What if billions of people are wrong?

[NonTechGuy]

trying to prove if god exists or doesn't exist is pointless.

my opinion is that the original purpose of religion was to explain the unexplainable. now that science has explained many things that god used to do, church turned into just a way for a community to come together. whether or not god exists doesn't matter, it is how religion has brought everybody together that matters.

btw im athiest lol

 

[Nemesis77]

Unrelated to the subject but interesting regardless:

What would you think if I told that in ancient Rome there was a religion that was not allowed by the powers-at-be? The savior of that religion (known as "Light of the World") was born on december 25th from a virgin woman. He had 12 followers and he was considered to be the savior of mankind. He was a moral person and performed miracles. He was killed, but he was resurrected. But the power-at-be in Rome didn't approve of their religion, and they were persecuted.

Most of you would say "ah, poor christians. They sure had it tough in ancient Rome".

What if I told you that that religion is Mithraism (the resurrected savior being Mithra) and the persecutors were christians? Only difference between Mithraism and Christianity is that romans were not able to stomp out Christianity, but christians were able to kill Mithraism.

What makes Christianity the right religion and not Mithraism? What right did the christians (who were the "official" religion in Rome at that time) have to persecute mithraists? Christians weren't any better than the romans who persecuted christians.

 

[silveronsilver]

So basically the Christian argument is that Jesus came back to life after death, so he must be the real deal.

And how do we know that Jesus came back to life after death. BECAUSE SOME BOOK SAYS SO!

And how do we know that the book is telling the truth? BECAUSE THE BOOK SAYS THAT IT IS A HOLY BOOK AND EVERYTHING IN IT IS TRUE!

By the same logic, I read last week in the Weekly World News that Elvis came back to Earth as a three-headed alien and is pregnant with JFK's illegitimate love child. The Weekly World News said that the news story was true. Therefore, it must be true.

Here is the moral of the story:

DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ, YA SCHMUCK! ESPECIALLY IF CORROBORATING EVIDENCE IS COMPLETELY LACKING!!!

Oy, religious people really, really piss me off.

 

[NonTechGuy]

only fanatic religous people piss me off. if you have your own beliefs and you don't talk about it then you are OK in my books.
i hate it when people say "God did not intend for this" or "Thank God" and so on

btw im athiest lol

 

[Moonbeam]

<FONT class=ftalternatingbartextlarge><IMG border=0 height=4 src="i/dominant/block.gif" width=1>


linuxboy, you got me curious about the forth element and the Job thing. How to explain the existance of evil in a perfect world is a facination of mine as you probably well know. It's been a while since I thought about Job, back when I was a believer on a banana peal. Seems to me my experience was outrage.


<<<< <I>Elledan, <When looking back at history, one can make an interesting observation, namely that every civilization has known some kind of religion. Since not all of these civilizations knew of each others existance, the logical conclusion is therefore that an ideology like a religion is a necessary part of a developing civilization.>

The comparitive study of mythology indicates that there has been worldwide exchange of information for at least 40,000 years.

Let's assume and save me the effort, that if point one is incorrect, the rest of the theory falls too.

When I said, 'doesn't know and doesn't want to know' I wasn't kidding. The truth is protected by the fact that it is the last thing anybody wants to know.</I> >>

The theory holds. Archeological evidence shows us that not all civlizations could possibly have had contact, direct or indirect.>>

OK Elledan, that was your original statement, my response and your answer to which I replied:

<<Elledan, I got a kick out of your response to my myth statement. I thought I had you with that one. <IMG border=0 src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif"> Little did I know that Archaeology had shown otherwise. Hehehe. Next time I'll keep it simple and tell you your argument is nice, but full of holes.>>

and to which you replied:

<<BTW, Moonbeam, the fossil record has nothing to do with my thesis, only with evolution, which has already been proven to be a fact. The gaps in the fossil record are due to the unpredictable nature of fossilization and the difficulty in finding those fossils. Of many species which once lived, we'll never see a fossil.>>

Now unless I'm completely nuts, you either meant 'BTW SOMEBODY ELSE' or you're confused as to what I meant. Archaeology to me is:
<DD>
The systematic study of past human life and culture by the recovery and examination of remaining material evidence, such as graves, buildings, tools, and pottery.</DD>
and as such has little to do with paleontology or evolution theory.

