what headphones should I get?

[glen]

To hear stereo, you have to hear the left channel in your left ear AND the right channel minus what is called the head transfer function. In your right ear you must hear the right channel plus the left minus the HTF.

You see, if a noise is made to your right, you hear it in the right ear and the left ear.
However, the sound in your left ear arrives slightly later, and is changed somewhat by being in the auccoustic "shadow" of you head, known as the "head transfer function."

Most recordings are stereo, and will play back in stereo on speakers.
Binaural recordings are "heard" correctly if played back on head phones. They are recorded with 2 mics placed on either side of a large ball, which mimics the HTF. There are very few binaural recordings.

What you need to do to hear stereo on headphones is to use an amplifer which crossfeeeds the left and right and simulates the HTF.


For more detailed information on this go here:
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~ypsilon/80545/Stereofonics.html

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,90965,00.asp

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: RudeBoie

Originally posted by: glen
You can't hear stereo on headphones.
I hate 'em.

What? Where did that idea come from?

Am I crazy, but I know I've had plenty of heard plenty of channel seperation while wearing headphones. In fact, I just tried a sound test right now.

Follow the links I provided, you might find them interesting.

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: NewSc2

Originally posted by: RudeBoie

Originally posted by: glen
You can't hear stereo on headphones.
I hate 'em.

What? Where did that idea come from?

Am I crazy, but I know I've had plenty of heard plenty of channel seperation while wearing headphones. In fact, I just tried a sound test right now.

He must be crazy, in fact the L/R separation drives me nuts on some Beatles tracks and Jazz tracks - must. get. crossfeed.

Again, as I posted above, before anyoen wants to argue this with me, read the information I provided in the 2 links.
I understand that it sounds crazy and not too many folks have heard of the HTF, or understand stereo, but follow the links and you will understand.

 

[mtbiac]

do any local stores sell the Koss KSC-35s? Best buy, radio shack, circuit city, officedepot/max all do NOT have them, only the crap ksc11

help?? going on a trip later today and would really like to pickup a pair!

OR, is there something else comparable in same price range? how are the Sony w.ear headphones?? same design, $29.99 at circuit city...

or, are THE PLUG buds from Koss any good? comfortability is key for me...

 

[Kerouactivist]

I've owned the etymotic ER4s and the Koss KSC-35 among other phones but, I suggest you get the KSC-35 because for what you are wanting they are by far the best bang for your buck, they have the same drivers as the Koss Portapros but, fortunately they do not share their hideous looks. The ety's are uncomfortable to some that can't get over the in ear design, are really expensive but, it sounds like you have ruled them out anyway even though they would definitely stay in your ears just fine.
You can get the KSC-35 from koss right now for a good price (around $30 bucks if I remember correctly)

If you want something of the closed design form, suggest the sony v6's or the Beyerdynamic DT250-80 phones. (these are somewhat bigger i.e less portable but, the sony's do fold up into a pretty small package)
Both of these can be found used for under $100 with the beyers being the more expensive of the two.
I myself prefer the beyers.

I would also think about getting an amp later on if you feel like the headphones are being driven good enough from your source, a Altoids CMOY would be ideal in my opinion. They can be had used for easily under $50 (used) and they are quite small.

Well good luck with your decision

 

[Kerouactivist]

Originally posted by: mtbiac
do any local stores sell the Koss KSC-35s? Best buy, radio shack, circuit city, officedepot/max all do NOT have them, only the crap ksc11

help?? going on a trip later today and would really like to pickup a pair!

OR, is there something else comparable in same price range? how are the Sony w.ear headphones?? same design, $29.99 at circuit city...

or, are THE PLUG buds from Koss any good? comfortability is key for me...

I doubt you will be able to find the KSC-35 in any stores near you.

If I were you I would call around to all the local musical instrument shops and HIFI audio places in your area and maybe try and pickup
the Sennheiser MX500 somewhere, I'm not sure if any of the stores will have them but, it is worth a shot. (I'm not sure some retail stores may carry them).


They cost $20 bucks and are much better than most of the cheaper sony phones and the Koss cheapies other than the portapro and the KSC-35 .

 

[Kerouactivist]

Originally posted by: glen

Originally posted by: NewSc2

Originally posted by: RudeBoie

Originally posted by: glen
You can't hear stereo on headphones.
I hate 'em.

