What does Cuba look like after Castro?

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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Castro will probably be dead in 6-12 months.

The communist regime, as we have known it, cannot possibly survive Castro's death.
So, two questions:
1) what will the future hold for Cuba?
2) will that matter to anyone other than the Cubans?

Castro wasn't just a ruler, he was a poet. The purpose his government wasn't just to
transform Cuba but, more important, to revolutionize Latin America and the rest of the
Third World and confront American "imperialism."Castro did not rule for the sake of
ruling. He ruled for the sake of revolution.

When Raul takes over, he wont be able to fill the tremendous vacuum that Fidel will
leave. Castro served a vision... Raul served the regime. The "poetry" will be dead, and the
beancounters will take over. When Castro dies, Chavez and Evo Morales of Bolivia are
not going to turn to Raul for inspiration and legitimacy. No... Raul is going to be looking
to Venezuela for cheap oil, while Chavez takes over as the leader of the Latin American
left.

I think Cuba's in a Catch-22. For the regime to survive post-Castro, it must transform its
economic system. But transforming the economic system will take away the
government's stability. But in the end, the US isn't the one that should -or can- make
Cuba a normal country. They have to do it themselves.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
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Meh, I think Cuba will be fine post Castro. The US has been continuing the embargo on Cuba for the last several decades simply out of pride. It gives us no reasonable benefit. I imagine that once Castro dies, we will have a chance to change our crazy foreign policy towards them without losing too much pride/prestige, and simply having the largest economy on earth with which to trade/have tourists from will be a huge boon to them.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Meh, I think Cuba will be fine post Castro. The US has been continuing the embargo on Cuba for the last several decades simply out of pride. It gives us no reasonable benefit. I imagine that once Castro dies, we will have a chance to change our crazy foreign policy towards them without losing too much pride/prestige, and simply having the largest economy on earth with which to trade/have tourists from will be a huge boon to them.

win.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,734
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Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Meh, I think Cuba will be fine post Castro. The US has been continuing the embargo on Cuba for the last several decades simply out of pride. It gives us no reasonable benefit. I imagine that once Castro dies, we will have a chance to change our crazy foreign policy towards them without losing too much pride/prestige, and simply having the largest economy on earth with which to trade/have tourists from will be a huge boon to them.

win.

It isn't just pride, it's the Democratic and Republican craving for the anti-Castro Florida Cuban vote.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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It isn't just pride, it's the Democratic and Republican craving for the anti-Castro Florida Cuban vote.

Well not really. The Cuban expatriates have in the past, and continue to vote overwhelmingly Republican. They aren't being courted too heavily by the Democrats. In fact, if you remember the Elian Gonzales thing, Clinton acted specifically against the wishes of the exiles.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,734
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
It isn't just pride, it's the Democratic and Republican craving for the anti-Castro Florida Cuban vote.

Well not really. The Cuban expatriates have in the past, and continue to vote overwhelmingly Republican. They aren't being courted too heavily by the Democrats. In fact, if you remember the Elian Gonzales thing, Clinton acted specifically against the wishes of the exiles.

Yes, really!
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
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It'll have huge pockets of tourist places for Americans, and really poor inner city ghettos.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It isn't just pride, it's the Democratic and Republican craving for the anti-Castro Florida Cuban vote.

Well not really. The Cuban expatriates have in the past, and continue to vote overwhelmingly Republican. They aren't being courted too heavily by the Democrats. In fact, if you remember the Elian Gonzales thing, Clinton acted specifically against the wishes of the exiles.

Yes, really!

No, not so much!

The reason for why we continue the embargo is so much more then courting a bunch of retards in south florida.... please don't ruin this topic too. I beg of you.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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I somewhat disagree with all takes here----Fidel has been a big boon to the average Cuban. But the well off and the corrupt left Cuba in droveswhen Fidel took over---with many settling in the South Florida area.

To those folks--especially the first generation types---Fidel has two horns and a tail--this somewhat changes with the second generation types---and has largely disappeared with the third generation
who have no desire to return to Cuba.

Meanwhile---the USA---does everything to screw up the Cuban economy--including trying to embargo them on everything they can---and then stands up and says---see for your own eyes--communism does not work---which is a bunch of BS---and everyone else in the world knows that its another case of US imperialism.

But for Cuba---Fidel has been a mixed bag--Cuba has excellent medical care---and the average Cuban is far better off than under the super corrupt Batista---and Cuba will survive when Fidel dies.
Short term---power is likely to pass to his brother Raul---but in another decade he will likely die also.

But the USA has been following a super stupid foreign policy towards Cuba---and Fidel death could be a US opportunity to extend an Olive branch---which could be a win win situation for the US and Cuba.

But if any think the Cuban people will rebel and have a desire to throw off the yoke are still stuck in the era of the bay of pigs---the proper solution long term is diplomatic---not military--and the USA
has an opportunity to change its policy and let an old grudge end with Fidel---we had that same opportunity in Iran when the Aiatola Khomani died---and sqaundered it.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
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Has Fidel really been such a big boon to the average Cuban when Cuba would have been THE worldwide vacation destination had not Fidel come to power? And let's not forget about his countless human rights abuses in order to maintain power.

