What gun to purchase for home protection?

[PliotronX]

I am swayed to the Glock 9mm. Can you tell me what the main difference is between the Glock 17 and Glock 19, or is it just size? There also appear to be various generations of Glocks. Is the latest generation the better one?

Yes, it is just size and capacity. The nuance is that larger frames tend to be more reliable simply because the recoil spring is under less pressure and has more time to cycle because of the longer slide. Longer sight radius also means it's easier to acquire the sight picture and the longer barrel drives the bullet faster so it is more effective.

The Generation 4 Glocks have proven just as reliable and feature dual recoil springs IIRC so they soak up a little more recoil and stippling on the sides of the grip help with positive handling. If you find a good deal on a Gen 3 I would be confident in it as well.

As far as ammo goes, keep a couple of boxes of any of these and loaded for defensive use and however much of FMJ you wish for practice:

Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

This is the list of acceptable defense loads from the foremost authority in terminal ballistics. Notice that the HST 124 standard pressure is NOT on it.

He has said that load is ok if you can't get something from this list but you should pick something from the list first if you can get it.

If I can't find the HST 147 or 124 +P I usually go with either 124+P Gold Dot or 124 +P Golden Saber bonded

 

[Raizinman]

If I don't intend to carry or conceal carry; basically just home defense and perhaps the target range on occasion, is there any problem in buying used from an individual for cash? What is the risk if the gun was stolen? What if the serial number has been ground off? Is this even legal? Anything else to look out for?

 

[rommelrommel]

Saiga 12 is an AK-47 assault rifle (originally chambered for 7.62), which has been rechambered for a 12 gauge shotgun shell and can hold a 10 round magazine. Fits pretty well with the OP's requirements, IMHO.

I do agree with JM here on the pistol recommendation though, so allow me to offer a compromise solution...

I used to house sit for my dad back when I was in college. I did quite a lot of target pistol shooting (Series 70 Colt .45 auto), and even reloaded my own ammo.

For home protection though, I used a Ruger Super Blackhawk revolver. This pistol was chambered in .44 magnum and a 7.5" barrel, and I used to load a mix of 2 rounds. The Super Blackhawk had a larger grip and frame to deal with the recoil of the .44 magnum.

My compromise was this: "Rat loads" or .44 shot shells. A 12 gauge is roughly equal to .50, so the .44 magnum shot shell is nearly the same size.

So what I had was essentially a six shot <B>street legal sawed off shotgun</B>.

The power of a shotgun in one hand, without the unwieldy characteristics of a long gun. Within the confines of a house, you are talking very close range. Point in the general direction of the intruder, and you won't miss.

I typically had 4 shot shells, and then 2 hollow point .44 rounds (in case an intruder kept coming).

Never once had to use it... but it was comforting knowing it was available.

This is probably the worst post in this thread, because it sounds just legitimate enough that some clown might listen to it.

Your .44 shotshell rounds are good for rats... and that's about it. They are not even in the same area code as a 12g shotgun shell. Also as pointed out... huge SA revolver for home defense?

If you think its just as easy to aim a 9 mm pistol at someone and stop them vs a 12 gauge shotgun or 410 judge pistol, then you would be wrong.

Yes, it's far easier to stop someone with a 9mm pistol than a judge loaded with 410... lol. 410 is for little birds, not stopping someone intent on doing great harm to you.

I am swayed to the Glock 9mm. Can you tell me what the main difference is between the Glock 17 and Glock 19, or is it just size? There also appear to be various generations of Glocks. Is the latest generation the better one?

Not a bad choice at all but any modern high quality and reliable semi auto pistol is a good choice IMO.

 

[irishScott]

If I don't intend to carry or conceal carry; basically just home defense and perhaps the target range on occasion, is there any problem in buying used from an individual for cash? What is the risk if the gun was stolen? What if the serial number has been ground off? Is this even legal? Anything else to look out for?

Assuming the location under your avatar is correct and you live in Kansas, you shouldn't have a problem. Gun transfer laws are state-based, some states require you do use an FFL as an intermediary for background checks and such, others (such as Kansas) make it purely optional.

As for stolen guns, if you use an FFL you can request that they run the gun's serial number against the ATF's stolen gun database. If you don't want to go through that (insisting on an FFL can risk alienating a seller who doesn't want to go through the hassle, and there are some small fees for their services) you're still not criminally liable if you unknowingly bought stolen property, although you may have to give up the gun if the police find out in the future. For insurance, I'd make a custom receipt stating something alone the lines of:

I, _____insert seller name_______, do hereby testify that Glock Model __insert model #___, serial number ___insert serial number___ came into my possession by lawful means and can be lawfully sold by my person in the state of Kansas.

