What first: FTL Travel or True AI?

[Darwin333]

I'd be careful with that. While true there may be a limit to the amount of energy that can be concentrated into one place, that's assuming a) we know everything about energy and the universe, and b) the only way to do it is with more energy than can exist in said space. Those are really heavy assumptions, akin to a bronze-age alchemist determining rockets were impossible because that much gunpowder in a tube would simply explode. Not enough data yet to state definitively *what* FTL would require.

I think I saw somewhere that a "relatively" small amount of antimatter would provide enough energy for certain theoretical FTL drive(s). Now I say relatively because currently even if we could contain it the ridiculously small amount that we can make at a time it would take us like 1,000 years to make enough or something.

 

[Darwin333]

We are getting a pretty good understanding of the universe on a theoretical level. We are pretty much now just learning new things about quantum effects that probably can not interact with things as large as an atom, much less a spacecraft. We are definitely not at the bronze-age alchemist level of understanding the laws of the universe. There is no magic unobtainium that will make FTL travel easy.

That is a rather arrogant statement. Hell we don't even know how gravity works yet and that is a "force" that has been felt since the dawn of man. It has been well studied since the 1600's and we still only have guesses as to what the hell it is so to say that we have even a pretty good understanding of the universe, even on a theoretical level, it's frankly flat out arrogant to think that we even know all of the questions much less have potential answers.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

ither that, or figure out how to make objects have no mass. And if you can do that, if there's some imaginary negative mass concept... crazy to think about. I'm not a physicist. thank god.

I think that was the premise of Mass Effect (if I remember right, was a while back), that literally the 'mass effect' in the universe was some method discovered to make things massless which was the clutch discovery for FTL travel/super sci-fi.

Every physicist I know or have read any writing on has all said the same thing about the EM drive, that what is interesting about it is that we are learning that some of our testing methodology is flawed.

I'd normally agree, in fact that was the first thing I thought (and probably most thought) upon hearing about it, it's another cold fusion/perpetual motion/space drive/whatever, and it probably still is. I just find it remarkable that it's withstood what, like 6 different independent groups trying to disprove it, including NASA's moonshot/x-files/whatever. I just find it interesting that it's still floating around at all, its actual capabilities/likelihood of working notwithstanding.

I think I saw somewhere that a "relatively" small amount of antimatter would provide enough energy for certain theoretical FTL drive(s). Now I say relatively because currently even if we could contain it the ridiculously small amount that we can make at a time it would take us like 1,000 years to make enough or something.

Yeah, I've heard similar. That's another 'brute force' method IMO, unless we find a novel way of generating antimatter.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Here's another hypothetical thought for the whole FTL thing...

Let's say we never do beat FTL, that gravy train just doesn't have a stepladder. Instead, we find a way to just make ourselves immortal, thus making the light barrier mostly irrelevant. There's still some stuff we couldn't do (we could only colonize so many galaxies @ 99.9~ light speed before the universe ended), but with immortality it makes traveling the stars more an effort in patience.

Not to say that 'just making ourselves immortal' is some small thing, but when compared against the physics of the universe, replacing squishy meat is prolly a lot easier (or sidestep it and do the whole upload-brain-to-computer thing).

 

[Grooveriding]

I personally feel that FTL travel (if it can even exist in our reality) is dependent on a 'clutch', or some singular discovery/invention/'one neat trick!' that just sorta unlocks it. A lot of sci-fi incorporates this (the Mass Effect is a good example), and it's basically the Deus Ex Machina of sci-fi/science fiction when it comes to this kind of thing.

AI seems to be entirely incremental, baby steps moving forward until we finally 'level up' to the AI, probably from some final discovery/really novel programming method.

I think so too. I know little to nothing about the science though. I only did a little physics early on in university. From how it's described though I feel like if it happens it will not really be FTL in the sense of propulsion at a higher speed, so much as some sort of way to just go from point A to B near instantly.

True AI long before that I think, of course some genius could figure out wormhole tech in their basement after binging on mountain dew and cheetos, who knows.

 

[Paratus]

Not really, though. Every physicist I know or have read any writing on has all said the same thing about the EM drive, that what is interesting about it is that we are learning that some of our testing methodology is flawed. Basically no one thinks it is actually producing thrust, only that our testing methodology is showing it producing thrust, which probably means that our testing methodology is flawed somehow. All the 'NEW SPACE DRIVE!!!1!ONE!!' is all click bait and bad science reporting sensationalism.



