What exactly is objectionable about Ms Clinton?

[CallMeJoe]

Originally posted by: gururu2
there is no escaping the fact that Hilary will share many of Bill's ideals, i mean ffs, they have been married for 30 years. and it is idiotic to neglect the white house experience that hilary has due to this, deserved or undeserved. that being said, bill left office after 2 terms with an extremely high approval rating. this was in spite of republican efforts to make his private life a huge political issue (completely based on semantics). approval ratings are not random, fickle thoughts of America for their leaders, they truly reflect the popular opinion. if America thinks their leaders are doing a good job, what else do you want? Now hilary has been subject to all of the decision making and management during the clinton administration, and clearly knows how to do the job to meet America's approval. whether she will actually do it or not is a personal judgment, but the fact remains: she not only knows how it is done, she has the man behind it as her closest confidant. no other candidate can claim that. and if for some reason you thought clinton was a bad president, you do not share the popular liberal consensus and should vote republican or green anyway.

1. More than just semantics. I have to agree with those here who question the man's honesty; Slick Willie seems a particularly apt nickname.

2. Bill Clinton was, at best, mediocre. Most of the good of the Clinton presidency stemmed from the gridlock of the Clinton White House vs. the Gingrich/Dole/Lott led Congress. The Republican Congress held the President in check and vice versa.

3. Capitalization and Punctuation can make your posts much easier to read.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Speak for yourself I guess. How incredibly naive. Most of us choose to increase our net worth. And will NEVER allow the government to take it away from us.

Communism didn't work.

Communism didn't work primarily because of the argument regarding democracy that I made above, and which Jhnnn chose to ignore.
Despite his false arguments, a society cannot retain a balanced democratic government on an economic basis alone. A democracy cannot, for example, be sustainable with only a single political party no matter how economically equal the people might be (which brings up larger points about how no single party system could possibly result in economic equality etc etc but that's another thread). Hence, communism fails, as would any other ideology that would follow communism in making the same mistake.
Democracy is not an ideal, nor something done from idealistic motives, but a kind of political truce from necessity. With no single entity able to achieve total control, the diverse entities compromise by spreading control to as many as possible.

 

[Jhhnn]

From vic-

"Leftist! Leftist! Leftist!"

Even when I agree with him, he attacks-

I said-

Face it, PJ- for the rightwing, democracy itself is "leftist", and any sort of progressive tax system is undesirable, even though it's a shared feature of all modern democracies. It has to be...

Meanwhile, the attempt to characterize Hillary as "Leftist" is one of the lamest smears currently in vogue. Part of the reason she's not more popular with Dems in general is that she's too far right to suit 'em... meaning htat about half the electorate must be commies, too...

To which vic replies-

Jhnnn, however, is your typical ATPN moron troll. He wouldn't know democracy if it bit him on the ass.

Why? Because I offer an irrefutably true fact about modern democracies?

I offer-

Thanks for the ad hom, vic- It's the last resort of the argumentatively challenged, the language of intellectual cowardice and emotional insecurity.

to which he replies with another ad-hom-

It's not an ad hom when it's true and directly addressed to your own argument (or lack thereof).
You have no clue what you're talking about and are just trolling moronic ideological bullsh!t and partisan hackery in a desperate and vain attempt to keep people from noticing that you know absolutely nothing about basic polisci or civics.
I swear, you can't make it through a single sentence without spouting some vitriolic remark about "right wing" this and "the evil rich" that..

"Evil Rich"? I've never said that, so he adds false attribution to his list of invective...

It goes on from there. I offer that

As you've pointed out, the problem with the Clintons is that they've been entirely too UN-willing to force greater compromise at the top, which is what'll be required to restore some sort of political and economic balance. They're too easy.

and

What you point out wrt China, Pabster, is basically what I said at the top of the page- that the Clintons have been unwilling to force enough compromise at the top- Who do you think has led and financed the industrialization of China- the tooth fairy? or American Capitalists?

To which he replies-

And you are completely wrong about the Clintons. Ridiculously wrong. They are consummate compromisers and well-renowned for it. That is one reason why I have always been a huge fan of Bill, and I voted for him both times.

Huh? I just said that, repeatedly, but I still get invective-

So like I said, it isn't ad hom when it's true and directly relevant to the discussion at hand. Ad Hominem would be if I claimed you were an idiot and therefore you were wrong. Quite the opposite, I long ago proved you wrong based on the facts, and THEN called you an idiot (which I do only because you are so arrogantly pompous about your brainwashing).

