What I?ve learned about PC gamers (who aren?t me)

jakobkraft

Golden Member
Jan 21, 2002
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I?m recently getting back into pc gaming after several years and unfortunately, since no one I currently know is a pc gamer ? it?s all PS3s and X-Boxes for these guys -- I?m forced to turn to internet opinion and feedback about certain game issues?
Until this week, when my wife?s cousin paid us a visit. This is a guy who actually had the gumption as well as the mula to recently get himself an Alienware Area-51 gaming laptop. Just days before he showed up, I?d been looking up issues about Gothic 3 and all the stuttering I?d experienced even though game is fully patched and my system is running a QuadCore Q6600@2.40 GHz, 3 GB of memory and an ATI Radeon HD4850 512MB video card. I have Vista Ultimate Edition, 32-bit. The few other games I have installed (Oblivion, WOW, Jericho, The Witcher, GTA 4) run extremely smoothly at max settings. Oblivion stutters once in a while but it?s rare and quite tolerable.
Gothic 3 on the other hand, for me at least, is an unplayable stuttering mess. And it?s not terribly new either. I thought maybe it was a Vista thing (despite the fact I?ve no issues at all with Vista in the four months I?ve been running it, although UAC was annoying during setup) and tried running Gothic 3 in XP SP2 compatibility mode as well as running it with administrative rights (suggestions which I?d read in other forums). None of that helped.
Turns out my wife?s cousin has Gothic 3 installed on his fabulous laptop (as he likes to call it). I asked him to run it for me, so I can actually see an example of Gothic 3 running smoothly.
I wasn?t impressed. Not even a little bit.
While it?s been noted that the beginning of the game is choppier than the latter part of it, this guy?s laptop was showing me a half-hour beginning of contant choppiness that matched my own (it might have even been worse, I couldn?t fully tell).
And the amazing thing was HE COULDN?T see it! I didn?t want to be rude or anything, but I twice asked him if the stuttering bothered him. His answer each time: what stuttering?
And with that, I breathed a sigh of relief as an explanation had been given which was better than anything I?d read so far on this issue. And that is: some players simply DON?T SEE IT. While some people claim, ?It?s YOUR system, YOUR computer, I DON?T have that problem? the fact is they just might be the sort of gamer that doesn?t see a certain kind of stuttering?perhaps if its consistent enough, their eyes just register it as a part of the gameflow or something?
Anyway, I just felt the need to impart this revelation, in case there are other frustrated pc gamers who wonder if they?re alone with certain issues?
cheers!

 

Zenoth

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2005
5,202
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No offense about him not "seeing" the stuttering, but maybe he just doesn't know what stuttering actually is? If he does known then perhaps he can tolerate so much that he just doesn't see the extent of it. The thing is Gothic III seems to be a total mess for a majority while others sometimes claim to run it without any major issues. On a side note I believe that there's a community-made patch around for that game which supposedly "alleviates" (or fixes, I guess) most of the untouched bugs by the developers in their official patches, have you tired it?
 

Stageman

Junior Member
Jul 29, 2008
19
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Yes that subjective aspect is an interesting one. In another forum we talked a good bit about LCD monitors back when they were more in a transitional stage. It became obvious quickly that it was a very subjective topic and for people switching from CRT tech to LCD, they related a wide range of reactions. I remember that for myself my initial reaction was non-plussed but after a conversation I had with an engineer who understood how the eye worked with certain types of monitors, I took note of my own experiences. Those were that my eye fatigue disappeared. Once I was conscious of that aspect, LCD's became my new best friend.

As for consoles, I haven't bought one in ten years. I'm just not interested in getting involved in another platform and that I tend to mostly play MMORPG's with a smattering of single player adventure games, RTS games, and FPS games. Although I don't play FPS's online anymore. Most of them seem to be geared in a way that heavily favors eye-hand reaction time. So once you start getting a bit up in years, you're at a disadvantage even if you study how the physics work in any given FPS game. Plus in many of them, cheats are rampet and or you have to install virtual root kits on your computer and trust others to monitor your software... That doesn't fly with me.

The console games mostly seem to have the adolescent to 25 year old crowd from what I gather via the various forums I post in. Otherwise I don't feel alone for being a PC gamer only, the platform just suits me and my gaming budget just fine.

Cheers
 

jakobkraft

Golden Member
Jan 21, 2002
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Originally posted by: Zenoth
No offense about him not "seeing" the stuttering, but maybe he just doesn't know what stuttering actually is? If he does known then perhaps he can tolerate so much that he just doesn't see the extent of it. The thing is Gothic III seems to be a total mess for a majority while others sometimes claim to run it without any major issues. On a side note I believe that there's a community-made patch around for that game which supposedly "alleviates" (or fixes, I guess) most of the untouched bugs by the developers in their official patches, have you tired it?