We are a lot closer to these things then you seem to imply. Having found gravity waves means we now know that the 'gravity is caused by the shape of space-time' theory is probably correct. We have several competing theories on quantum mechanics as well, and the experiments going on at CERN is narrowing those down.

Every new thing we do learn makes FTL travel seem less likely not more.

A couple of quick things.

The NASA folks who were testing the EM drive have a peer reviewers paper up for publishing in December. It leaked earlier this month.

The long and short is they tested a device:

• in Vacuum
• Forward Direction
• Reverse Direction
• Into the beam (expected no thrust in this confit
• @ 40, 60, and 80 watts

They reduced and quantified sources of error including thermal, mechanical, electromagnetic, and measurements. That error was about 6 microNewtons.

The thrust they measured was 40-120 microNewtons.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...experts-admit-say-baffled-actually-works.html

As for FTL the same group at NASA was investigating warping space per the Alcubierre metric.

Alcubierre being a theoretical physicist and Star Trek fan asked himself what a warp drive would looks like in General Relativity. So he solved for a spacetime curvature that left a flat region (2) in the center for the ship. The ship experiences no acceleration, remains slower than light locally and the clocks on board stay synced with mission control.

The Warped space bubble the ship is in moves faster than light giving apparent FTL speeds but not violating GR.

Sounds great but Alcubierre's solution required a Jupiter sized mass of energy and exotic matter with spacetime warping properties reveresed of normal matter. Exotic matter doesn't seen to exist.

The NASA folks lead by Dr. White played with the solution and think it's doable with a not insane amount of energy and possibly without exotic matter by changing the shape of the warp bubble They need a negative pressure similar to the Casmir effect to replace the exotic matter.

As it turns out the EM drive may (or may not) function this way. So they've stuck one on a laser interferometer to see if they can detect any warping of space.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White–Juday_warp-field_interferometer#

During the first two weeks of April 2015, scientists fired lasers through the EmDrive's resonance chamber[clarification needed] and noticed highly significant variations in the path time. The readings indicated that some of the laser pulses traveled longer, possibly pointing to a slight warp bubble inside the resonance chamber of the device. However, a small rise in ambient air temperature inside the chamber was also recorded, which could possibly have caused the recorded fluctuation in speeds of the laser pulses. According to Paul March, a NASA JSC researcher, the experiment was to be verified inside a vacuum chamber to remove all interference of air. This was done at the end of April 2015.[14][15] White does not think, however, that the measured change in path length is due to transient air heating, because the visibility threshold is 40 times larger than the predicted effect from air.[citation needed]

At any rate it's interesting research and very cool that we have a solution that potentially works with GR but way to soon to say it's actually possible.

I think I saw somewhere that a "relatively" small amount of antimatter would provide enough energy for certain theoretical FTL drive(s). Now I say relatively because currently even if we could contain it the ridiculously small amount that we can make at a time it would take us like 1,000 years to make enough or something.

If I did the math right, accelerating a ship the mass of the ISS (450 metric tons) to 0.1C would take 1100kg of antimatter combined with 1100kg of regular matter at a minimum.

 

[Darwin333]

Here's another hypothetical thought for the whole FTL thing...

Let's say we never do beat FTL, that gravy train just doesn't have a stepladder. Instead, we find a way to just make ourselves immortal, thus making the light barrier mostly irrelevant. There's still some stuff we couldn't do (we could only colonize so many galaxies @ 99.9~ light speed before the universe ended), but with immortality it makes traveling the stars more an effort in patience.

Not to say that 'just making ourselves immortal' is some small thing, but when compared against the physics of the universe, replacing squishy meat is prolly a lot easier (or sidestep it and do the whole upload-brain-to-computer thing).

I think even with FTL travel we could only visit a relative few galaxies because of the immense distance between galaxy clusters and the fact that they are constantly moving away from each other making the trip constantly farther and farther. I guess that depends on how much faster than light we are talking about though, maybe we somehow come up with some type of wormhole or instantaneous travel.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I think even with FTL travel we could only visit a relative few galaxies because of the immense distance between galaxy clusters and the fact that they are constantly moving away from each other making the trip constantly farther and farther. I guess that depends on how much faster than light we are talking about though, maybe we somehow come up with some type of wormhole or instantaneous travel.

Yeah, post FTL things start to get a little arbitrary/situational. I mean if the new cap based on how much energy we can pack into $shipchassis is 2c, yeah we can get to alpha centauri faster but we not exactly galaxytrotting. If we can select arbitrary coordinates and just hoover a gas giant/star to get the energy required, well now we're talking about a much different ballgame, we could generation-ship a galaxy at will.