Signature: ________________ Date:_____________


And then to keep things fair, I'd have a separate form for yourself to give to the seller (if he doesn't have one of his/her own already).

I, _____insert your name_____, do hereby testify that I am lawfully able to purchase Glock Model ___insert model number___, serial number ___insert serial number___ from a private seller in the state of Kansas.

Signature: ________________ Date:_____________



It's probably not necessary, but in the highly unlikely event that things turn ugly it'll provide a little more weight than simply saying "I didn't know!".




Honestly though I'd avoid all of this unless you know someone selling the model you want off the top of your head. Glocks are ubiquitous, just order online from a reputable dealer or find a gun store and skip the overhead.

 

[alkemyst]

People are giving shotguns / shells WAY too much credit as the end all, be all.

 

[Scarpozzi]

People are giving shotguns / shells WAY too much credit as the end all, be all.

They're easier to aim and shoot than a handgun and require less skill to hit a target (because of the barrel length, not the scatter). This is mainly because we're making an assumption that the operator doesn't go to the range that often. The shot itself is safer in a house, but certainly harder to patch drywall if you were to blast a hole in the wall @ less than 10-15 feet....

For extreme close combat, I prefer a handgun because the round goes exactly where you point it. But it does take preparation to maximize your accuracy and effectiveness....and feel comfortable operating it. (understand the safety mechanisms,speed loading, etc)

 

[irishScott]

They're easier to aim and shoot than a handgun and require less skill to hit a target (because of the barrel length, not the scatter). This is mainly because we're making an assumption that the operator doesn't go to the range that often. The shot itself is safer in a house, but certainly harder to patch drywall if you were to blast a hole in the wall @ less than 10-15 feet....

For extreme close combat, I prefer a handgun because the round goes exactly where you point it. But it does take preparation to maximize your accuracy and effectiveness....and feel comfortable operating it. (understand the safety mechanisms,speed loading, etc)

Uhh, what? Any respectable self defense load (typically 00 buck) is going to go through just as many walls as any handgun round.

I prefer a handgun simply because in a dark house I'm probably going to need another hand to open doors, turn on lights, guide loved ones to safety, etc. Inside virtually any home we're talking sub-7 yards. Sure you need to practice, but I wouldn't call hitting a man-sized target at that range "skillful", even relative to a shotgun.

 

[Phanuel]

A semi auto shotgun with an 18" barrel is probably the easiest thing to use for nearly anyone. Downsides to it are reloading if you manager to go through the 5-8 rounds you had loaded in it and recoil management for untrained users.

A pistol is better for someone who is an enthusiast and trains semi-regularly because it frees up another hand to do something else with a little bit of sacrifice in overall recoil control.

A rifle, like an AR, is almost on par with a shotgun while having the benefits of larger magazine capacity and easier reloading and the downside of having to actually spend more effort aiming iron sights or using a red dot sight instead of the simplicity of a vent rib or bead sight.

 

[rommelrommel]

They're easier to aim and shoot than a handgun and require less skill to hit a target (because of the barrel length, not the scatter). This is mainly because we're making an assumption that the operator doesn't go to the range that often. The shot itself is safer in a house, but certainly harder to patch drywall if you were to blast a hole in the wall @ less than 10-15 feet....

For extreme close combat, I prefer a handgun because the round goes exactly where you point it. But it does take preparation to maximize your accuracy and effectiveness....and feel comfortable operating it. (understand the safety mechanisms,speed loading, etc)

There are also quite a few dumbasses advocating 410 or smaller shotgun loads.

The shotgun loads that you want to use for self defense are not getting stopped by drywall... if drywall will stop it or slow it to the point of being non-lethal I'm goign to go out on a limb and say it's not going to reliably stop a imminent threat to your life.

 

[crashtech]

The Maverick 88 is a nice cheap 12ga that accepts most Mossberg 500 parts. An 18" barrel variant with a pistol grip stock would be a serviceable choice for minimal investment.

 

[Scarpozzi]

There are also quite a few dumbasses advocating 410 or smaller shotgun loads.

The shotgun loads that you want to use for self defense are not getting stopped by drywall... if drywall will stop it or slow it to the point of being non-lethal I'm goign to go out on a limb and say it's not going to reliably stop a imminent threat to your life.

If firing in the house at an intruder, you could be shooting rubber pellets or rock salt and do plenty of damage. In most instances on homes in America, you'll be lucky to have 10-12 feet of distance between you and an intruder...unless you're looking down a hallway or are in a large great room.

I'm referring to reducing the risk of having a round travel through multiple walls and hitting a loved one. In most cases, solid rounds will sheer off into smaller pieces that won't do as much damage, especially because their velocity takes a hit from the first obstacle it hits. Shotgun loads are typically slower to start with, but lose even more velocity because of how the energy is dispersed when fired. Don't get me wrong though...At close range, shotguns can be very deadly and many can go through multiple walls. Home defense rounds are almost always made to do more damage at the initial point of contact with less energy. This is almost the same thought process that makes the .22 one of the more deadly rounds...they tumble when they make contact rather than slicing through the target.