What facts? You haven't offered any facts at all, just your opinion... and the usual vitriol.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't like her because she is a corporate fascist who will govern far to far to the right and continue to lead us down a path to destruction.

Wrong way.

She's a socialist, mainly. The government is spending enough money on "wealth redistribution" already.

 

[gururu2]

Originally posted by: CallMeJoe

1. More than just semantics. I have to agree with those here who question the man's honesty; Slick Willie seems a particularly apt nickname.

2. Bill Clinton was, at best, mediocre. Most of the good of the Clinton presidency stemmed from the gridlock of the Clinton White House vs. the Gingrich/Dole/Lott led Congress. The Republican Congress held the President in check and vice versa.

3. Capitalization and Punctuation can make your posts much easier to read.

1. its a good thing hes slick or else his charity foundation might crumble
http://www.clintonfoundation.org/index.htm

2. hmm, you must be out of touch
http://uspolitics.about.com/od...istorical_approval.htm

3. you're not supposed to capitalize words mid sentence.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Why? Because I offer an irrefutably true fact about modern democracies?

Hmmm.... let's see...

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
democracy itself is "leftist", and any sort of progressive tax system is undesirable, even though it's a shared feature of all modern democracies. It has to be. Those of extreme wealth would much prefer the ancient regime where they collected taxes rather than paying them...

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Modern democracies, other than in the infantile conceptualization of the rightwing and some so called libertarians, have certain goals wrt the whole idea of public welfare and equality of opportunity, something that the whole idea of unlimited wealth accumulation by a very few seeks to deny. Democracy *is* an ideology, and it depends on certain conditions being met- "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite"- conditions not fulfilled by economic serfdom and media control by the few.

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Capitalism may be the engine of democracy, that's undeniable, but it doesn't know how to steer, other than to compete in ways that ultimately lead to monopoly and oligopoly, which benefit only the investor class.

Which is the thrust of current political efforts from the Right, accelerated by the discredit of extreme voices on the other end of the spectrum and by their financing of so-called libertarian thinktanks, as well.

What passes for Libertarianism in this country is a thinly disguised veil for big money, and a lure for the simple minded who've seen too many John Wayne movies and actually believed what Ayn Rand had to say... people who don't realize that the frontier closed over 100 years ago, and who have an idealized conceptualization of what closed it...

And I'm not the one pushing for total control, at all. That distinction, and the origin of what has become class warfare, belongs with the other side, those who seek to abandon the partnership of America for other partners who'll work for less, providing a better profit margin and accelerated concentration of wealth and power. Even as they move to create more concentrated wealth and power on an international scale, they finance and nurture voices and movements seeking to limit the power of the people on a national level. Like it or not, "Smaller Govt" is no match for Big Business, which is just the way they like it... and why they promote the simplistic deception that is modern day Libertarianism...

Oops, no you didn't. What you did was exactly what I have been saying all along, which is defining democracy on the basis of economic equality alone, all the while ignoring other factors, like those of political diversity, which I have been arguing all along.

Originally posted by: Vic
No, they're not really. Just like Bill, Hillary's policies tend strongly towards the corporatist Third Way agenda.

Jhnnn, however, is your typical ATPN moron troll. He wouldn't know democracy if it bit him on the ass. Democracy is not an ideology. It is neither left nor right. It has nothing to do with wealth distribution or taxes. It is a system of political representation and decision-making. No more. No less. If the people decide upon an "unfair" system of taxation, that is still democracy, because it was the people that decided. Likewise the other way around.

Originally posted by: Vic
You are not entirely incorrect though, you're just deeply confused by your own partisan hackery. While not actually defined by it, democracy does require a balance of powers in order to be successful. This balance should consist of economic (as you focus on), political, and military equilibrium spread throughout the diversity of the people, balanced by rule of law to protect basic human rights and civil liberties. But you don't actually believe in that, but instead push for total control of a single political agenda and power, regardless of the potential abuses and with a strong focus of hatred of those who don't share your political ideology and agenda, which is why you always stress the economic aspect over all the others. Wouldn't want anyone to notice that your agenda would be unbalanced politically and not result in a sustainable democracy, now would we?

