a yearning for transcendent meaning. I am neurotic.



Does anyone see the disconnect here?
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
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Jay, more metaphysics. Great job, Athanasius. I disagree with, well, everything in your last post.