What? Where did that idea come from?

Am I crazy, but I know I've had plenty of heard plenty of channel seperation while wearing headphones. In fact, I just tried a sound test right now.

He must be crazy, in fact the L/R separation drives me nuts on some Beatles tracks and Jazz tracks - must. get. crossfeed.

Again, as I posted above, before anyoen wants to argue this with me, read the information I provided in the 2 links.
I understand that it sounds crazy and not too many folks have heard of the HTF, or understand stereo, but follow the links and you will understand.

I dunno but, the seperation on my Sony CD3000 sounds pretty good to me.

 

[mtbiac]

looks like walmart carries the KSC-50s

are they really that uncomfortable?? I would think that rubber wire would be more comfortable? i know it doesnt hold it as close to the ear as the KSC-35s, but it cant be THAT bad?

 

[glen]

I dunno but, the seperation on my Sony CD3000 sounds pretty good to me.

Separation is NOT stereo.
Read the links.
The problem IS the separation.
You onlt hear left channel in left ear and right channel in right ear.
For stereo, you have got to hear both in each ear.
Stereo work on speakers BEcasue you hear the left speaker in your left ear AND your right ear; you hear the right speaker in the right ear AND the left ear.

 

[xochi]

Originally posted by: Mwilding
I am getting a Dell Axim and, among other things, will be using it to play MP3's. I want to get a decent pair of headphones that are small and portable. Any suggestions?

note - ear buds are out as they don't stay in my ears well...

I have and Axim as well.

one thing i would look for no matter what size or shape is volume control.

the axim is a bit clumsy at that.

 

[glen]

I just thought of an analogy that might help me expalin what stereo is.
You know those 3-D http://www.magiceye.com/ pictures?
Most of the time it just looks like junk. You have to squint and move you head a bit, then suddenly you see the 3D image.
Stereo is just like that.
You have to have the exact spacing and distance.
You can't just have a left and right channel with just teh right timing differences and cross channel information.
Forrtunatley most people have about the same size spacing between the ears or it would not work for all people.

 

[HendrixFan]

Originally posted by: glen

I dunno but, the seperation on my Sony CD3000 sounds pretty good to me.

Separation is NOT stereo.
Read the links.
The problem IS the separation.
You onlt hear left channel in left ear and right channel in right ear.
For stereo, you have got to hear both in each ear.
Stereo work on speakers BEcasue you hear the left speaker in your left ear AND your right ear; you hear the right speaker in the right ear AND the left ear.

I understand what you are trying to say, but music "bleeding" over into other channels doesnt make a recording stereo, it detracts from it. With each channel isolated, you have a more "accurate" reproduction of what the original recording is mixed as.

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: HendrixFan

Originally posted by: glen

I dunno but, the seperation on my Sony CD3000 sounds pretty good to me.

Separation is NOT stereo.
Read the links.
The problem IS the separation.
You onlt hear left channel in left ear and right channel in right ear.
For stereo, you have got to hear both in each ear.
Stereo work on speakers BEcasue you hear the left speaker in your left ear AND your right ear; you hear the right speaker in the right ear AND the left ear.

I understand what you are trying to say, but music "bleeding" over into other channels doesnt make a recording stereo, it detracts from it. With each channel isolated, you have a more "accurate" reproduction of what the original recording is mixed as.

Perfect chanel separation is NOT stereo.

It is not bleeding per say.
It is deliberate time and frequency adjusted.
In your home on your stereo speakers, it naturally works out some of the time. Your left ear is slightly further away from the right speaker. The sound you hear in the left ear from the right speaker is muffled also because your head is in the way. Same with the right ear. You hear the left speak slightly delayed and slightly muffled. Instead of your brain thinking wow 2 similalr sounds ahead and to the left and right, your brain assumes the more likely that it is ONE sound.

Read the links I posted.
Stereo is a psycho accoustic effect that has to do with how our brain and hearing evolved.

 

[Kerouactivist]

Originally posted by: glen

I dunno but, the seperation on my Sony CD3000 sounds pretty good to me.

Separation is NOT stereo.
Read the links.
The problem IS the separation.
You onlt hear left channel in left ear and right channel in right ear.
For stereo, you have got to hear both in each ear.
Stereo work on speakers BEcasue you hear the left speaker in your left ear AND your right ear; you hear the right speaker in the right ear AND the left ear.

