What if billions of people are wrong?

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DSTA

Senior member
Sep 26, 2001
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I've been following this thread with a sarcastic smile on my face for now, but I think Linuxboy has got it right in the end:

"Show some humility, dig inside, help out a friend, don't get drunk to cope and instead call that old friend who may be in need of a smile."

YES! Much better mission statement than any stupid crusade.
 

krakken

Senior member
Mar 8, 2001
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<< That is a good question. But you are missing the point. They chose for a reason, the reason was that they didn't accept that God was sovereign over them. They chose to beleive that there was a consciousness above or to the side of God, being separate, equal; that is not possible.
The deal with being like God and not knowing where God left off and all that, thats a little presumptuous. There is no way you could derive that from the Bible, as the Bible distinctly shows man was created to make decisions on his own . This is clearly shown in the placing of the tree as a test.


I really like this explanation, but here's why I have trouble with it:

Suppose that they did have free will and choice, why in the bloody tarnations would they go outside out perfection? Just because they were curious? What would drive them. In a state of perfection, why would the original Adam move from God?

Same with theodicy. Why in the bloody tarnations would YHWH allow an evil son, or any sort of evil. Is it because those beings supposedly too have free will? Why in the world would THEY go outside of perfection? Because man is, by defintion, eternally at war with the divine? But see, there is no cause for going outside of what is bliss ! An animal in bliss will do nothing and die before making an attempt to move from that state. I know I don't move from what I have faith in and my idea of God since that is REAL and is bliss for me. I don't move, but I suppose the explanation is that I "know" the other side. But I DON'T ave thoughts when there is nothing but God. You see where my trouble is? Rationally it makes no sense. When I examine it by faith, it seems to be false. When I look at it through the eye of the heart, it is also somehow inaccurate.

What am I to do then? I can't accept this notion.

What compels you to accept it as true and justified? The idea of free will?


Cheers ! :)
>>



Again the main hangup for linusboy and moonbeam seems to be WHY adam chose to sin. and again, the BIBLE provides the answer.
Satan lied to Eve, and convinced them to disobey. However, it wasn't just that he tricked them, it's that he promised them something, something that wasn't HIS or thiers, it was God's sovereignty to rule man. He promised to know good and evil, only GOD has the power to decide what is good and bad. THUS this is the main question, sovereignty. Who decides? THe REASON is that Adam disobeyed is because he was selfish and cultivated wrong thoughts, I can't tell you the EXACT reason, the EXACT way in which he decided that it was a good decision to disobey God, but just because he was perfect doesn't mean he couldn't develope wrong thoughts and cultivate his desire to do wrong. If i were to guess, I beleive pressure from Eve and the fact that what Satan promised was essentially independence from God was the start of it.

Does that make sense?
The answer, found in the Bible, doesn't seem to be enough though for some. The problem is that people don't take the bible for a whole, accepting parts of it doesn't work, thats why many religions are messed up, and why people reject it so fast. (religion that is)


Edit: When you say that God is the one who creates the Evil that is just NOT the way it is explained in the bible and not what I am saying.
That is no what is being said at all, God creates creature (spirit and human) and creature decides (because is endowed with free will) that God shouldn't be sovereign, is jealous of the power God has (Satan) and convinces other creatures to rebel at God's sovereignty. There is no temptation that God creates, these are thoughts that the creature (spirit or human, Satan or Adam) has allowed to develop and turn into the sin of disobeying God.
 

krakken

Senior member
Mar 8, 2001
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<< I guess I can fess up to a little presumption here and there, krakken. >>



I appreciate the honesty. But, how can you say you want to know the answer, when you are already presuming an answer of your own?

I don't want to be argumentative or promote a flame fight, but do you at least see my reasoning?
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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There's a Buddist sect I heard about once who say, 'ours may not be the only religion.

It's exactly that kind of humility that can make religion productive and enlightening.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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To extend the question of perfection creating imperfection further, how could the angel Lucifer become the embodiment of evil?
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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There's a Buddist sect I heard about once who say, 'ours may not be the only religion.

It's exactly that kind of humility that can make religion productive and enlightening.


Sounds rather wishy, washy and unappealing to me. What's productive and enlightening about being clueless?

That probably explains why I'm not a Buddist.

