What if billions of people are wrong?

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tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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<< The agnostic miscalculates. He thinks he is avoiding any position that will antagonize anybody. In fact, he is taking a position which is much more irrational than that of a man who takes a definite but mistaken stand on a given issue. >>

That was the most irrational post I've read in a good while. lol!
 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
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nobody believes in god. if you really do then why not kill yourself and go to heaven? obviously nobody really believes in god. its just a huge scam.
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
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<<

<< The agnostic miscalculates. He thinks he is avoiding any position that will antagonize anybody. In fact, he is taking a position which is much more irrational than that of a man who takes a definite but mistaken stand on a given issue. >>

That was the most irrational post I've read in a good while. lol!
>>





eh, agree with tscenter there.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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Look at the empirical evidence. Do you really think that organisims as complex as human beings came about by random chance?

It seems to me that it's much more of a leap of faith to not believe in a creator as it is to believe.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
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<< Look at the empirical evidence. Do you really think that organisims as complex as human beings came about by random chance?

It seems to me that it's much more of a leap of faith to not believe in a creator as it is to believe.
>>

Wow, you've probably never heard about evolution, have you? Biogenesis might ring a bell?

Sure, we're all created by some supernatural force (or multiple), and so are fractals.
 

Kanalua

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2001
4,860
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If they are wrong, then so what.....if they are right, then there a lot of people gonna be screwed!
 

Daxxax

Senior member
Mar 9, 2001
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I posted this once before and I still haven't got a good answer, What I don't understand is the God of the bible is suppose to be all knowing right?? he knows the future and the past right?? So why would he of created us at all if he knew that Adam and Eve were going to Sin and cause the whole earth to go down the sinful path. And not only that but when Jesus died it was suppose to be for our sins. I'm sure the population of the earth at that time was probably 1/10 what it is now maybe even less, why would he wait another two thousand years or more to come back allowing the population of the world to get this big knowing that a good portion of them would goto hell. Think of it this way if you and your spouse were wanting to have a baby but a Doctor said that there is a 70% chance that the child would be born and suffer terrible pain for eternity, pain so bad that he can't even describe it. would you still take the chance of having one?? no way.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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<< Wow, you've probably never heard about evolution, have you? >>



To the best of my knowledge evolution is a theory.

My common sense tells me that the universe did not happen by random chance.

I'm curious why your common sense tells you otherwise.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
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<<

<< Wow, you've probably never heard about evolution, have you? >>



To the best of my knowledge evolution is a theory.
>>

A theory in science is as good as a law.

Evolution is a fact because we can observe it. The only thing we don't know yet are the exact mechanisms behind evolution.



<< My common sense tells me that the universe did not happen by random chance. >>

Don't you mean blind faith? And believe me, the universe didn't form 'randomly'. Far from that.



<< I'm curious why your common sense tells you otherwise. >>

Because I observe and am capable of logic and sound reasoning.

Just because you can not imagine that something occurs doesn't mean that it can not occur.
 

Yeeny

Lifer
Feb 2, 2000
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What amazes me, is how many threads I see on here, where people who don't believe in God try to convince people like me why I should not either. Why do you care what I or anyone else on this planet believe in? Alot of you complain about holier than thou folks trying to preach their babble to you, what makes you any different than them, trying to prove why your non beliefs are right? It doesn't matter, because in the end, we are all dead. We aren't coming back to tell anyone what lies in store for us after death, so arguing about it is just foolish. And please, this doesn't go for all of you, but some of you really need to realise that believing in God doesn't make you weak, and some of us don't do it because we are scared of the alternative. If I die, and there is nothing afterwards, I won't be around to notice anyway, so why be afraid of that? Don't assume all religious people are somehow beneath you in intelligence, and that you are somehow wiser and stronger to "face the truth."
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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<< A theory in science is as good as a law. >>



Wasn't there a scientific theory that the earth was flat?



<< Evolution is a fact because we can observe it. The only thing we don't know yet are the exact mechanisms behind evolution. >>



If species "morphed" into other species, how come there aren't any transition fossils in the fossil record?



<< Don't you mean blind faith? And believe me, the universe didn't form 'randomly'. Far from that. >>



If it wasn't random, doesn't that suggest a designer?



<< Because I observe and am capable of logic and sound reasoning. >>



Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that they are devoid of logic.



<< Just because you can not imagine that something occurs doesn't mean that it can not occur. >>



Agreed.
 

Kanalua

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2001
4,860
2
81


<< A theory in science is as good as a law.

Evolution is a fact because we can observe it. The only thing we don't know yet are the exact mechanisms behind evolution.
>>



Oh....so you can explain the 200-300 million year gaps in evolutionary theory! Wow, it's a wonder you haven't won the Nobel! You must be a genius!

