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What happens when a student prank turns into a protest?

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Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,195
71
91
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

"Civil disobedience is the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands and commands of a government, or of an occupying power, without resorting to physical violence."

Were any LAWS broken by the protesters?
Was anyone's safety threatened by the actions of the protesters?
Were the protesters in any way violent?


Instead of punishing them, how about granting them a public forum. Explain the position and requirements upon administration and develop a dialogue. While you're at it, praise them for their initiative and concern, but offer them alternatives to their chosen method of protest that would have been less disruptive while still expressing their concerns in an impacting way.
Maybe the students should have asked for a public forum before setting up a protest or disturbance. In our school that is what the student counsel is for. I'm not saying I fully agree with either side, but since they caused a disturbance on that scale the administrator has to respond or else he / she loses authority with the students, when that happens you have anarchy. School can mirror the real world to an extent, but it has to have more structure or the students won't learn, that is unless they are mature enough to operate without the structure.
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,923
0
0
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
This is what's wrong with America today. People finally stop being sheep, stand up for their rights, exercise proper civil disobedience, and they're punished for it by ignorant asses who don't deserve their position. To see this kind of leadership and initiative in middle school kids is AWESOME.

These kids should be PRAISED. Everyone involved in punishing them should be FIRED.
Thats what wrong with these forums so often the kids are praising the kids! Even if the kids were wrong or went about proving their point ina disruptive manner!!

Kids are still kids and have to follow adult rules!! Sorry!! That`s just the way it is!!

That`s one reason Ron what`s his name is Ron who?? now.

All his support was from mis- informed kids!

lets see it goes like this --
Who are you voting for?
A--Ron whats his name of course...

Are you old enough to vote?
Well no...but when I am old enough I will vote for Ron whats his name...lol

Peace!!
You are a moron. Pennies are legal tender, and it is not "disruptive" to pay for anything with federal legal tender.

Furthermore, children have free speech rights just like any adult. One of those adult rules that children must follow is the RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH. Sorry!! That's just the way it is!!
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,923
0
0
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

"Civil disobedience is the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands and commands of a government, or of an occupying power, without resorting to physical violence."

Were any LAWS broken by the protesters?
Was anyone's safety threatened by the actions of the protesters?
Were the protesters in any way violent?


Instead of punishing them, how about granting them a public forum. Explain the position and requirements upon administration and develop a dialogue. While you're at it, praise them for their initiative and concern, but offer them alternatives to their chosen method of protest that would have been less disruptive while still expressing their concerns in an impacting way.
Maybe the students should have asked for a public forum before setting up a protest or disturbance. In our school that is what the student counsel is for. I'm not saying I fully agree with either side, but since they caused a disturbance on that scale the administrator has to respond or else he / she loses authority with the students, when that happens you have anarchy. School can mirror the real world to an extent, but it has to have more structure or the students won't learn, that is unless they are mature enough to operate without the structure.
How is purchasing lunch with US currency a disturbance?

I seriously doubt accepting the pennies would have caused anarchy. You are being over dramatic, and frankly foolish. You should be allowed to use any combination of US currency to purchase anything you want.

If I want to buy a car with $1 bills, I should be allowed to do that. All US currency is legal tender for all transactions in the US territories. No one can legally deny your use of US currency (ie pennies, nickels, $1 bills, etc.). It is guaranteed by the federal government.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,195
71
91
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Just because you suffer consequences for something doesn't mean you weren't right to do it.

"Arguably, the Riders did not engage in civil disobedience because the Supreme Court's decision in Boynton v. Virginia granted them a legal right to disregard local segregation ordinances regarding interstate transportation facilities. But their rights were not enforced, and were considered criminal acts throughout most of the South. For example, upon the Riders' arrival in Mississippi, their journey ended with imprisonment for exercising their legal rights in interstate travel, and similar arrests took place in other southern cities. Freedom Riders knew that they faced arrest by authorities determined to stop their protests and possible mob violence and before starting they committed themselves to a strategy of non-violent resistance."
And that has what to do with what? Schools are populated with minors who need structure, if you don't provide that structure you will have chaos. I totally agree with your views, as they pertain to adults, but most minors do not have the maturity to fully understand or think through what they do. Palehorse was right, this might have been an ideal situation to turn this into a civics lesson, but imho that would have worked only before they staged the protest.

In this case the students demand 30 more minutes for lunch without going through the proper channels, as well as not realizing that the administrator probably has to schedule multiple classes through the lunchroom in a timely manner, as well as maintaining the required amount of classroom days to keep funding.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
0
Sorry, but school DOES NOT= Government. Therefore no violation of rights.