Personally, I'd rather have confidence in my faith.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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The reason I wanted an answer, particularly from PastorDon and linuxboy and finally anybody just to be fair, was because it seemed to me that PastorDon, whose views I don't know, but who seemed, I thought, to displan both considerable intelligence and openness in my brief exchanges with him here in this thread, would give me a thoughtful explanation for the sin thing. I was particularly interested to hear from PastorDon because I figured linuxboy would have an already unconventional and advanced take on that issue and therefor not be too mainstream. My purpose is to sort of find some why to reconsile Christianity and atheism, to bridge the gap that separates these worlds to sort of take the best of both so we don't have to put the Christians down as gullible fools or loose the atheists to their absolute rejection of anything spiritual. It's not easy because the Christians are set in their only way blind faith thing, and the atheists reacting to the impossibility of emulating that, reject the whole thing. I come at the issue of God as an issue of human consciousness. God consciousness is a constant and repetative event in the lives of humans in my opinion. It happens here and there and everywhere. I think it is something we are meant to have, the big secret potential within. I think that many, most Christians mistake the nature and purpose of their religion, turn it into a kind of circus and pretty thorougly repell the rest of us. We then throw out the baby with the bath water. We then get the sanity offended atheists attacking the religious for their pig headedness and around and around we go a slug fest of well intentioned goofs on both sides. By pointing out to atheists that Christianity and other religions can be seen as allegories for a psychological journey that is perfectly, scientifically rational, and pointing out to the religious the fact that the inner truth of religion if not all the exclusive claims, isn't dammaged by that possibility, I hope to lay a bridge between. We have entered an age, I think, when the exclusive claims of religions are a greater barrier to truth then they are consentrators of faith. I don't think religion can continue with all the bs and increase its appeal. Alternatively, atheism is spiritually empty, devoid even of a whiff of a concealed inner truth. Down that road is the life is empty thingi.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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It is the realization that we are all clueless, that is what brings you closer to god. The basis for faith is ego, that is what keeps you from waking up. The arrogance of faith speaks for itself...based on the tone of your post and the fact that you edited it, I would guess that you initially said something a bit nastier. I guess God has certainly done a lot for you.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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My question exactly EngineNr9, an angel decides to become the devil. Why? Beats the tar out of me.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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EngineNr9, the reason for the edit is that I found a typo.

As I read the Bible, it seems pretty clear that there's only one way to God. I suppose there are many ways to god.

If I sound uncompromising, it's because the the Christian message leaves little room for equivocation.



<< The basis for faith is ego >>



Actually, I think the basis for faith is a lack of ego. It's a complete surrender.





 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Moonbeam, I think that question supports what've you said, and what I've been trying to form into words, which is that God transcends "God", God is nature, and nature knows no bounds. Nature is only that which springs from it. If that makes any sense...

Riprorin

As I read the Bible

I would suggest reading the Koran and the Torah for starters, to complement what you already know from the bible :)
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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EngineNr9, I've read Genesis and Exodus but I can't recall if I've read all of Leviticus, Number, and Deuteronomy. I've definitely read parts of the last three books. Probably time for a refresher.

I graduated from a Jesuit college and even though I was a chemistry major I had to take a course in world religion. It was along time ago and to be frank, I don't recall much about Islam. It must not have made much of an impression on me since I've never felt compelled to read the Koran.

Anyway, I found a site that compares the Bible and the Koran that's pretty interesting:

The Bible vs. The Koran

 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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There are a posters on this thread who equate belief in God with ignorance.

Here are some scientists who were men of faith:

Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Blaise Pascal
Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
Kelvin (William Thompson) (1824-1907)
Max Planck (1858-1947)
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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That site doesn't look to be very objective, the author is a flaming Christian.

The point is to read into other religions with an open mind, not just read into them but read the source, the scriptures. You can't be certain of anything unless you explore other avenues. To quote moonbeam:

I hope you know the story of the three blind men and the elephant. It's like a carpet said one feeling an ear. No its a pillar said one feeling a leg. It's like a broom said the third as he held the tail.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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EnginNr9, what exactly is a "flaming" Christian?

I didn't research the site so it may or may not be authoritative but why do you discount it just because it was written by a Christian?

You ask me to be open minded when you yourself appear to be close minded. Why the double standard?

I've come to a decision regarding my beliefs and to be perfectly honest, I don't picture myself reading the Koran or any other "holy" book. At this point in my life I have better things to do.

I'm not discouraging anyone from reading any religious document, but for me I'm not at that stage in my spiritual journey.

Regarding belief in God in general, the main argument I've seen on this thread against believing in God is that it is unscientific, illogical, and irrational and that believers are ignorant fools.

Do you really that's going to cause believers to renounce their faith?

If you think I exaggerate, read some of silveronsilvers venemous posts.

{Edited for typos}



 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
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In re"Look, the context of Ecclesiastes 9 is that Solomon is explaining the how important it is to do Gods will right now. Because both wicked and good come to die and the dead cannot do anything, there is no other time to make a name for yourself.

Ps 146:3,4 explains teh same thing, Prais Jah, NOW, because when one dies his thoughts perish. His 'spirit' or life force, like electricity, goes out. He is no longer existing.

Now the quote from Rev, just shows, Lake of Fire is a Destruction, not a torment, Death and Hell are cast into the lake of fire, destroyed.
It is the second death for people in that those cast into the lake of fire have no chance for resurrection."