Do you even know what the theory of evolution is?

Once again, if everyone is wrong about religion and God, then who cares, we just die, no loss. If there is a god, and most of the religious types are right...well, that's another bag of beans. If you're gonna choose, it would seem obvious to err on the side of caution. That's the best non-religious answer I've ever heard...
 
Jan 12, 2002
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Look, if you are Christian, you are going to Hell. (The Koran says so.)

If you are Muslim, you are going to Hell. (The Torah says so.)

If you are Jewish, you are going to Hell. (The Bible says so.)

And if you don't believe in any of the three books, you are automatically going to Hell. (All three books says so.)

Therefore, we are all going to Hell. One might as well become an atheist and enjoy life in this world.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,737
6,760
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Elledan, <When looking back at history, one can make an interesting observation, namely that every civilization has known some kind of religion. Since not all of these civilizations knew of each others existance, the logical conclusion is therefore that an ideology like a religion is a necessary part of a developing civilization.>

The comparitive study of mythology indicates that there has been worldwide exchange of information for at least 40,000 years.

Let's assume and save me the effort, that if point one is incorrect, the rest of the theory falls too.

When I said, 'doesn't know and doesn't want to know' I wasn't kidding. The truth is protected by the fact that it is the last thing anybody wants to know.
 

linuxboy

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,577
6
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Nice theory, but it's full of holes.

How about this theory:

When looking back at history, one can make an interesting observation, namely that every civilization has known some kind of religion. Since not all of these civilizations knew of each others existance, the logical conclusion is therefore that an ideology like a religion is a necessary part of a developing civilization.


Albeit, it's not the necessary conclusion let alone the sufficient-and-necessary. That is to say, assuming civilization A comprised of individuals SET Q, said civilization will progress only according to individual and unique insight from the deviants who, as MB here has nicely put, "sometimes get it". Thereby, subsets n - xn of SET Q experience similar phenomenon comprising of experience P which contributes to both health (MB's defintion of it) and an awareness of truth. Now A must, by virtue of competition, elevate experience P due to perception of worth of P, thereby A will adopt P. Yet, again, experience P is here is only sufficient for adoption of P, and at the same time, the intrinsic necessity of P by subsets of Q does not in any way correlate to observable phenomenon P->Q since that is not necessary for P->Q and Q->P & P->Q. What I'm trying to say here is "what good is it for a man to gain the whole world but harm his own soul"? A possible explanation cannot claim exclusivity and more efforts should be made at full growth and health, so that we may, as MB claims, "get it".


Moreover, your position does not pose a defeater but I suppose you're going to invoke Occam's Razor in an attempt to prove once and for all that your position has few blind spots.


Because of the fact that religions are in fact very intolerant ideologies (they're based on one or more 'sacred' texts, which are always assumed to contain the truth), they form rigid structures, providing a developing civilization with a set of ethics, laws to judge and punish people and other things which form an essential part of every society. Everyone knows what is acceptable and what is not, therefore people can concentrate on other things, like building houses, creating tools and hunting, farming and keeping cattle.


Here you use so narrowly defined concept of religion that it omits ideas of animism, and what theologians call the primordial truths. Those, BTW, existed before the ossification of societal mores and "advancement" within a civilization and its consequent influence on the human being, especially as expressed by Freud with his superego idea and social behaviorists in terms of learning and cognition theory.



New ideas which do not comply with the text(s) on which the ideology is based are forcefully rejected. This mechanism maintains the order in a society, because if the ideology would be discredited and thefore prove to be false, the society would crumble. Anarchy would reign.



I think you name a valid and obervable phenomenon. Again, this narrowly defined idea does not pose a defeater and I see no compelling reason to accept it as a "better" hypothesis.

Of course, due to Human nature, curiosity always plays a role in Human behaviour, therefore people will still research phenomena and everything else which makes them curious.


Ah, but "human nature" is so tricky. As I've said before, given the absence of self, what is man then? Or to use inclusivist language, what does humanity become if it can be beyond?

The new discoveries will be kept secret by many underground groups, which form a minority. This minority is unable to form a threat to society, but their ideas will be slowly accepted by the majority. If possible they'll be integrated into the ideology.


That again is a likely and quite plausible scenario but does not pose a defeater nor does it help us with the existential dilemma of being.


After many centuries, people will start to realize that the ideology which has been followed blindly by almost everyone for so long is flawed. Some of these will refuse to have anything to do with such ideologies anymore and become a follower of another ideology, which systematically denies everything religions present as being the truth. Others will simply refuse to follow any of these intolerant ideologies, of these some will still keep researching the truth behind what these ideologies say is true, others will remain passive, yet still be open for new ideas, but they won't actively research any ideas presented by the ideologies.


A likely phenomenon, albeit not exclusive.

