What happens when your state has the highest minimum wage in the country?

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

I'm not sure I agree with you there. The link I gave actually has the info on which party controlled the presidency, Senate, and the House at the bottom. Looking at them, I don't really see any pattern at all. Saying Republicans are the party of fiscal responsibility doesn't make that much sense given our current overspending with all branches controlled by Republicans. The same goes for Democrats when you look at the Carter administration.

Saying that Republican congresses are more fiscally responsible doesn't make much sense because Democrat controlled congresses have had surpluses four times over the past 50 years although generally not as high. That's not to say Democrat controlled congresses are necessarily better seeing as how some of our highest deficits have occurred when they controlled congress.

Well, there's not much to disagree with - it's very straightforward. Look at the correlations between the party fo the president and the trend of the deficit.

Carter was the aberration during a historic economic incident following the oil embargo; there are decades of others to compare which fit the pattern.

You're not seeing a pattern because you're looking at the cart, not the horse, such as the democratic congress rather than the republican president Reagan (and Bush 41).

look at the correlations withthe president's party and the deficit trend, outside of the oil anomoly in the 70's, and the patternd are clear following WWII.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

I'm not sure I agree with you there. The link I gave actually has the info on which party controlled the presidency, Senate, and the House at the bottom. Looking at them, I don't really see any pattern at all. Saying Republicans are the party of fiscal responsibility doesn't make that much sense given our current overspending with all branches controlled by Republicans. The same goes for Democrats when you look at the Carter administration.

Saying that Republican congresses are more fiscally responsible doesn't make much sense because Democrat controlled congresses have had surpluses four times over the past 50 years although generally not as high. That's not to say Democrat controlled congresses are necessarily better seeing as how some of our highest deficits have occurred when they controlled congress.

Well, there's not much to disagree with - it's very straightforward. Look at the correlations between the party fo the president and the trend of the deficit.

Carter was the aberration during a historic economic incident following the oil embargo; there are decades of others to compare which fit the pattern.

You're not seeing a pattern because you're looking at the cart, not the horse, such as the democratic congress rather than the republican president Reagan (and Bush 41).

look at the correlations withthe president's party and the deficit trend, outside of the oil anomoly in the 70's, and the patternd are clear following WWII.

What about during the Kennedy administration that is showing an upward trend right after the Eisenhower administration's surplus? Or from '64-'68 during Johnson's presidency (nice upward trend) which was followed by Nixon's surplus in 1969? Sure there was also an upward trend during Nixon but there was another downward trend from 1971 to 1974. I can't really point to any other instances because the only other Democrat presidents were Carter (understandable because of oil embargo) and Clinton which I'll agree gave us a huge reduction in the deficit. Truman was also a democrat but I'm not really sure you can point to him as evidence seeing as he was right after WWII which obviously was going to see a huge reduction in the deficit.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

What about during the Kennedy administration that is showing an upward trend right after the Eisenhower administration's surplus? Or from '64-'68 during Johnson's presidency (nice upward trend) which was followed by Nixon's surplus in 1969? Sure there was also an upward trend during Nixon but there was another downward trend from 1971 to 1974. I can't really point to any other instances because the only other Democrat presidents were Carter (understandable because of oil embargo) and Clinton which I'll agree gave us a huge reduction in the deficit. Truman was also a democrat but I'm not really sure you can point to him as evidence seeing as he was right after WWII which obviously was going to see a huge reduction in the deficit.

I refer you back to the chart I posted for a clearer picture of how those periods fit into the overall national debt:

Chart of debt as % of GDP

As you can see, the debt as % of GDP continued to steadily fall under JFK and LBJ.

I agree with you about the fact that Truman is hard to measure because it was going to drop a lot after WWII. But his budgets set a good starting point to use for comparison.
 

Ayah

Platinum Member
Jan 1, 2006
2,512
1
81
It just increases costs all around. And increases the stuff from other places where stuff is cheaper :p
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
It increases the costs negligibly, and puts more money into the economy, and helps those at the bottom become better consumers.

As for other places having cheaper labor we should be thinking twice about these 'free trade agreements' and put some tarriffs back in place - before the US middle class is so harmed that the ultra wealthy can just buy up the rest of the nation's resources they don't own already at bargain prices and social security has no one to pay the bill.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
It increases the costs negligibly, and puts more money into the economy, and helps those at the bottom become better consumers.