Originally posted by: Vic
Communism didn't work primarily because of the argument regarding democracy that I made above, and which Jhnnn chose to ignore.
Despite his false arguments, a society cannot retain a balanced democratic government on an economic basis alone. A democracy cannot, for example, be sustainable with only a single political party no matter how economically equal the people might be (which brings up larger points about how no single party system could possibly result in economic equality etc etc but that's another thread). Hence, communism fails, as would any other ideology that would follow communism in making the same mistake.
Democracy is not an ideal, nor something done from idealistic motives, but a kind of political truce from necessity. With no single entity able to achieve total control, the diverse entities compromise by spreading control to as many as possible.

And strange, didn't I say earlier that Hillary is neither communist nor leftist but Third Way?

I'm not attacking you, Jhnnn, because you agreed with me in certain areas. I'm attacking you because you're an idiot ideologue with a religious-like zealotry in your political beliefs and your espousal of them.
Listen carefully: political diversity is good and necessary for democracy, and people are not evil solely because they hold differing political opinions. Furthermore, the ability to hold those differing opinions is an inherent civil right basic to liberal philosophy and essential to the sustainability of any democracy.

So while you might argue the potential horrors of economic inequality that are indeed a threat from the far right, you yourself both ignore and represent the potential horrors of political inequality which are in fact the threat of the far left.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: ConstipatedVigilante

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't like her because she is a corporate fascist who will govern far to far to the right and continue to lead us down a path to destruction.

Wrong way.

She's a socialist, mainly. The government is spending enough money on "wealth redistribution" already.

she's actually a centrist... very different from a socialist.

 

[Obsoleet]

She is a shill for the Chinese. Her husband was too.

Not Americans. Not worthy of the White House.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: ConstipatedVigilante

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't like her because she is a corporate fascist who will govern far to far to the right and continue to lead us down a path to destruction.

Wrong way.

She's a socialist, mainly. The government is spending enough money on "wealth redistribution" already.

she's actually a centrist... very different from a socialist.

I bet it's tough to see through all of that wool!

 

[CallMeJoe]

Originally posted by: gururu2
its a good thing hes slick or else his charity foundation might crumble

Many people of questionable character established charitable foundations to redeem their reputations. Mr. Clinton just follows the lead of the great Robber Barons of the 19th century.

hmm, you must be out of touch

I guess opinion polls are the final word.

you're not supposed to capitalize words mid sentence.

Please tell Mr. Franklin and Mr. Jefferson that Capitalization for Emphasis is forbidden. Then you can correct the documents in which they used this technique. Just don't let anyone see who did it.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: ConstipatedVigilante

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't like her because she is a corporate fascist who will govern far to far to the right and continue to lead us down a path to destruction.

Wrong way.

She's a socialist, mainly. The government is spending enough money on "wealth redistribution" already.

she's actually a centrist... very different from a socialist.

I bet it's tough to see through all of that wool!

? that makes a hell of a lot of sense.

she's a centrist, not s socialist. i don't quite understand how there's any debate here, but that's it. there shouldn't be any discussion. it's constipatedvigilante calling the sky brown and then someone saying, "well, it's actually blue."

 

[gururu2]

Originally posted by: CallMeJoe

Please tell Mr. Franklin and Mr. Jefferson that Capitalization for Emphasis is forbidden. Then you can correct the documents in which they used this technique. Just don't let anyone see who did it.

i guess i will also start supporting slavery too.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Obsoleet
She is a shill for the Chinese. Her husband was too.

Not Americans. Not worthy of the White House.

Nah... the Third Way mixed economy view is just strongly corporatist and globalist. And Walmart is based in Arkansas, remember?

The biggest problem I tend to have here on ATPN is that political ideological extremists can't seem to understand that the members of the "Elite" don't believe in political ideologies. Just like religious zealots can't seem to understand that the Pope doesn't really believe in God. These beliefs are just tools used by the powerful to keep the unwashed masses in line.

Case in point: most of the far left here tends to be strongly anti-religious. To an extent way beyond mere atheism. In the meantime, Hillary their hero is a Southern Baptist who has private prayer meetings with Billy Graham.
That small example is an awfully big disconnect right there, and yet one that is by no means uncommon in American politics, both left and right. And how do these far-ists keep from noticing them? By equating and accusing anyone who dares bring them up as automatically being members of their political enemy.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Originally posted by: gururu2

Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
Please tell Mr. Franklin and Mr. Jefferson that Capitalization for Emphasis is forbidden. Then you can correct the documents in which they used this technique. Just don't let anyone see who did it.

i guess i will also start supporting slavery too.

I was unaware that Mr. Franklin supported that peculiar institution. Do you have any citations?