Some centuries later, depending on the acquired knowledge (curiosity; science), those who still blindly follow any of the intolerant ideologies will become a minority. They won't disappear for a long time, but their influence on society has become almost non-existant.


Another possible outcome.


--

Sounds far more plausible to me.


Ehrm, I may be ignorant here, but how is this exactly an argument against what MB has posted? You claim that MB's theory has holes and seemingly attempt to refute it and all I see is some sort of far fetched idea that is claimed to be obtained through reason without direct objections to both the main argument and its validity and to the soundness of the premises, assumptions, and conlcusions, given logical validity.

I don't see how your idea stands under strict scrytiny and MB's "theory" actually seems to hold up better under Occam's Razor, although we have yet to establish how the decision for complexity or simplicity is made.

Cheers ! :)
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
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<< Look, if you are Christian, you are going to Hell. (The Koran says so.) >>



Will all due respect to Muslims, I'm a Christian and I don't really care what the Koran says.

I'll put my hope in a risen Savior. Mohammed is dead.
 

linuxboy

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,577
6
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When I said, 'doesn't know and doesn't want to know' I wasn't kidding. The truth is protected by the fact that it is the last thing anybody wants to know.

If I may make an additional comment. Whenever someone tries to show up and claim such certainty or at least, psychologically display certainty, I am tempted to take the back of my hand and deal that person with a solid smack on the cheek. Recognize the logical inevitability of circularity and the arbitrariness of selection stemming from the ego-self. With it, the truth is protected. That is a psychical verite. MB wasn't kidding and it so happens that I consider that particular statement to be accurate, especially given empirical psychic objectivities such as beliefs (which I suppose one can ascribe to mental states). It's been said many times on this forum: go deeper.

Cheers ! :)
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<<

<< A theory in science is as good as a law. >>



Wasn't there a scientific theory that the earth was flat?
>>

Where did I say that a scientific theory directly turns into a fact?



<<

<< Evolution is a fact because we can observe it. The only thing we don't know yet are the exact mechanisms behind evolution. >>



If species "morphed" into other species, how come there aren't any transition fossils in the fossil record?
>>

There are many fossils which show such transition phases. Unfortunately, whether we'll find a fossil of a certain species is very, very small, because few invidual animals become fossilized, and even less are discovered. Ever heard the term 'like a needle in a haystack'?



<<

<< Don't you mean blind faith? And believe me, the universe didn't form 'randomly'. Far from that. >>



If it wasn't random, doesn't that suggest a designer?
>>

No, that means that there were some basic laws (of physic) which regulated the process. If there's matter/energy, there are some rules which govern the way they interact.

For example, it was chaos theory which caused the formation of solar systems, and most important of all: suns.



<<

<< Because I observe and am capable of logic and sound reasoning. >>



Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that they are devoid of logic.
>>

Agreed, unless the argument they provide is too stupid for words.



<<

<< Just because you can not imagine that something occurs doesn't mean that it can not occur. >>



Agreed.
>>

 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<< Elledan, <When looking back at history, one can make an interesting observation, namely that every civilization has known some kind of religion. Since not all of these civilizations knew of each others existance, the logical conclusion is therefore that an ideology like a religion is a necessary part of a developing civilization.>

The comparitive study of mythology indicates that there has been worldwide exchange of information for at least 40,000 years.

Let's assume and save me the effort, that if point one is incorrect, the rest of the theory falls too.

When I said, 'doesn't know and doesn't want to know' I wasn't kidding. The truth is protected by the fact that it is the last thing anybody wants to know.
>>

The theory holds. Archeological evidence shows us that not all civlizations could possibly have had contact, direct or indirect.
 

linuxboy

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,577
6
76
Look, if you are Christian, you are going to Hell. (The Koran says so.)

Back this up. From my readings, I got the message that what was really important was islam and the recognition that la illa-ha illah-la. That does not necessarily mean a hell is in store for those who claim an -ism, -am, -in, or other namesake.

If you are Muslim, you are going to Hell. (The Torah says so.)


Well, I don't quite see this as being accurate either. Given the assumption that God promised to bless the child of Hagar, it is inaccurate top claim exclusivity, even if some interpret it as such.

If you are Jewish, you are going to Hell. (The Bible says so.)


I don't see this as accurate either. There was a huge discussion about this some time ago, namely between MB, myself, and one other fellow (I recall Elledan left us rather prematurely). Jesus, in a recount by John, claims that one will enter the Father (presumably heaven is congruent with this notion) through me. What is the me if I no longer am? Furthermore, Paul states, "what business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?"

So I applaud your attempt to claim that the logical solution is an agnosticism or an atheism, I do not consider it to be logical, given a thorough examination of self, the world around me, and particularly the religious phenomena.