As for other places having cheaper labor we should be thinking twice about these 'free trade agreements' and put some tarriffs back in place - before the US middle class is so harmed that the ultra wealthy can just buy up the rest of the nation's resources they don't own already at bargain prices and social security has no one to pay the bill.

Again, if we're trying to help out the lower income quintiles, it makes much more sense to raise the EITC as that's a lot more precise of a tool than the minimum wage is. Raising the minimum wage is a very imprecise way of wealth redistribution. Many minimum wage earners are teenagers, restaurant workers (relying mostly on tips), and spouses looking for extra income. These people aren't necessarily in households that are below the poverty line.

You may want to read the blog article I posted. It's actually pretty interesting.

As for free trade, protectionism is not good overall. Do the people in say India not deserve a job if they are willing to work their ass off for it even if it might take someone else's job in the US? Why is the person in the United States more important? Is the American somehow more of a person? I personally see a person as a person. If the loss of one American job opens up the opportunity of 2 jobs in India while still be cheaper overall, I see no reason why we shouldn't allow it.
 

kingtas

Senior member
Aug 26, 2006
421
0
0
I'm certain that all of you who oppose raising the minimum wage are worth what you earn.
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
1
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
INCREASE IT ANOTHER 30 CENTS!!!

http://www.lni.wa.gov/WorkplaceRights/Wages/Minimum/default.asp

This is getting out of hand.

$7.93 cents an hour?

What about businesses that are barely breaking even?

Where will the extra money come from?

Only solution is to shut down the small locally owned retailers and let Wal-Mart take over.

More incentives to move jobs overseas!

Hiring/Firing process now becomes more difficult!

Less wage increases for the harder-working higher-up positions!

Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

If they are barely breaking even then they don't deserve to be in business and the state is doing them and the poor employees a favor having them shut down.
so at what point should a small business break even. They may be keeping their costs down to remain competitive.

A business determines what profit margin they want and adjusts the sales costs based on expenses and profits.

You are the one complaining about big business; yet you also are stating that it is OK for a small business to be closed down by the government due to wage increase that are being mandated by the state, not by competitioni.

Seems that your attitudes are hypocritical.

Get rid of all the business (big and samll) and turn the counrty into a welfare state.

Well, who will pay for your welfare benefits?

Oh stop with the Red Herring.

If they were truly being "competitive" they would be in any danger of going under by a 30 cent raise, please. :roll:


posted by someone who obviously has no concept of how to run a business?

you in public office or similar?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Again, if we're trying to help out the lower income quintiles, it makes much more sense to raise the EITC as that's a lot more precise of a tool than the minimum wage is. Raising the minimum wage is a very imprecise way of wealth redistribution. Many minimum wage earners are teenagers, restaurant workers (relying mostly on tips), and spouses looking for extra income. These people aren't necessarily in households that are below the poverty line.

You may want to read the blog article I posted. It's actually pretty interesting.

I'm agnostic on some of the choices on how to help the poor; I neither endorse nor oppose the EITC as an option, as I just don't have the full understanding of the pros and cons I'd need to have that opinion. Frankly, few of us have the expertise to really do so, and there's an infrastructure of experts we rely on to help inform us. My infrastructure has not informed me much of the EITC option.

I tend to be biased against the tax approach as a start, though - the use of the tax system for 'social engineering' seems to me to be not the first way to do things, though I'm in favor of using it in some areas where it makes sense (for example, the home mortgage interest deduction is imperfect - it has an inflationary effect on home prices as an example - but it has good points, such as encouraging home ownership and being a benefit aimed at the middle class.)

One issue is that tax policy is easily changed, and this 'welfare' or 'handout' can be pretty easy to chop anytime, especially in the coming years of tighter and tighter budgets.

I do see some fallacies in the article you listed, though. Putting aside the questionable factual positions, from the effects to the demographics (I posted an earlier link showing things like teens are a minority, and a majority are the primary household income), he neglects to consider that it's not zero sum: the higher wages will create additional spending which will create additional prosperity and economic activity.

He also alleges that raising the minimum wages means that we don't pay for the increase. Of course we do, as wages are built into prices.