"...cast into the lake of fire...and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever." Revelation 20:10 KJ Bible

See also John 5:29, Revelation 14:11, and Luke 16:22-24
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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You don't look to a Republican to get an objective view on Democrats. This woman's personal opinions indicate she has something to prove. It tries to compare the Koran to the Bible on the basis that the Bible is the truth.
 

Riprorin

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Apr 25, 2000
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She's simply comparing the doctrinal beliefs of Muslims vs. Christians. The fact that she qotes scripiture gives it some legitimacy. Clearly in some cases as you point out she uses the Bible as datum. I've never read the Koran so I don't know how intellectually honest she's being.

I think that's always best to consider all points of view and then make an objective decision. I wouldn't rule out a Democrats view of himself nor would I discount out of hand a doctrinal comparsion written by a Muslim, a Buddist, etc.

 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
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In re"How can one explain this?

Now, look at this quote:" (quote on previous page)

"First of all, the dates that Bishop Spong and other critics use in this presumed refutation were never by any means certain. Historians did not accept them. It would be foolish to throw away one's confidence in the Bible on the basis of dates which are questionable at best. For example, Will Durant in 'The Story of Civilization, Volume III, indicated that he did not know when Quirinius (another spelling for Luke's Cyrenius) began his governorship over Syria. If Durant, one of the most highly respected of all historians, said the exact date was unknown, I would be suspicious of a critic who, in order to "prove" the Bible wrong, states dogmatically that Quirinius began his reign in A.D. 6!

Furthermore, on the basis of new evidence since Durant wrote his history, as aready noted, other historians such as A. W. Zumpt are convinced that Quirinius was governor over Syria twice, the first time from at least as early as 4 B.C. That governorship ended in A.D.1. John Elder believes Quirinius'first time as governor began as early as 7 B.C.[John Elder, Prophets, Idols and Diggers (Bobbs-Merrill, 1960), p. 160.] Christ's birth, of course, had to be no later than 4 B.C.., which would have been when Quirinius was governor the first time, exactly as Luke states.

As for the alleged problem with the date of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, the historical evidence for its resolution has been well-known for many years. Yes, Agustus Caesar died in A.D. 14 and that date is therefore generally listed as the official beginning of the reign of his successor, Tiberius Caesar. However, the skeptics are so eager to find a flaw in the Bible that they fail to dig deeply enough to discover the perfectly sound reason for an earlier date.

In actual fact, Tiberius, though technically not yet the Caesar, had already begun to rule the empire some years before Augustus' death because the latter was elderly and in poor health. Rebellions had cost the lives of those possible successors closest to Augustus. Left without either aide or successor, Augustus had in A.D. 2 adopted Tiberius as his son and coregent. Subsequently Tiberius had been sent out by Augustus to put down the rebellions and had done a masterful job. Will Durant writes:

'When he [Tiberius] returned in A.D. 9, after five years of arduous and successful campaigning, all Rome, which hated him for his stern puritanism, resigned itself to the fact that though Augustus was still prince, Tiberius had begun to rule.' [Will Durant, The History of Civilization: Caesar and Christ (Simon and Schuster, 1994), Volume III, p.231.]

Counting his rule as having actually begun in A.D. 9, 'the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar' (Luke 3:1) would be A.D. 24-25. If Jesus was born 4 or 5 B.C., just before Herod's death and during the first governorship of Cyrenius over Syria, that would make him 29 years of age in A.D. 24-25, at the beginning of His ministry. Notice that Luke says that He 'began to be about thirty years of age.' Of course, if He was born in 6 B.C., He would have been 30 sometime during A.D. 24,. We don't have precise dates, but what we know certainly confirms the accuracy of Luke's testimony.

The above demonstrates once again how mistaken and deceitfully biased are the wishful criticisms of the supposed scholars such as those of the Jesus Seminar (and apostate religious leaders such as Bishop Spong) who claim that the New Testament cannot be relied upon because it was not written until centuries after the time of Jesus. In fact, the dating Luke gives, which archaeological discoveries took years to verify, could not possibly have been known and recorded with such precision even decades, much less centuries, later, as the critrics insist. It could only have been known to eye-witnesses on the scene at the time, which the Bible writers claim to have been." Dave Hunt, In Defense of the Faith (Harvest House Publishers, 1996), p. 86-87.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Again, it's impossible to see something clearly through someone else's eyes, there will always be bias. In the case, it's pretty blatant. The whole idea is to experience a new take on God through your own eyes.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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To be honest, I kind of forgot what the point of this discussion was.

Just out of curiosity, what drew you to this tread? Are you a seeker or have you determined your path? Other than the fact that you are not a Christian it's not clear what you believe.

I'd be interested to know if it's not to personal.