As it turns out the EM drive may (or may not) function this way. So they've stuck one on a laser interferometer to see if they can detect any warping of space.

I didn't even know they were experimenting with that, last I knew it was some kind of weird 'metal shape + microwaves = thurst, derp?' kind of thing. That's wild though if some_dude came up with an accidental Alcubierre drive out of spare parts. Like some kind of one-trick-tony stark.

 

[Darwin333]

If I did the math right, accelerating a ship the mass of the ISS (450 metric tons) to 0.1C would take 1100kg of antimatter combined with 1100kg of regular matter at a minimum.

It's been a while since I read the paper but it wasn't necessarily accelerating the craft in the normal thrust sense, it was used to power a new type of drive that required a lot of energy.

 

[cbrunny]

Oh please... Would you have preferred my just saying "you're wrong", and perhaps asking if English were your second language? Or are you actually claiming to have a more than a basically simple understanding of the "nature" of matter and energy? If so, stop wasting your time posting here and get on the horn to Princeton, the Max Planck Institute, CERN, and/or any number of institutions that are no doubt dying to hear from you...

simmer down champ. i don't claim to have even a basic understanding of matter and energy. nor did i. anywhere in this thread.

what i said was i didn't want to debate whether or not "fundamental" and "thorough" are antonyms because I was enjoying this thread. I should not have said anything.

You need to relax.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

I believe AI will be here well before FTL.

 

[Grooveriding]

Haven't read the entire thread to see if it's been mentioned, but perhaps the AI will be able to develop FTL.

 

[cbrunny]

So I was thinking about this the other day again. There's something (well many things but this in particular has my current attention) that I don't understand about how any FTL would work.

Collision detection. Particularly things that aren't large. For the sake of the example, lets talk about a softball sized space rock. Not microscopic, not something you're going to see on a telescope. Assume we have some kind of scan that can detect stuff in space. How does the scanner work while travelling at FTL speed? In my mind I'm thinking of some kind of futuristic radar-esque device that would send out a wave of some kind and wait for the bounce back, or some other similar mechanism. Even if you can project the wave while travelling at FTL speed, it would need the ability to extend in front of you and return to you in a sufficiently fast time that would allow for the signal to be sent, received, interpreted, and any course corrections adjusted. Relative to FTL speeds, that would take a hella long time. If it takes, lets say, one half second for the wave to reach 10 km in front, return (or not, I suppose), into the computer, turn the rudder, at the speed of light you would travel an additional ~149990 KM in the same time.

The computer's electrical signals would need to travel FTL in order for this to even be conceivable. Else, it would almost definitely be a disaster every time.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I think it likely that we'll require true AI in order to solve ftl.

 

[Ruptga]

So I was thinking about this the other day again. There's something (well many things but this in particular has my current attention) that I don't understand about how any FTL would work.

Collision detection. Particularly things that aren't large. For the sake of the example, lets talk about a softball sized space rock. Not microscopic, not something you're going to see on a telescope. Assume we have some kind of scan that can detect stuff in space. How does the scanner work while travelling at FTL speed? In my mind I'm thinking of some kind of futuristic radar-esque device that would send out a wave of some kind and wait for the bounce back, or some other similar mechanism. Even if you can project the wave while travelling at FTL speed, it would need the ability to extend in front of you and return to you in a sufficiently fast time that would allow for the signal to be sent, received, interpreted, and any course corrections adjusted. Relative to FTL speeds, that would take a hella long time. If it takes, lets say, one half second for the wave to reach 10 km in front, return (or not, I suppose), into the computer, turn the rudder, at the speed of light you would travel an additional ~149990 KM in the same time.

The computer's electrical signals would need to travel FTL in order for this to even be conceivable. Else, it would almost definitely be a disaster every time.

Yeah it's a thing.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Actually we need to come up with teleportation before FTL travel. Then you build a shield out of whatever portal the teleporter would use so that you teleport objects behind you as you run into them. Though if you can travel faster than the frame rate at which molecules move you can just frame skip through everything. It works in Kerbal Space Program.

 

[Ruptga]

Actually we need to come up with teleportation before FTL travel. Then you build a shield out of whatever portal the teleporter would use so that you teleport objects behind you as you run into them. Though if you can travel faster than the frame rate at which molecules move you can just frame skip through everything. It works in Kerbal Space Program.

That's also a thing.