Check the size of the holes made between the first and second walls hit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29mEJFFIvo

@irishScott
The rounds are still scattering, but you can see some of the loads don't penetrate the second wall fully. Bigger pellets don't necessarily mean the velocity of the pellets are faster...it all depends on the barrel length and load. Buck will definitely hurt, but bird would too at 10-12 feet. It's basically like comparing a 16oz hammer to 20oz hammer....

 

[HumblePie]

Yes, it's far easier to stop someone with a 9mm pistol than a judge loaded with 410... lol. 410 is for little birds, not stopping someone intent on doing great harm to you.

Uhh one version of the Judge is a frikking monster. The Taurus Raging Judge. You load .45 long colt and 454 casul in it as well as 410 shot. I think they were coming out with a 20ga version of it at one point. Big, light, easy to handle, and almost no recoil. Faster to shoot than a shotgun as well. If you don't think 454 casul is enough to stop someone I know some dead bears that would beg to differ with you.

Actually it's a bit overkill compared to a 9mm, which as you say, is effective enough at stopping a human threat. But the Judge I know is way easier to handle. I know some very old people with massive arthritis in their wrists and elbows that preclude them from using other forms of firearms reliably and with accuracy. The Judge lets them shoot well enough with much more ease than any other platform they've tried.

 

[SP33Demon]

A rifle, like an AR, is almost on par with a shotgun while having the benefits of larger magazine capacity and easier reloading and the downside of having to actually spend more effort aiming iron sights or using a red dot sight instead of the simplicity of a vent rib or bead sight.

Larger mag capacity than a semi auto shotty? Hmmm.
http://youtu.be/F1vPXTcE5-4

 

[smackababy]

Larger mag capacity than a semi auto shotty? Hmmm.
http://youtu.be/F1vPXTcE5-4

I can't see the video, but there are very few shotguns that can hold 30+ rounds, like rifles. I mean, sure, you could get an AA-12 with a 32 round drum, but who does that, especially someone as noob as the OP?

 

[JulesMaximus]

They're easier to aim and shoot than a handgun and require less skill to hit a target (because of the barrel length, not the scatter). This is mainly because we're making an assumption that the operator doesn't go to the range that often. The shot itself is safer in a house, but certainly harder to patch drywall if you were to blast a hole in the wall @ less than 10-15 feet....

For extreme close combat, I prefer a handgun because the round goes exactly where you point it. But it does take preparation to maximize your accuracy and effectiveness....and feel comfortable operating it. (understand the safety mechanisms,speed loading, etc)

Blah blah blah... Let's be realistic here, none of you fuckers are ever going to use a gun in self defense anyway so my advice would be to get something that you'll actually want to shoot at the range because that is all you'll be shooting anyway.

Have any of you even fired a 12 gauge shotgun before? They aren't exactly forgiving. They pound the shit out of your shoulder and I can't imagine my wife ever shooting one... not more than once anyway.

Get a 9mm handgun or a .38/.357 revolver. Small, easy to shoot, accurate, fun to take to the range. Easy to conceal around the house or lock up in a small safe if you're concerned about kids finding it.

Where the fuck are you going to put a shotgun?

 

[highland145]

Larger mag capacity than a semi auto shotty? Hmmm.
http://youtu.be/F1vPXTcE5-4

I have that with a 20 rdn drum. Heavy even unloaded but if there are zombies or looters, I'll manage.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Blah blah blah... Let's be realistic here, none of you fuckers are ever going to use a gun in self defense anyway so my advice would be to get something that you'll actually want to shoot at the range because that is all you'll be shooting anyway.

Have any of you even fired a 12 gauge shotgun before? They aren't exactly forgiving. They pound the shit out of your shoulder and I can't imagine my wife ever shooting one... not more than once anyway.

Get a 9mm handgun or a .38/.357 revolver. Small, easy to shoot, accurate, fun to take to the range. Easy to conceal around the house or lock up in a small safe if you're concerned about kids finding it.

Where the fuck are you going to put a shotgun?

What the hell you talking about? Something like the 870 with 12g barely has any recoil.

 

[JulesMaximus]

What the hell you talking about? Something like the 870 with 12g barely has any recoil.

Bullshit. Even with birdshot it will pack a punch, especially out of a tactical shotgun.