What I found humorous was that I just laid out there the fact that comparitive mythology shoots your theory of isolation without citing references and you simply dismissed the possibility that I'm right by laying out there in every bit as grand and perfunctory a manner that archaeology says you're right. I was going to reply that, no, I;m right because it says in my Bazooka Bubble Gum wrapper that civilizations have been in contact for ages and that I also saw it in a fortune cookie. What makes me laugh is the futility of arguing with somebody who so casually dismisses one comment with another. Mine was based on some reading in the field of comparitive mythology which traces common myths and contact times far back in time. Would you care to be more specific about what archaeological evidence refers to isolation. The spread of seashells all over the world and various flints too suggests tremendous trade far back in time. The Aboriginies practice the worlds oldest extant religion based on a seven headed serpent. I was looking at a seven headed serpent in the Nasca lines just today. Such examples can be expanded ad nausium.

I hope you know the story of the three blind men and the elephant. It's like a carpet said one feeling an ear. No its a pillar said one feeling a leg. It's like a broom said the third as he held the tail. You seem so comfortable inventing your theories out of your own head without any concern for how they ground in reality and so casual in the say you defend them. Unfortunately with some people, the more you put their feet to the fire, the surer they get their right. Hope you're not like that.
</FONT>

 

[udonoogen]

<< Here is the moral of the story: DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ, YA SCHMUCK! ESPECIALLY IF CORROBORATING EVIDENCE IS COMPLETELY LACKING!!! Oy, religious people really, really piss me off. >>



man, you need to chill out.

evidence is there if you choose to acknowledge it.

 

[udonoogen]

<< only fanatic religous people piss me off. if you have your own beliefs and you don't talk about it then you are OK in my books. i hate it when people say "God did not intend for this" or "Thank God" and so on btw im athiest lol >>



if you knew you could help save someone from lets say death of cancer ... wouldnt you try your best to do it? i don't condone forcing beliefs on people that don't want it. in fact i've found that it kind of turns people away. (i dont know if posting on AT falls under this but i've tried to be as unforceful while defending what i believe to be true)

you must understand where these people are coming from ... they only have the best intentions. the person that knows the cure to cancer but does not share it ... thats the shame. its not completely justifiable but perhaps you can understand in a better light. theyre only trying to help.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< man, you need to chill out.

evidence is there if you choose to acknowledge it. >>



I haven't seen any of that evidence. Like it was said, it goes something like this:

"God exists"
"how do you know?"
"It says so in the bible"
"The bible could be wrong"
"No it isn't"
"How do you know that?"
"It says so in the bible"

Also, all the theories of creatin show that the people whothought them up had already decided that creation is true, and then they proceeded to find "evidence" to support it. Where as the scientist who believe in evolution first found evidence, and then formed a theory based on that evidence. Science and religion are in the opposite ends in this thing: science finds evidence and forms a theory based on that evidence. Religion forms a theory and then proceeds to find evidence to support it. The scientific method is the correct one.

 

[silveronsilver]

<< "God exists"
"how do you know?"
"It says so in the bible"
"The bible could be wrong"
"No it isn't"
"How do you know that?"
"It says so in the bible" >>



BWAHAHAHA

So true, so true.

 

[udonoogen]

science has not proved the non existence of God nor do I think it ever will. science probably will not outrightly prove the existence of God. i don't have a problem with that. faith.

whatever you believe, the evidence for such is either lacking or there. you must have faith and see the evidence if you believe. or you can choose to ignore it. anything can be proven or disproven if one has faith in what one believes.

for myself ... i go out and see trillions of stars in the sky. the fact that i see is another thing. trees, air, the human body. the complexity of each and every thing we live in. i'm breathing. i'm writing. i'm thinking. if we are the product of an evolutionary chain of events that all began with such a simple thing as gravity and dust, i'm impressed. i choose to believe in God. His work in my life and in what I see to be evidence of Him ... is evidence enough for me. for you, it may take more.

i've found that this is a popular topic at AT. so i'll keep my comments minimalistic from now on. less is more and duplicating a thread day after day gets old. =P i would like to again recommend CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" for those of you that enjoy reading logic.