I have now - thanks for noting that - but it didn't make a difference.
Eh, it's ok, I still have Shivering Isles to get through and more than half of the Witcher left, which has been pretty great so far.....
 

Foxery

Golden Member
Jan 24, 2008
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The stuttering you are experiencing may fall under the same category as screen tearing (such as from using VSYNCH) and flicker from using low refresh rates. Some people are much less sensitive to these things; also, understanding what they are tends to make you more sensitive to them. Buying anything from AlienWare probably means he falls under the first category.

Plenty of friends have no idea why I have a pained look on my face when I see their computers. I quietly adjust things for them, knowing it will relieve their eyestrain and headaches in the long run :)
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,660
762
126
This happens to me pretty often around here. I notice motion-related irregularities in games more easily than most people and have occasionally gotten into arguments over whether or not a given problem exists, even after I've seen it on several different hardware configurations.

Frame skipping and microstuttering effects in specific game engines are the most common issues that people apparently don't notice but I find blatant and highly irritating. (some examples occur in anything Doom 3 based, the newer NFS games and some UE3 games with a specific setting turned on)
 
Jan 3, 2007
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I know how you feel.. my brother can't tell the difference between 10fps and 30fps, or between a game at max settings and lowest settings. Also, most of my friends and family don't notice flickering on their monitors..

Even in these forums you'll notice people that, for example, don't notice jagginess in their games and therefore don't use anti aliasing.. people just notice things differently.
 

Piuc2020

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
1,716
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There are even people who don't use their native resolution in their monitors and don't even know they can smooth out text with cleartype.

I just got a laptop from a friend to fix up, not only did I find around 1200 virus (literally) but the 1440x900 widescreen laptop was running at 1024x768, at least ClearType was turned on.

It's just the way people use their computers.
 

TridenT

Lifer
Sep 4, 2006
16,800
45
91
Originally posted by: Foxery
The stuttering you are experiencing may fall under the same category as screen tearing (such as from using VSYNCH) and flicker from using low refresh rates. Some people are much less sensitive to these things; also, understanding what they are tends to make you more sensitive to them. Buying anything from AlienWare probably means he falls under the first category.

Plenty of friends have no idea why I have a pained look on my face when I see their computers. I quietly adjust things for them, knowing it will relieve their eyestrain and headaches in the long run :)

Err... You mean with VSync off right? I have tearing with it off but, not with it on.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,660
762
126
In some cases, people who can't see some effect at all will notice it easily if you show them a side-by-side comparison on how it should look. My brother played through Doom 3 without noticing anything unusual, but wondered how he ever missed the frame skipping glitch when I changed some settings and showed him the alternative.

Of course, it depends on the person, and they still might not be able to tell. I've seen quite a few people using CRTs set to 60hz or non-native resolutions on LCDs, who noticed no difference when I changed it for them (and in the latter case, just said that the text is too small and I should change it back).

It might be interesting to see what people think of Mass Effect, which is another game with a weird but correctable motion problem. There is no relevant option in the game itself and you need to go into the game's ini files to fix it, so I'm guessing that most people are getting the issue but don't see it.
 

will889

Golden Member
Sep 15, 2003
1,463
5
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Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
Originally posted by: Foxery
The stuttering you are experiencing may fall under the same category as screen tearing (such as from using VSYNCH) and flicker from using low refresh rates. Some people are much less sensitive to these things; also, understanding what they are tends to make you more sensitive to them. Buying anything from AlienWare probably means he falls under the first category.

Plenty of friends have no idea why I have a pained look on my face when I see their computers. I quietly adjust things for them, knowing it will relieve their eyestrain and headaches in the long run :)

Err... You mean with VSync off right? I have tearing with it off but, not with it on.

 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
Originally posted by: jakobkraft
I?m recently getting back into pc gaming after several years and unfortunately, since no one I currently know is a pc gamer ? it?s all PS3s and X-Boxes for these guys -- I?m forced to turn to internet opinion and feedback about certain game issues?
Until this week, when my wife?s cousin paid us a visit. This is a guy who actually had the gumption as well as the mula to recently get himself an Alienware Area-51 gaming laptop. Just days before he showed up, I?d been looking up issues about Gothic 3 and all the stuttering I?d experienced even though game is fully patched and my system is running a QuadCore Q6600@2.40 GHz, 3 GB of memory and an ATI Radeon HD4850 512MB video card. I have Vista Ultimate Edition, 32-bit. The few ...