I like separation.......but, hey each to their own, I guess in that sense it isn't stereo but, doesn't that boil down to semantics.
I do listen to my headphones with an amp though.....

So would you say that Binaural recordings are best heard on headphones?

 

[glen]

The trouble with headphones is perfect separation.
You have to have a specialized mixer muffle the right channel and delay it slightly, then add it to the left.
and
You have to have a specialized mixer muffle the left channel and delay it slightly, then add it to the right.
Doing that will make the sound jump out from inside your head to out in front of you onto an even plane of sound spanning from right to left.

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: bthorny

Originally posted by: glen

I dunno but, the seperation on my Sony CD3000 sounds pretty good to me.

Separation is NOT stereo.
Read the links.
The problem IS the separation.
You onlt hear left channel in left ear and right channel in right ear.
For stereo, you have got to hear both in each ear.
Stereo work on speakers BEcasue you hear the left speaker in your left ear AND your right ear; you hear the right speaker in the right ear AND the left ear.

I like separation.......but, hey each to their own, I guess in that sense it isn't stereo but, doesn't that boil down to semantics.
I do listen to my headphones with an amp though.....

So would you say that Binaural recordings are best heard on headphones?

Right, a recording HAS to be binaural for you to hear stereo on head phones.
or you can get a specialized amplifier.
most folks have not really heard stereo properly, but once you do, it is liek the magic eye pictures, the image just jumps out at you.

 

[Kerouactivist]

Originally posted by: HendrixFan

Originally posted by: glen

I dunno but, the seperation on my Sony CD3000 sounds pretty good to me.

Separation is NOT stereo.
Read the links.
The problem IS the separation.
You onlt hear left channel in left ear and right channel in right ear.
For stereo, you have got to hear both in each ear.
Stereo work on speakers BEcasue you hear the left speaker in your left ear AND your right ear; you hear the right speaker in the right ear AND the left ear.

I understand what you are trying to say, but music "bleeding" over into other channels doesnt make a recording stereo, it detracts from it. With each channel isolated, you have a more "accurate" reproduction of what the original recording is mixed as.

See that is what I thought, it appears that glens sources appear to contradict this though....
I'm not a technical Guru, I'm more of the "That sounds great or that sounds like $hit" Kinda guy.

 

[glen]

Go listen to these binaural recordings WITH HEADPHONES!!!
http://www.noogenesis.com/binaural/binaural.html

You will SEE the image produced.

 

[HendrixFan]

Originally posted by: glen

Originally posted by: HendrixFan

Originally posted by: glen

I dunno but, the seperation on my Sony CD3000 sounds pretty good to me.

Separation is NOT stereo.
Read the links.
The problem IS the separation.
You onlt hear left channel in left ear and right channel in right ear.
For stereo, you have got to hear both in each ear.
Stereo work on speakers BEcasue you hear the left speaker in your left ear AND your right ear; you hear the right speaker in the right ear AND the left ear.

I understand what you are trying to say, but music "bleeding" over into other channels doesnt make a recording stereo, it detracts from it. With each channel isolated, you have a more "accurate" reproduction of what the original recording is mixed as.

It is not bleedign per say.
It is deliberate time and frequency adjusted.
Perfect chanel separation is NOT stereo.
Read the links I posted.
Stereo is a psycho accoustic effect that has to do with how our brain and hearing evolved.

If you have a song with an instrument that pans left to right, the panning is created by lowering the volume on one channel and raising it on the other. The fact that one ear is hearing the sound disappear and the other is hearing it appear creates the "phantom" center where the sound appears to be moving through.

When you have an instrument mixed hard left, if you hear it in your right ear you are losing the intended seperation. Anything that is heard in the right ear is bleeding over into the channel that it was not original mixed in, and therefore not intended to be heard on that ear.

Putting the two together, you can see that the isolation gained by headphones allows for a more accurate reproduction of how the music was mixed. You are trying to make some point based on a few webpages you have read. Ive read both of them and Im not sure which sections you are referring to because they dont seem to support your claims. Im telling you that headphones are the most accurate way to reproduce the image to be what it was intended (mixed) to be.