 

[silveronsilver]

<< science has not proved the non existence of God nor do I think it ever will. >>



Nor has science "not proven" the non existence of Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, or the unicorn. Why is this? Because science does not concern itself with hogwash. Also because, logically, it is impossible to prove the non existence of something THAT DOES NOT EXIST ANYWAY.



<< for myself ... i go out and see trillions of stars in the sky. the fact that i see is another thing. trees, air, the human body. the complexity of each and every thing we live in. i'm breathing. i'm writing. i'm thinking. if we are the product of an evolutionary chain of events that all began with such a simple thing as gravity and dust, i'm impressed. >>



Yes, we are the product of an evolutionary chain of events. This is obvious to any clear thinking man. Why you would want to explain the obvious with a completely illogical and nonsensical answer is quite astounding.

 

[classy]

<<

<< "God exists"
"how do you know?"
"It says so in the bible"
"The bible could be wrong"
"No it isn't"
"How do you know that?"
"It says so in the bible" >>



BWAHAHAHA

So true, so true. >>



In answer to you and others questioning the validity of the bible, thats why its called the walk of faith. I know when everything else has failed in people's lives, the belief in Christ made them succeed. I have seen many who were terminally ill be healed when doctors had given them up to die. I know of women who were diagnosed as barren, unable to have children, have babies after trusting in the God of the bible. I have seen business men have complete failures of their busineses only to turn to bibical principles to have them not only be successful again, but grow many times larger. I have seen familys that were completely destroyed for countless reasons turn to scripture and Christ to have their familys restored and be succcessful when all avenues of counseling failed. I have seen lifetime drug addicts come clean after hearing the word of Christ, the bible, preached to them when every known rehab failed. I have seen marriages brought back together again. Crazy people whose minds were restored better than mine or yours. All inspired from one book, the bible. This is what I've seen personally with my own eyes. What do you have to offer that is better?

 

[skace]

I know god exists cuz Eakers is an angel.

(hehe)

 

[Nemesis77]

...And I have heard of people who have had huge personal success, yet they weren't christian. I know cases where terminally ill people are miraculously healed, yet they are not christians. There have been drug-addicts who got away from drugs through their own will-power, not because they accepted Jesus. I have seen religious people fail miserably in their businesses and in their lives. I have seen wife/child-beating men who were religious.

So... What's your point?

 

[classy]

<< ...And I have heard of people who have had huge personal success, yet they weren't christian. I know cases where terminally ill people are miraculously healed, yet they are not christians. There have been drug-addicts who got away from drugs through their own will-power, not because they accepted Jesus. I have seen religious people fail miserably in their businesses and in their lives. I have seen wife/child-beating men who were religious.

So... What's your point? >>



I have no point. Thats the point. I know what I have seen. But you and few others seem to make me and others out to be fools. Why? Whats your point? Who are you? Are you all knowing? Are you god? Who made your opinion supreme? Why do you make fun of people who believe in God? Do you see any make fun of Atheists threads? Is your problem that deep down your afraid that we may be right? That must be it. Or why else would you take your time to even post how silly we are if you got it all figured out that we're wrong? That goes for you and the few others here. If its such nonsense why bother to even continue to post in this thread or any other? But irregardless there is one truth without question we all will come to know, death. We all will die, only then will each one of us come to know the real truth. I know how I believe. What you should be doing is making sure your right in how you believe instead wasting your time making fun of others. And when you die, good luck. Just in case.

 

[Moonbeam]

Clearly, classy, we can conclude that the religion you are familiar with has put some people in touch with some power beyond what they were previously aware of. Whether that potential was dormant or came from an external source is hard to say. It also happens to people of other faiths and otherwise.

The point I would emphasize. if i were up to me Nemesis, is that the sausage that comes out of a giant sausage machine, Christianity, can be similar in quality but different in quantity to the rather smaller sausage machine you describe. You cannot also quantify just how many of those independent events you mentioned did not have some religious exposure during their lives to draw on as resource.