I sorta stopped there. All I want to know is ... why? Why would you build a gaming machine then limit yourself to 32 bit and 3 GB of memory? Obviously the 3GB is due to the 32 bit .. so I'll back up. 32-bit new OS.. why?
 

jakobkraft

Golden Member
Jan 21, 2002
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Originally posted by: coldmeat
You have GTA 4 on your pc?

Sorry, my mistake - GTA: San Andreas. The last time I was into pc gaming GTA 3 was one of my newest games, so I kept thinking, like a dummy, of San Andreas as part 4...
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
13,983
3,330
146
The dude bought an alienware computer.

He probably has bose surround sound connected with monster cables.
 

jakobkraft

Golden Member
Jan 21, 2002
1,011
0
0
Originally posted by: TheVrolok
Originally posted by: jakobkraft
I?m recently getting back into pc gaming after several years and unfortunately, since no one I currently know is a pc gamer ? it?s all PS3s and X-Boxes for these guys -- I?m forced to turn to internet opinion and feedback about certain game issues?
Until this week, when my wife?s cousin paid us a visit. This is a guy who actually had the gumption as well as the mula to recently get himself an Alienware Area-51 gaming laptop. Just days before he showed up, I?d been looking up issues about Gothic 3 and all the stuttering I?d experienced even though game is fully patched and my system is running a QuadCore Q6600@2.40 GHz, 3 GB of memory and an ATI Radeon HD4850 512MB video card. I have Vista Ultimate Edition, 32-bit. The few ...

I sorta stopped there. All I want to know is ... why? Why would you build a gaming machine then limit yourself to 32 bit and 3 GB of memory? Obviously the 3GB is due to the 32 bit .. so I'll back up. 32-bit new OS.. why?

A. Because it was free (via work)
B. Because I'd read there are still issues running a 64bit version, even with Microsoft's own software. I figured becoming acquainted with Vista might be headache-inducing enough, and I wanted the transition to be as smooth as possible. Not so patient, or young, as I used to be...
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
Originally posted by: jakobkraft
Originally posted by: TheVrolok
Originally posted by: jakobkraft
I?m recently getting back into pc gaming after several years and unfortunately, since no one I currently know is a pc gamer ? it?s all PS3s and X-Boxes for these guys -- I?m forced to turn to internet opinion and feedback about certain game issues?
Until this week, when my wife?s cousin paid us a visit. This is a guy who actually had the gumption as well as the mula to recently get himself an Alienware Area-51 gaming laptop. Just days before he showed up, I?d been looking up issues about Gothic 3 and all the stuttering I?d experienced even though game is fully patched and my system is running a QuadCore Q6600@2.40 GHz, 3 GB of memory and an ATI Radeon HD4850 512MB video card. I have Vista Ultimate Edition, 32-bit. The few ...

I sorta stopped there. All I want to know is ... why? Why would you build a gaming machine then limit yourself to 32 bit and 3 GB of memory? Obviously the 3GB is due to the 32 bit .. so I'll back up. 32-bit new OS.. why?

A. Because it was free (via work)
B. Because I'd read there are still issues running a 64bit version, even with Microsoft's own software. I figured becoming acquainted with Vista might be headache-inducing enough, and I wanted the transition to be as smooth as possible. Not so patient, or young, as I used to be...

Free is a pretty good reason! You don't really need more than 3GB (unless you're a hardcore PC gamer) yet anyway. So I suppose if you want you can always upgrade to 64-bit (system builders is pretty cheap) and 3+ GB down the road if you so desire. I will say though, as will a number of others on the forum, that I have had 0 problems with 64 bit Vista. Check out the thread where the guy has over 400 games installed and working in Vista 64.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,660
762
126
Another reason why someone might prefer Vista 32 is the ability to use unsigned drivers, which is needed for some hardware monitoring programs and most refresh rate forcing methods to work. Vista 64 does not allow the use of such drivers without some annoying workarounds.
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,922
0
76
He wants his fancy alienware laptop to be so awesome so badly that he tricked himself into believing that there is no stuttering.

I don't think it's a physical limitation like what you're insinuating, I think it's psychological and only applies to those who take immense pride in their systems.

On the other hand, have you considered that maybe your eyes are glitched? :p
 

cheapherk

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2000
3,976
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Originally posted by: Eeezee
He wants his fancy alienware laptop to be so awesome so badly that he tricked himself into believing that there is no stuttering...

I agree. If I spent thou$ands on a gaming laptop, I'd expect it to run as smooth as glass too.