I have a 12 gauge shotgun (Winchester 1200) and a 20 gauge (Beretta O/U) and I wouldn't use either of them for home defense. I don't particularly like shooting the 12 gauge and I know my wife wouldn't want to shoot it. In fact, when I decided to buy an O/U shotgun I went with the 20 gauge because of my experience with the 12 gauge and I'm glad I did. I could shoot the 20 gauge all day long. The 12 gauge I'm good for maybe 15-20 rounds and my shoulder is done. 3 or 3.5" magnum slugs? Forget it. Two shots max and I'm done.

I have a few handguns and I do keep one of them around for home defense.

 

[soulcougher73]

A pool has a real purpose, which is for enjoyment and excersise , a guns only function is to maim and murder.

Which is exactly what you want when being assaulted in your home.

 

[slag]

What the hell you talking about? Something like the 870 with 12g barely has any recoil.

Well, its a lot more forgiving than a woman with weak wrists shooting a 9 mm or .40 cal handgun anyway. My wife has shot the 12 gauge, 20 gauge, and 9 mm pistol (and my father in law's judge), and she thought the shotguns were far easier to shoot as she felt more wrapped around it and in control. She doesn't like guns either.

 

[Phanuel]

What the hell you talking about? Something like the 870 with 12g barely has any recoil.

00 buck is punishing. Plenty of police departments have officers who no longer qualify on shotguns because they don't even want to spend a day shooting just 30-40 rounds once every 6 months.

#7.5 Birdshot will still bruise you plenty. I've gotten bit by the clay bug and I'm finally at the point where shooting 70-80 rounds isn't bruising me anymore but it's taken quite awhile to get there and I'm also 6'2" at 195lbs. A 5'4" 110lb woman? She'll have issues with even birdshot unless she's really into the sporting aspect and wants to push through the beating you end up taking.

 

[SP33Demon]

I can't see the video, but there are very few shotguns that can hold 30+ rounds, like rifles. I mean, sure, you could get an AA-12 with a 32 round drum, but who does that, especially someone as noob as the OP?

It was a Saiga 12 ($700) with a 30round drum ($50). Any noob can get one at those prices, including the OP. Like Highland said, they are pretty heavy though. So you better be strong.

 

[irishScott]

Blah blah blah... Let's be realistic here, none of you fuckers are ever going to use a gun in self defense anyway so my advice would be to get something that you'll actually want to shoot at the range because that is all you'll be shooting anyway.

Have any of you even fired a 12 gauge shotgun before? They aren't exactly forgiving. They pound the shit out of your shoulder and I can't imagine my wife ever shooting one... not more than once anyway.

Get a 9mm handgun or a .38/.357 revolver. Small, easy to shoot, accurate, fun to take to the range. Easy to conceal around the house or lock up in a small safe if you're concerned about kids finding it.

Where the fuck are you going to put a shotgun?

Lol, I've been in 2 situations in my life where I was doing everything right and still only avoided the need for a weapon by luck as much as good judgement/avoidance, I've posted about them before and I don't feel like doing so again. Suffice it to say you can't tell me that I'll never need to use a gun in self defense. Highly unlikely? Sure. Out of the question? Hell no. Yes I know you lived through the LA riots and didn't have to use your gun. Good for you, but doesn't prove a negative for everyone else.

Adam Carolla actually had a good line relevant to this (although he was talking about something else). He made the point that in most areas of the US you could keep your front door unlocked for 1000 nights and not have to worry. And he's right, but it begs to question what about night 1001?

There's no irrationality in planning for basic home defense and wanting the best tool for the job at your disposal. If someone thinks that tool is a shotgun and wants to keep said shotgun under the bed, why not?

 

[Phanuel]

It was a Saiga 12 ($700) with a 30round drum ($50). Any noob can get one at those prices, including the OP. Like Highland said, they are pretty heavy though. So you better be strong.

Kind of hard to get a Saiga now due to the importation bill banning the entire manufacturer. And the Saiga is also known to be very finicky to get running right. I'd be hard pressed to recommend it to someone new to firearms who doesn't want to spend the time and money to potentially get it running right.

 

[SP33Demon]

00 buck is punishing. Plenty of police departments have officers who no longer qualify on shotguns because they don't even want to spend a day shooting just 30-40 rounds once every 6 months.

#7.5 Birdshot will still bruise you plenty. I've gotten bit by the clay bug and I'm finally at the point where shooting 70-80 rounds isn't bruising me anymore but it's taken quite awhile to get there and I'm also 6'2" at 195lbs. A 5'4" 110lb woman? She'll have issues with even birdshot unless she's really into the sporting aspect and wants to push through the beating you end up taking.

Put this on your stock, works like a dream:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00081Q7E4
Also add a decent muzzle brake, the two combined should cut your recoil down significantly to where women can comfortably shoot it. I can shoot 200 rounds and it's fun. With the Rem 870 (with no pad), 200 rounds was rather punishing.