This is taken from one of your links:

"Similarly, complex surround sound fields can be synthesized from stereo speakers, but the ear isn't always entirely fooled. The realism of the created soundfield will suffer if the listener moves from the "sweet spot" between the speakers (headphones solve this problem) because the delicate balance of cues will be upset. Moreover, the folds of each listener's pinna are different; generic HRTFs cannot exactly match our own psychoacoustic expectations. In PC sound cards, using cross-talk cancellation techniques to improve perceived channel separation cleans up the 3D sound image in two channels, but headphones, with their superior real channel separation deliver a better two-channel experience."

 

[Kerouactivist]

It did sound a little different but, lately I have been listening to crappy bootlegs so......

I already have a headroom amp so maybe that is the difference as far as the stereo recordings go.

The only thing I dislike about excellent heaphones is that they make any bootleg recordings or crappy recorded music sound true=really bad

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: HendrixFan

Originally posted by: glen

Originally posted by: HendrixFan

Originally posted by: glen

I dunno but, the seperation on my Sony CD3000 sounds pretty good to me.

Separation is NOT stereo.
Read the links.
The problem IS the separation.
You onlt hear left channel in left ear and right channel in right ear.
For stereo, you have got to hear both in each ear.
Stereo work on speakers BEcasue you hear the left speaker in your left ear AND your right ear; you hear the right speaker in the right ear AND the left ear.

I understand what you are trying to say, but music "bleeding" over into other channels doesnt make a recording stereo, it detracts from it. With each channel isolated, you have a more "accurate" reproduction of what the original recording is mixed as.

It is not bleedign per say.
It is deliberate time and frequency adjusted.
Perfect chanel separation is NOT stereo.
Read the links I posted.
Stereo is a psycho accoustic effect that has to do with how our brain and hearing evolved.

If you have a song with an instrument that pans left to right, the panning is created by lowering the volume on one channel and raising it on the other. The fact that one ear is hearing the sound disappear and the other is hearing it appear creates the "phantom" center where the sound appears to be moving through.

When you have an instrument mixed hard left, if you hear it in your right ear you are losing the intended seperation. Anything that is heard in the right ear is bleeding over into the channel that it was not original mixed in, and therefore not intended to be heard on that ear.

Putting the two together, you can see that the isolation gained by headphones allows for a more accurate reproduction of how the music was mixed. You are trying to make some point based on a few webpages you have read. Ive read both of them and Im not sure which sections you are referring to because they dont seem to support your claims. Im telling you that headphones are the most accurate way to reproduce the image to be what it was intended (mixed) to be.

This is taken from one of your links:

"Similarly, complex surround sound fields can be synthesized from stereo speakers, but the ear isn't always entirely fooled. The realism of the created soundfield will suffer if the listener moves from the "sweet spot" between the speakers (headphones solve this problem) because the delicate balance of cues will be upset. Moreover, the folds of each listener's pinna are different; generic HRTFs cannot exactly match our own psychoacoustic expectations. In PC sound cards, using cross-talk cancellation techniques to improve perceived channel separation cleans up the 3D sound image in two channels, but headphones, with their superior real channel separation deliver a better two-channel experience."

Right the headphones have the advantage of always staying in the sweet spot, just like the view finders (not sure if kids still have thoses as toys anymore)

BUT!
You lose the HRTF (head related transfer function) and therefore stereo unless the recoring is done to capture HRTF or the sound is mixed properly to do so.
You localize sound depending upon frequency by relative phase between ears in addition to amplitude, so "panning" is crappy unless it includes some time delay.

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: bthorny
It did sound a little different but, lately I have been listening to crappy bootlegs so......

I already have a headroom amp so maybe that is the difference as far as the stereo recordings go.

The only thing I dislike about excellent heaphones is that they make any bootleg recordings or crappy recorded music sound true=really bad

Most Headroom amplifiers have a switch that turns the HRTF simulation on and off, so you can "watch" the image move when you switch it. the circuitry creats a sort of generic HRTF, but everyone's head and ear cannals are slightly different, but most of the time not enough to mess up the effect.

 

[HendrixFan]

Originally posted by: glen

Originally posted by: HendrixFan

Originally posted by: glen

Originally posted by: HendrixFan

Originally posted by: glen

I dunno but, the seperation on my Sony CD3000 sounds pretty good to me.