You are at a private institution, on private property. (don't think so ? get in a fender bender on school grounds and see what the police tell you)

Children do not have the same rights as adults. As stated in the OP....it went from being a stand up for what you want type thing, to a prank.

What is the purpose of a prank?....to be disruptive. There are punishments for being disruptive and detention is one of those things.

If the kids wanted a longer lunch why pay for it in all pennies? Why not just sit ten minutes longer at the table?

How many here work? How many only get 30 minutes for lunch? Why should these kids get any longer than you? They get recess and lunch...how much recess do you get?

Sounds fair doesn't it?

If you think that it's unfair that you only get 30 minutes for lunch at your job and you have a cafeteria that you eat in at work that serves food.....pay for it all in pennies and see how your employer reacts.

Going out for lunch in a group?...think 30 minutes is unfair? Pay at the restaurant in all all pennies and when your boss asks why your late....tell him what you did and that you did it out of protest and see what he says.

Praising these kids and letting them off the hook does nothing to prepare them for the real world where there are consequences for your actions.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,195
71
91
Originally posted by: Eeezee
Was it a public school? If the students contest this as a free speech act, they will win for sure so long as it's a public school (ie public land). If it's a private school, well, private schools can kind of do whatever they want.

I know some public universities have tried to establish "free speech zones" for protests, and when they were challenged they all lost. It's public land, so long as you're not disruptive your free speech is protected.

Furthermore, pennis are legal tender, so there was nothing wrong with what they did. I'd like the administrators to point to the rule that explicitly states that you can't use legal federal tender (pennies) to purchase lunch.
And that is one of the main problems with public schools in the US. They are so fearful of being sued by everyone they can't discipline the children which also means they can't teach them. For this reason I am a major supporter of the charter schools, we simply don't have issues like this. Problems are taken into consideration per charter policies as they happen.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
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Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

"Civil disobedience is the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands and commands of a government, or of an occupying power, without resorting to physical violence."

Were any LAWS broken by the protesters?
Was anyone's safety threatened by the actions of the protesters?
Were the protesters in any way violent?


Instead of punishing them, how about granting them a public forum. Explain the position and requirements upon administration and develop a dialogue. While you're at it, praise them for their initiative and concern, but offer them alternatives to their chosen method of protest that would have been less disruptive while still expressing their concerns in an impacting way.
Maybe the students should have asked for a public forum before setting up a protest or disturbance. In our school that is what the student counsel is for. I'm not saying I fully agree with either side, but since they caused a disturbance on that scale the administrator has to respond or else he / she loses authority with the students, when that happens you have anarchy. School can mirror the real world to an extent, but it has to have more structure or the students won't learn, that is unless they are mature enough to operate without the structure.
Not saying they did everything perfect, they're kids, they're going to make mistakes. But the last thing people should be doing is giving out punishments for a good-intentioned attempt. Especially when the greatest issue facing the country is that no one seems to care or try.

Authority is allowed from below, not granted from above. People want to be led, but require efficacy/agency. Anarchy arises when people feel they are losing their power over those over them, not when those over them actually lose their power.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,195
71
91
Originally posted by: Eeezee
How is purchasing lunch with US currency a disturbance?

I seriously doubt accepting the pennies would have caused anarchy. You are being over dramatic, and frankly foolish. You should be allowed to use any combination of US currency to purchase anything you want.

If I want to buy a car with $1 bills, I should be allowed to do that. All US currency is legal tender for all transactions in the US territories. No one can legally deny your use of US currency (ie pennies, nickels, $1 bills, etc.). It is guaranteed by the federal government.
And you are going to claim with a straight face that asking a lunch lady to count out 200 pennies per student is not a disturbance and a waste of her time? Try taking that much coin in pennies to a bank on a day when their coin counter in broken and see what happens? Most have policies that say the coins must be prerolled, to which they will gladly give you the paper rolls for free.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,195
71
91
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Authority is allowed from below, not granted from above. People want to be led, but require efficacy/agency. Anarchy arises when people feel they are losing their power over those over them, not when those over them actually lose their power.
With adults and our government, yes, but not with kids. If I followed the belief that my 5 year old allows my authority I would be in a world of trouble. Same with my students. Instead with children you give them as much responsibility as they can take. When they exceed what they are capable then you reel it back. They do need guidance and with that they will gain maturity.