And if you don't believe in any of the three books, you are automatically going to Hell. (All three books says so.)

Therefore, we are all going to Hell. One might as well become an atheist and enjoy life in this world.


That is somewhat non sequitur. It seems appealing prima fascie but I have studied these ideas in great depth and seem to think that your answer is personally inadequate and socially undesirable, especially from the point of view of a therapist.

Belief in a book does not provides only necessary conditions for a choice of action. It cannot claim exclusivity, especially when the "book" espouses a method directly contradicting to what you say here. Do not give up learning, but with a humble heart approach your ignorance so that you too may know.

bitterness, while sweet at first, has a nasty aftertaste.

Cheers ! :)
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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linuxboy, I said that MB's 'theory' is full of holes because it's mainly composed of metaphysical components and far-fetched ideas.

It would do nice during a philosophy course, though.
 

linuxboy

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,577
6
76


<< linuxboy, I said that MB's 'theory' is full of holes because it's mainly composed of metaphysical components and far-fetched ideas.

It would do nice during a philosophy course, though.
>>



hehehe. Ok, that's a possibility. Although from what MB has said, I think he really tries to stay away from metaphysics. His position can be explained by a purely materialistic perspective. I think he tries to make the same point I do, that what is important is to "work out your salvation with diligence" and experience instead of thinking one knows something. As far as I can tell, his only metaphysical claim seems to be a rejection of dualism (an assertion I myself feel compelled to make in favor of a bland materialism since I don't exactly like metaphysics as it is too troublesome at times). And still, I have not seen a defeater and don't see how his view is more justified than yours, mine, or anyone else's.

Ceteris paribus, perhaps the reason his claims are far-fetched, is because you've never really been anywhere ;)

Cheers ! :)
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
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Elledan, here's an interesting article concerning the fossil record.

Text

Here's an excerpt:

The following quotations reflect the current state of affairs in paleontology. All of the quotes are taken from the book Evolution: The Challenge of the Fossil Record by Duane Gish, Ph.D. All of the quotes are made by properly credentialed paleontologists and all are evolutionists. None of them are friendly to the model of Biblical creationism. Hence, their statements simply present an honest observation and not an attempt to force the data into a preconceived bias.


Kuhn has remarked, "The fact of descent remains. However, descent beyond the typologically circumscribed boundaries is nowhere demonstrable. Therefore, we can indeed speak about a descent within types, but not a descent about types."


Du Nouy has commented, "In brief, each group, order, or family seems to be born suddenly and we hardly ever find the forms which link them to the preceding strain. Not only do we find practically no transitional forms, but in general it is impossible to authentically connect a new group with an ancient one."


Professor E.J.H. Corner of the Cambridge University botany school was candid enough to say: "I still think that to the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation."

Goldschmidt stated: "The facts of greatest general importance are the following. When a new phylum, class, or order appears, there follows a quick, explosive (in terms of geological time) diversification so that practically all order or families known appear suddenly and without any apparent transitions."


Stephen Jay Gould writes, "The fossil record with its abrupt transitions offers no support for gradual change...." "All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt."


Gould also says, "The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils."


David B. Kitts writes "Despite the bright promise that paleontology provides a means of 'seeing' evolution, it has presented some nasty difficulties for evolutionists, the most notorious of which is the presence of 'gaps' in the fossil record. Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them...."


Ayala and Valentine acknowledged, "The evolutionary origins of taxa in the higher categories are poorly known . . . . Most order, classes, and phyla appear abruptly and commonly have already acquired all other characters that distinguish them....We are forced to the conclusion that most of the really novel taxa that appear suddenly in the fossil record did in fact originate suddenly.


David Raup, a professor of Geology at the University of Chicago wrote, "We are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn't changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information.... So Darwin's problem has not been alleviated.


British zoologist Mark Ridley is now claiming: "...the gradual change of fossil species has never been part of the evidence for evolution. In the chapters on the fossil record in the Origin of Species Darwin showed that the record was useless for testing between evolution and special creation because it has great gaps in it. The same argument still applies . . . In any case, no real evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist, uses the fossil record as evidence in favor of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation.


Because the evidence of the fossil record so strongly contradicts Darwinian evolution, some paleontologists have proposed an alternative theory called punctuated equilibrium. Their efforts are the result of trying to make an honest effort to combine the actual content of the fossil record with evolutionary theory. Their basic model is that evolution takes place in sudden major steps followed by long periods without change. This model agrees well with the data of the fossil record by intent. However, it has been slow to gain acceptance with most biologists simply because it is inconsistent with what we understand about the manner in which natural selection works. The proposal has even greater problems with information theory, where major new sequences of control information, enzymatic information, and structural information need to be introduced into the genetic code in single-step or very-few-step processes.