Separation is NOT stereo.
Read the links.
The problem IS the separation.
You onlt hear left channel in left ear and right channel in right ear.
For stereo, you have got to hear both in each ear.
Stereo work on speakers BEcasue you hear the left speaker in your left ear AND your right ear; you hear the right speaker in the right ear AND the left ear.

I understand what you are trying to say, but music "bleeding" over into other channels doesnt make a recording stereo, it detracts from it. With each channel isolated, you have a more "accurate" reproduction of what the original recording is mixed as.

It is not bleedign per say.
It is deliberate time and frequency adjusted.
Perfect chanel separation is NOT stereo.
Read the links I posted.
Stereo is a psycho accoustic effect that has to do with how our brain and hearing evolved.

If you have a song with an instrument that pans left to right, the panning is created by lowering the volume on one channel and raising it on the other. The fact that one ear is hearing the sound disappear and the other is hearing it appear creates the "phantom" center where the sound appears to be moving through.

When you have an instrument mixed hard left, if you hear it in your right ear you are losing the intended seperation. Anything that is heard in the right ear is bleeding over into the channel that it was not original mixed in, and therefore not intended to be heard on that ear.

Putting the two together, you can see that the isolation gained by headphones allows for a more accurate reproduction of how the music was mixed. You are trying to make some point based on a few webpages you have read. Ive read both of them and Im not sure which sections you are referring to because they dont seem to support your claims. Im telling you that headphones are the most accurate way to reproduce the image to be what it was intended (mixed) to be.

This is taken from one of your links:

"Similarly, complex surround sound fields can be synthesized from stereo speakers, but the ear isn't always entirely fooled. The realism of the created soundfield will suffer if the listener moves from the "sweet spot" between the speakers (headphones solve this problem) because the delicate balance of cues will be upset. Moreover, the folds of each listener's pinna are different; generic HRTFs cannot exactly match our own psychoacoustic expectations. In PC sound cards, using cross-talk cancellation techniques to improve perceived channel separation cleans up the 3D sound image in two channels, but headphones, with their superior real channel separation deliver a better two-channel experience."

Right the headphones have the advantage of always staying in the sweet spot, just like the view finders (not sure if kids still have thoses as toys anymore)

BUT!
You lose the HRTF (head related transfer function) and therefore stereo unless the recoring is done to capture HRTF or the sound is mixed properly to do so.
You localize sound depending upon frequency by relative phase between ears in addition to amplitude, so "panning" is crappy unless it includes some time delay.

With headphones a mix is heard exactly as it is mixed. So a proper mix will sound better with headphones, a "playful" mix will sound more "playful" with headphones, etc. If you want a more "natural" sound that has the ears hearing channels it isnt "intended" on hearing, you are trying to introduce a "flaw" to get the listening experience more "realistic" instead of accurate. If we are talking about accurately reproducing a recording, headphones are the way to go, and the articles you provided say the same thing.

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: HendrixFan

With headphones a mix is heard exactly as it is mixed. So a proper mix will sound better with headphones, a "playful" mix will sound more "playful" with headphones, etc. If you want a more "natural" sound that has the ears hearing channels it isnt "intended" on hearing, you are trying to introduce a "flaw" to get the listening experience more "realistic" instead of accurate. If we are talking about accurately reproducing a recording, headphones are the way to go, and the articles you provided say the same thing.

Sorry, but No.


And I have tried to explain it many times.
Maybe listenign to it will help.

Here are some binaural recordings that you can listen to, but these REQUIRE headphones for you to hear stereo.
http://www.binaural.com/bindemos.html

http://www.noogenesis.com/binaural/binaural.html

 

[glen]

The realism of the created soundfield will suffer if the listener moves from the "sweet spot" between the speakers (headphones solve this problem) because the delicate balance of cues will be upset. Moreover, the folds of each listener's pinna are different; generic HRTFs cannot exactly match our own psychoacoustic expectations. In PC sound cards, using cross-talk cancellation techniques to improve perceived channel separation cleans up the 3D sound image in two channels, but headphones, with their superior real channel separation deliver a better two-channel experience. This type of sound field rendering in two channels is called binaural rendering.

You picked up the part where he says,
"...but headphones, with their superior real channel separation deliver a better two-channel experience"

but

you missed the fact that he was talking about a binaural recording.