You are in for an eye opener if you plan on teaching high school and I truly wish you the best of luck.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
0
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Just because you suffer consequences for something doesn't mean you weren't right to do it.

"Arguably, the Riders did not engage in civil disobedience because the Supreme Court's decision in Boynton v. Virginia granted them a legal right to disregard local segregation ordinances regarding interstate transportation facilities. But their rights were not enforced, and were considered criminal acts throughout most of the South. For example, upon the Riders' arrival in Mississippi, their journey ended with imprisonment for exercising their legal rights in interstate travel, and similar arrests took place in other southern cities. Freedom Riders knew that they faced arrest by authorities determined to stop their protests and possible mob violence and before starting they committed themselves to a strategy of non-violent resistance."
And that has what to do with what? Schools are populated with minors who need structure, if you don't provide that structure you will have chaos. I totally agree with your views, as they pertain to adults, but most minors do not have the maturity to fully understand or think through what they do. Palehorse was right, this might have been an ideal situation to turn this into a civics lesson, but imho that would have worked only before they staged the protest.

In this case the students demand 30 more minutes for lunch without going through the proper channels, as well as not realizing that the administrator probably has to schedule multiple classes through the lunchroom in a timely manner, as well as maintaining the required amount of classroom days to keep funding.
I would say that's a big reason why kids have the problems they do today...people who insist that students are just 'minors' and set their expectations so incredibly low. So long as you honestly believe that kids need that kind of structure they'll never be able to exist without it.

While I believe that an hour lunch (at least) should be required everywhere for a number of very important reasons, I fully realize that this type of protest won't make that happen. However, in the modern world it seems like only civil disobedience is capable of opening a dialog that may eventually accomplish the goals in the proper way. Between the validity of the complaint and the beauty of protest there's just too much good here to accept punishment, except in VERY mild form...and even then only if it's accompanied by addressing the concerns.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
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Originally posted by: Wheezer
Sorry, but school DOES NOT= Government. Therefore no violation of rights.

You are at a private institution, on private property. (don't think so ? get in a fender bender on school grounds and see what the police tell you)

Children do not have the same rights as adults. As stated in the OP....it went from being a stand up for what you want type thing, to a prank.

What is the purpose of a prank?....to be disruptive. There are punishments for being disruptive and detention is one of those things.

If the kids wanted a longer lunch why pay for it in all pennies? Why not just sit ten minutes longer at the table?

How many here work? How many only get 30 minutes for lunch? Why should these kids get any longer than you? They get recess and lunch...how much recess do you get?

Sounds fair doesn't it?

If you think that it's unfair that you only get 30 minutes for lunch at your job and you have a cafeteria that you eat in at work that serves food.....pay for it all in pennies and see how your employer reacts.

Going out for lunch in a group?...think 30 minutes is unfair? Pay at the restaurant in all all pennies and when your boss asks why your late....tell him what you did and that you did it out of protest and see what he says.

Praising these kids and letting them off the hook does nothing to prepare them for the real world where there are consequences for your actions.
Actually schools are public property most of the time.

The point of protest is also to be disruptive. We have a right to protest, we don't have a 'right' to prank. The difference is if there was an underlying cause. In this case, there was.

Just because an employer may only grant some people 30 minute lunches doesn't make it right. If anything workers should be ashamed that their children stand up for what is right while they don't.

Recess usually ends in elementary school.

The real world sucks because people won't stand up for what's right. If we won't support those who seek change for the better then we all might as well just give the hell up and die now.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
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Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Authority is allowed from below, not granted from above. People want to be led, but require efficacy/agency. Anarchy arises when people feel they are losing their power over those over them, not when those over them actually lose their power.
With adults and our government, yes, but not with kids. If I followed the belief that my 5 year old allows my authority I would be in a world of trouble. Same with my students. Instead with children you give them as much responsibility as they can take. When they exceed what they are capable then you reel it back. They do need guidance and with that they will gain maturity.

You are in for an eye opener if you plan on teaching high school and I truly wish you the best of luck.
I don't disagree that they need help and guidance, or that they can't handle the full load at once. I believe, however, that they can handle a LOT more than most people grant them. I want to push their boundaries out, not push them in.

You could be right, I might end up in real trouble. I think it's WAY more likely that I'll get into trouble from the top down, than from the bottom up however. I'll get fired long before I'll lose control of the class. At least that's my guess. *shrug* We'll see soon.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,195
71
91
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

I would say that's a big reason why kids have the problems they do today...people who insist that students are just 'minors' and set their expectations so incredibly low. So long as you honestly believe that kids need that kind of structure they'll never be able to exist without it.