As for free trade, protectionism is not good overall. Do the people in say India not deserve a job if they are willing to work their ass off for it even if it might take someone else's job in the US? Why is the person in the United States more important? Is the American somehow more of a person? I personally see a person as a person. If the loss of one American job opens up the opportunity of 2 jobs in India while still be cheaper overall, I see no reason why we shouldn't allow it

I understand this is an ideological tenant for some, but I don't acknowledge all protectionism is bad. 100% of our nation's federal revenue came from it from the founding to the civil war, it's not unknown. The US is a wealthy nation with 5% of the world's population. I see room for balance in how we approach what I see as ourmoral obligation to help the prosper, while not ruining our own situation. We need to think, why are we prosperous? It's a wide combination, some dark reasons involving the expploitation of weaker nations for resources, some more positive, a relatively educated society, and so on.

If we just say, hey, billions of poor, compete now with the 5% in the US, there are some pretty big downsides. You make it sound awfully innocent when you talk about one American worker and two foreign workers, but it's not quite so innocent on a macro level when you talk about devastating results for America, in a world where America as a leader for a political system standing for individual rights and freedom is about to be competing more and more with systems like China.

A person may be a person, but there are bigger issues - a person is also strengthening or weakening one nation or another, for example.

I think we need a much more considered approach to how to transition to the global economy in a way that protects Americans, and tries to help build wealth globally.

What we're doing now is trashing the interests of the US in order to serve the short-term needs of the corporations and countries like China who take our wealth gladly.

'Free Trade' is actually an attack on the very principle of democracy as it's being implemented - all the free trade agreements have provisions which tie elected governments' hands from being able to pass many laws in the interest of their people, if those laws have any harmful effect on the sales of a foreign company. It's an outrage and a move away from democracy to putting the corporations above the people.

If you aren't familiar with the clauses, they of course cannot say the governments cannot pass the laws, but they do say that the governments have to pay any companies who lose sales from a law for the loss, which can easily be many billions. The idea of democracy is saying the government can pass a law saying, for example, "no selling tuna which was gathered with methods that kill millions of dolphins". Normally, end of story - the fishers adopt their methods to comply.

Under the free trade agreements, the foreign fishers have a case to sue our government for the amount of lost sales, and the suit is heard in a secret forum appointed by the corporations, with no appeal, where the law has to be justified in the view of this secret panel - they get a veto over the elected government. So, governments just have to stop passing laws they'd like to pass and democracy, and the good the laws would do, suffer.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,896
7,922
136
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
This is what you get with $2.96hr and Corporations running free.

10-23-2006 Pic Part of China's Yellow River turns red


10-23-2006 BEIJING - A half-mile section of China's Yellow River turned "red and smelly" after an unknown discharge was poured into it from a sewage pipe, state media said Monday

China's cities are among the world's smoggiest, and the government says its major rivers, canals and lakes are badly polluted by industrial, agricultural and household pollution.

Errr, raising minimum wage has a relation to China?s yellow river turning red? If not, then merely saying corporations are corrupt is as relevant to the minimum wage topic as me suggesting the sky is blue.

I?ll go out on a limb here and suggest that, perhaps, raising their costs and slashing their budget is going to give them an incentive to cut other costs such as being environmentally friendly? Then your post might make sense after all.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Again, if we're trying to help out the lower income quintiles, it makes much more sense to raise the EITC as that's a lot more precise of a tool than the minimum wage is. Raising the minimum wage is a very imprecise way of wealth redistribution. Many minimum wage earners are teenagers, restaurant workers (relying mostly on tips), and spouses looking for extra income. These people aren't necessarily in households that are below the poverty line.

You may want to read the blog article I posted. It's actually pretty interesting.

I'm agnostic on some of the choices on how to help the poor; I neither endorse nor oppose the EITC as an option, as I just don't have the full understanding of the pros and cons I'd need to have that opinion. Frankly, few of us have the expertise to really do so, and there's an infrastructure of experts we rely on to help inform us. My infrastructure has not informed me much of the EITC option.

I tend to be biased against the tax approach as a start, though - the use of the tax system for 'social engineering' seems to me to be not the first way to do things, though I'm in favor of using it in some areas where it makes sense (for example, the home mortgage interest deduction is imperfect - it has an inflationary effect on home prices as an example - but it has good points, such as encouraging home ownership and being a benefit aimed at the middle class.)

One issue is that tax policy is easily changed, and this 'welfare' or 'handout' can be pretty easy to chop anytime, especially in the coming years of tighter and tighter budgets.

I do see some fallacies in the article you listed, though. Putting aside the questionable factual positions, from the effects to the demographics (I posted an earlier link showing things like teens are a minority, and a majority are the primary household income), he neglects to consider that it's not zero sum: the higher wages will create additional spending which will create additional prosperity and economic activity.