It ought to be obvious that those who are at the end of the line, weak in ego, have the best chance of letting go of their cabbage.

 

[silveronsilver]

<< I have no point. Thats the point. I know what I have seen. But you and few others seem to make me and others out to be fools. Why? Whats your point? >>



The point is that, every time a discussion like this comes up, religious people go around and around in circular reasoning, unable to convince anybody (even themselves) but unwilling to concede the absolute folly of their position.

The point is that people like you sound more and more foolish with every word they utter to bolster their position, yet do not stop for a moment to consider how foolish they sound.

The point is that, if you had even the most elementary education in logic, philosophy & the scientific principle, you yourself would have seen how foolish your current position is, and we would not be having this conversation right now.

 

[Nemesis77]

Am I making fun of christians? I don't think so. What I did was simply point out the logic behind their belief. "bible is the truth because the bible says it's the truth". That's not making fun of anyone, it's a simple, yet accurate, observation.

I have had christians told me that I'm wicked and evil because I don't believe like they do. They have told me that I'm going to hell. I have been judged by christians because of some of my hobbies (Role-Playing Games). And they have tried to convert me. They can say those things to me, but if I say something, I'm "making fun of christians".

I'm a good person. I care for other people (I donate blood, I have organ-donor card and I'm planning to become a bone-marrow donor), I'm kind and helpful. I respect other people and their beliefs (and I expect that they respect mine) and I'm open-minded. But if I still can't go to heaven because I think they way I do, if God doesn't like it, I'm not sure that I want to associate myself with that kind of God. To me, that sounds like though-police.

 

[classy]

<< Clearly, classy, we can conclude that the religion you are familiar with has put some people in touch with some power beyond what they were previously aware of. Whether that potential was dormant or came from an external source is hard to say. It also happens to people of other faiths and otherwise.

The point I would emphasize. if i were up to me Nemesis, is that the sausage that comes out of a giant sausage machine, Christianity, can be similar in quality but different in quantity to the rather smaller sausage machine you describe. You cannot also quantify just how many of those independent events you mentioned did not have some religious exposure during their lives to draw on as resource.

It ought to be obvious that those who are at the end of the line, weak in ego, have the best chance of letting go of their cabbage. >>



Moony, you've lost me there big guy. Can you translate this into plain english for me. I am a little behind here. LOL

 

[silveronsilver]

Tony Robbins has helped more people than Christ in discovering their true potential.

Will you now start believing in Tony Robbins?

 

[classy]

<<

<< I have no point. Thats the point. I know what I have seen. But you and few others seem to make me and others out to be fools. Why? Whats your point? >>



The point is that, every time a discussion like this comes up, religious people go around and around in circular reasoning, unable to convince anybody (even themselves) but unwilling to concede the absolute folly of their position.

The point is that people like you sound more and more foolish with every word they utter to bolster their position, yet do not stop for a moment to consider how foolish they sound.

The point is that, if you had even the most elementary education in logic, philosophy & the scientific principle, you yourself would have seen how foolish your current position is, and we would not be having this conversation right now. >>



Hmmm Bill Gates never graduated from college, but yet he runs the computer world. Mario Lemieux never graduated from high school, but owns a professional hockey team. McDonalds is now worth billions and they started by selling a 29 cent hamburger. People like you told Columbus he would sail off of the end of the earth.

<< The point is that, if you had even the most elementary education in logic, philosophy & the scientific principle, you yourself would >>

realize nothing has make sense to be right. In many cases just like these faith or hope is greater.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< People like you told Columbus he would sail off of the end of the earth. >>



And christians told Galileo Galilei that sun revolves around the Earth .

 

[silveronsilver]

<< And christians told Galileo Galilei that sun revolves around the Earth . >>



BWAHAHAHA

So true, so true.

 

[silveronsilver]

<< Hmmm Bill Gates never graduated from college, but yet he runs the computer world. >>



You don't have to go to school to be educated. You can educate yourself. Bill Gates clearly did.

Besides, he's an atheist.

 

[EXman]

Blah blah blah....

repost of the worst kind