While I believe that an hour lunch (at least) should be required everywhere for a number of very important reasons, I fully realize that this type of protest won't make that happen. However, in the modern world it seems like only civil disobedience is capable of opening a dialog that may eventually accomplish the goals in the proper way. Between the validity of the complaint and the beauty of protest there's just too much good here to accept punishment, except in VERY mild form...and even then only if it's accompanied by addressing the concerns.
And I feel a lot of our problems are because kids aren't given enough structure and discipline at home or school. We have a disciplined school, the kids are happy, the teachers are glad to go to work, and the worst fighting we have had has been a few cases of shoving, that is after being operational for only 2 years. It should only get better as the kids live the culture for a few more years.

Our school has 20 minute lunch sessions, with an additional 15 minutes or so for recess. That is to get 8 grades through the lunchroom two classes at a time. That means lunch is served for roughly and hour and a half. 30 minutes for eating sounds reasonable. As an adult I'm lucky if I get 15 minutes while at work.

Imho detentions are mild punishments. Protesting for the sake of protesting is just wrong, protesting for a just cause is valid, I just don't see this as being all that just of a cause.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
5
0
I think the idea of brown bagging it makes far more sense than the penny thing.

Bring your lunch from home and make the school 'feel' the loss of money.

Other than that let's not forget we are talking about 12 year olds here and we all know how stupid we were at that age. Paying with pennies sounds like a great idea, but doesn't looks like they thought the whole thing through.

Also, part of civil disobedience means being willing to suffer for your actions. Thoreau, Gandhi and MLK all spent time in jail due to their acts of disobedience. War protestors who chain themselves to recruiter doors know they are going to be arrested for their actions. If these kids want to make like adults and stage a protest then they should be willing to suffer the penalty like adults.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,697
3,156
126
Originally posted by: Eeezee
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
This is what's wrong with America today. People finally stop being sheep, stand up for their rights, exercise proper civil disobedience, and they're punished for it by ignorant asses who don't deserve their position. To see this kind of leadership and initiative in middle school kids is AWESOME.

These kids should be PRAISED. Everyone involved in punishing them should be FIRED.
Thats what wrong with these forums so often the kids are praising the kids! Even if the kids were wrong or went about proving their point ina disruptive manner!!

Kids are still kids and have to follow adult rules!! Sorry!! That`s just the way it is!!

That`s one reason Ron what`s his name is Ron who?? now.

All his support was from mis- informed kids!

lets see it goes like this --
Who are you voting for?
A--Ron whats his name of course...

Are you old enough to vote?
Well no...but when I am old enough I will vote for Ron whats his name...lol

Peace!!
You are a moron. Pennies are legal tender, and it is not "disruptive" to pay for anything with federal legal tender.

Furthermore, children have free speech rights just like any adult. One of those adult rules that children must follow is the RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH. Sorry!! That's just the way it is!!
No you are a moron and damn ignorant!!
You are probably also a kid who does not understand the true meaning of civil disobedience!

as wheezer stated latee on--

Children do not have the same rights as adults. As stated in the OP....it went from being a stand up for what you want type thing, to a prank.

What is the purpose of a prank?....to be disruptive. There are punishments for being disruptive and detention is one of those things.
If the kids wanted a longer lunch why pay for it in all pennies? Why not just sit ten minutes longer at the table?

How many here work? How many only get 30 minutes for lunch? Why should these kids get any longer than you? They get recess and lunch...how much recess do you get?

Sounds fair doesn't it?

If you think that it's unfair that you only get 30 minutes for lunch at your job and you have a cafeteria that you eat in at work that serves food.....pay for it all in pennies and see how your employer reacts.

Going out for lunch in a group?...think 30 minutes is unfair? Pay at the restaurant in all all pennies and when your boss asks why your late....tell him what you did and that you did it out of protest and see what he says.

Praising these kids and letting them off the hook does nothing to prepare them for the real world where there are consequences for your actions.


Pwned!!
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,480
3,593
126
Poorly handled by the School authorities. This is a failure of Leadership, not of the students. Seems to be going around lately.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
0
Know why they didn't brown bag it, and make the school suffer a money loss?

#1 They and/or their parents are too damn lazy to pack one.

#2 It's not as much fun and not as disruptive...which was the goal....not to get a message across.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,195
71
91
Whoever thinks that schools pull a profit from lunch programs are fools. Most are subsidized by the state, even less break even.
 

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