 

[Obsoleet]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Obsoleet
She is a shill for the Chinese. Her husband was too.

Not Americans. Not worthy of the White House.

Nah... the Third Way mixed economy view is just strongly corporatist and globalist. And Walmart is based in Arkansas, remember?

Walmart is the enemy of the state.
They are who pushed everyone else to china out of competitive necessity.

Capitalism has gotten out of control and its time to reign it in. It's working against the people who call themselves Americans.

As far as religion, its a moot point. If someone votes for someone because they pray with Billy Graham (or don't), then they are morons.

 

[gururu2]

Originally posted by: CallMeJoe

Originally posted by: gururu2

Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
Please tell Mr. Franklin and Mr. Jefferson that Capitalization for Emphasis is forbidden. Then you can correct the documents in which they used this technique. Just don't let anyone see who did it.

i guess i will also start supporting slavery too.

I was unaware that Mr. Franklin supported that peculiar institution. Do you have any citations?

he released his slaves 5 yrs before he died

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Obsoleet

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Obsoleet
She is a shill for the Chinese. Her husband was too.

Not Americans. Not worthy of the White House.

Nah... the Third Way mixed economy view is just strongly corporatist and globalist. And Walmart is based in Arkansas, remember?

Walmart is the enemy of the state.
They are who pushed everyone else to china out of competitive necessity.

Capitalism has gotten out of control and its time to reign it in. It's working against the people who call themselves Americans.

As far as religion, its a moot point. If someone votes for someone because they pray with Billy Graham (or don't), then they are morons.

Did Dave get a new account?

 

[Obsoleet]

?

I'm sorry you don't like the truth I'm laying on your simple mind, but I'm an American citizen who's tired of (probably) what is your BS dragging this country down.

I don't know who you are or where you're beliefs lie, but more than likely you are part of the problem with America today. Playing your little party politics like Monday night football.
No, I'm not Dave.

 

[gururu2]

Originally posted by: Obsoleet
?

I'm sorry you don't like the truth I'm laying on your simple mind, but I'm an American citizen who's tired of (probably) what is your BS dragging this country down.

I don't know who you are or where you're beliefs lie, but more than likely you are part of the problem with America today. Playing your little party politics like Monday night football.
No, I'm not Dave.

if there is a problem with America, its that everyone feels so entitled to things beyond their needs that they eventually feel victimized. thats right, if you feel you are a victim, you are part of the problem. take charge of whatever part of your life you disagree with and live on. if someone is happy and thinks a politician is good, they do not deserve to be attacked because you feel like a victim.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Obsoleet
?

I'm sorry you don't like the truth I'm laying on your simple mind, but I'm an American citizen who's tired of (probably) what is your BS dragging this country down.

I don't know who you are or where you're beliefs lie, but more than likely you are part of the problem with America today. Playing your little party politics like Monday night football.
No, I'm not Dave.

Heh. I'm about as nonpartisan as they get. Read the thread, where I've been attacked from both partisan sides.
And you sure sound like Dave the super-troll, playing the "real American" card while accusing as many other Americans as possible of treason (or similar).
Sorry, pal, this is a democracy. That means, right or wrong, it doesn't always go the way you think it should.

 

[Drakkon]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
"Ownership Society" Drakkan? You made me laugh.

Fewer Americans own anything of lasting value than at any time in the recent past- they don't "own" their car, they lease it. They don't "own" their house, they remortgaged it for 125% of appraised value at the peak of a speculative wave, and all they "own" is the debt attached to it. They don't "own" their furniture or their electronic gadgets, or even the clothes on their backs- they're paying 21% interest on the creditcard debt used to acquire that stuff, and it's wearing out faster than they can pay it off...

Being owned is more like it...

LMAO reading comprehension suck much? You just proved my point. "Ownership society" is a QUOTE FROM HILARY thus the quotes around my post and the attribution to Hilary from a speach made.
I'm totally with you on the rest of your post but you just "owned" yourself there bud.

 

[AAjax]

5 years old eh?

She....Has got..... a big........poo-poo head.

(I adjusted to 3 years old to make sure you understood )

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Obsoleet
Capitalism has gotten out of control and its time to reign it in. It's working against the people who call themselves Americans.

Sounds like Hillary through and through.

What do you propose? Communism?

 

[AAjax]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't like her because she is a corporate fascist who will govern far to far to the right and continue to lead us down a path to destruction.

But ya, Moonbeam has got it about spot on

 

[ranmaniac]

She likes snatch.