He also alleges that raising the minimum wages means that we don't pay for the increase. Of course we do, as wages are built into prices.

As for free trade, protectionism is not good overall. Do the people in say India not deserve a job if they are willing to work their ass off for it even if it might take someone else's job in the US? Why is the person in the United States more important? Is the American somehow more of a person? I personally see a person as a person. If the loss of one American job opens up the opportunity of 2 jobs in India while still be cheaper overall, I see no reason why we shouldn't allow it

I understand this is an ideological tenant for some, but I don't acknowledge all protectionism is bad. 100% of our nation's federal revenue came from it from the founding to the civil war, it's not unknown. The US is a wealthy nation with 5% of the world's population. I see room for balance in how we approach what I see as ourmoral obligation to help the prosper, while not ruining our own situation. We need to think, why are we prosperous? It's a wide combination, some dark reasons involving the expploitation of weaker nations for resources, some more positive, a relatively educated society, and so on.

If we just say, hey, billions of poor, compete now with the 5% in the US, there are some pretty big downsides. You make it sound awfully innocent when you talk about one American worker and two foreign workers, but it's not quite so innocent on a macro level when you talk about devastating results for America, in a world where America as a leader for a political system standing for individual rights and freedom is about to be competing more and more with systems like China.

A person may be a person, but there are bigger issues - a person is also strengthening or weakening one nation or another, for example.

I think we need a much more considered approach to how to transition to the global economy in a way that protects Americans, and tries to help build wealth globally.

What we're doing now is trashing the interests of the US in order to serve the short-term needs of the corporations and countries like China who take our wealth gladly.

'Free Trade' is actually an attack on the very principle of democracy as it's being implemented - all the free trade agreements have provisions which tie elected governments' hands from being able to pass many laws in the interest of their people, if those laws have any harmful effect on the sales of a foreign company. It's an outrage and a move away from democracy to putting the corporations above the people.

If you aren't familiar with the clauses, they of course cannot say the governments cannot pass the laws, but they do say that the governments have to pay any companies who lose sales from a law for the loss, which can easily be many billions. The idea of democracy is saying the government can pass a law saying, for example, "no selling tuna which was gathered with methods that kill millions of dolphins". Normally, end of story - the fishers adopt their methods to comply.

Under the free trade agreements, the foreign fishers have a case to sue our government for the amount of lost sales, and the suit is heard in a secret forum appointed by the corporations, with no appeal, where the law has to be justified in the view of this secret panel - they get a veto over the elected government. So, governments just have to stop passing laws they'd like to pass and democracy, and the good the laws would do, suffer.

Here's some quick statistics on minimum wage from the BLS. About 25% are age 16-19 and roughly half are under 25. I don't really know where exactly the EPI got their statistics. They do list the Department of Labor website but the site they do list doesn't give out any statistics.

For the EITC, Wiki actually has a fairly good page on it. One line I found interesting in the article: "By contrast, only 30% of minimum wage workers live in families near or below the federal poverty line, as most are teenagers, young adults, students, or spouses supplementing their studies or family income." Anyway, it really is a much more targeted program than the minimum wage.

Changing the EITC would be no different than changing the minimum wage really. They're both just as easily up for the chopping block but that hasn't happened so far. If the people want to help the poor why can't they do it out of their pockets? With the EITC you get the benefits of the minimum wage (higher income for lower income quintiles) without the drawbacks (slightly higher inflation and slightly higher unemployment).

I don't think Worstall alleged that raising the minimum wage doesn't increase the price of goods. I think that was just him pointing towards Card and Krueger's study and disclaiming it.

On the subject of free trade...I would agree that if we oriented trade policies towards ones that would help us and not hurt other nations much, I would be all for it. That isn't what we do, however. We love to export our subsidized farming goods and also love putting up barriers for imported textiles that poorer nations produce. Do we really need a $0.50/gallon tariff on ethanol imported from Brazil? Do we really need to be subsidizing our cotton industry?

We do need to do something about China. I'll agree with you on that one. I don't think we need to start putting up tariffs, however. I do think we need to threaten that if they keep having their currency undervalued and flooding our country with their exports.

As for the environment, that's obviously an extra cost. Cost externalities are a fairly well known idea in economics. Other countries polluting the environment would have an added cost so a tariff would be justified (still free because their harming of the environment is worked into the price). We could try to push China towards more environmentally friendly business practices. We account for over 1/5 of their exports so we can easily throw our weight around on that issue.