Will his regime survive him? Unfortunately for Cuba, I think so.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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Originally posted by: Vic
Has Fidel really been such a big boon to the average Cuban when Cuba would have been THE worldwide vacation destination had not Fidel come to power? And let's not forget about his countless human rights abuses in order to maintain power.

Will his regime survive him? Unfortunately for Cuba, I think so.

Come on Vic, Cuba is fine, they have a lower still birth rate and longer avg life span compared to the United States. Or at least that is what their govt run hospitals are telling us.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
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Overall Castro has definitely been bad news for Cuba. It is only fair to note however that our insane economic policy towards them has significantly contributed to their economic problems. While you can blame Castro for precipitating the conflict with the US, I think that we take a heavy amount of blame for 50 years of embargo to no descernable purpose.

Yeah, Castro's an evil dictator.... I'm sure the world won't be too sorry to see him gone. In the pantheon of evil dicatators though, he's not particularly bad. Certainly not half-century embargo worthy if we're going by what we do to other people.
 

glugglug

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2002
5,340
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North Cuba (Miami-Dade county) will get along just fine without Castro, although they will be upset by the loss of Channel 6 as there will be less to watch on TV.

(It is actually against FCC rules to have channels 5 & 6 or 6 & 7 in the same broadcast area, but a special exception was made for the CIA broadcasting on 6 in Miami to out-broadcast what Castro had there. Without him, no more justification for breaking FCC regs).

South Cubans will migrate to North Cuba at a greater pace than the infrastructure of North Cuba can handle, and civil war will erupt between the two.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It isn't just pride, it's the Democratic and Republican craving for the anti-Castro Florida Cuban vote.

Well not really. The Cuban expatriates have in the past, and continue to vote overwhelmingly Republican. They aren't being courted too heavily by the Democrats. In fact, if you remember the Elian Gonzales thing, Clinton acted specifically against the wishes of the exiles.

Yes, really!

No, not so much!

The reason for why we continue the embargo is so much more then courting a bunch of retards in south florida.... please don't ruin this topic too. I beg of you.

I'll bold for you if you'll bold for me:

Fidel Decides US Presidential Elections

Election by popular vote would ensure that the Florida Cuban vote doesn't have undue influence

by Steven Hill

When Fidel Castro recently underwent intestinal surgery, suddenly there was a whirl of news stories in the US media, the type of attention usually reserved for rock stars and champion athletes. What is this love-hate fascination with the ruler of a small island nation? Is it the tempestuous Cold War history, Cuba's close proximity to Florida, memories of the boy Elian, or the beautiful beaches and palm trees?

Certainly all of those are part of the mystique. But when it comes to our political leaders' obsession, the answer is more fundamental. Simply put, Fidel is hugely responsible for who gets elected president of the United States. That may sound strange, but it's true. And it illustrates the worst aspects of our peculiar system of electing the president.

The presidency is the only elected office where a candidate can win a majority of the popular vote but lose the election. Instead, a candidate wins by capturing a majority of Electoral College votes won state by state in winner-take-all contests.

Most states are strongholds of either the Democratic or Republican parties, creating a presidential battlefield of "safe" states and "undecided" states. As a campaign strategist, the winning calculus is simple: you ignore the safe states and focus on the handful of battleground states that decide the winner.

Yet as we saw in the last two presidential elections, two battleground states were most important-Ohio and Florida. Florida, our fourth largest state with 27 electoral votes-one-tenth of the number needed for victory-is the biggest of prizes in the presidential sweepstakes. Voters in Florida are much more important to who wins the presidential election than voters in any other state except Ohio.

The extremely close presidential race in Florida is heavily influenced by a particular group of voters: Cuban Americans. They are a well-financed and vocal minority with a leadership of Cuban exiles that for decades has loved to hate Fidel. Both Democrats and Republicans fall all over themselves to court the Cuban vote, which comprises only one half of 1% of the US population. This special interest group has much greater influence than their size should warrant for no other reason than the crucial role that Florida plays in our presidential election.

Recall the fiasco around the Cuban boy Elian, the six-year-old who survived a nightmarish ordeal at sea, only to get caught in the nets of presidential campaign politics. Vice president Al Gore, who was running for president, disregarded his own administration's policy by making a pilgrimage to Florida to support the Cuban leaders' bid to hold the boy in the US. The Clinton administration had to order law enforcement to forcibly remove Elian. It was a high stakes drama, yet if Elian had been Haitian instead of Cuban, or if his plight had unfolded in Wyoming, a solid GOP state with only three electoral votes, no one would have cared.

But events in Florida are dramatically amplified, especially when Cuba is involved. Anything related to Cuba degenerates into political pandering to the anti-Fidel vote, because small shifts in the Florida vote can have huge impacts.
=============

Your point that we maintain the relationship we do with Cuba out of pride is shallow. In order to understand the counterproductive nature of our policy toward Cuba we need to add this understanding of the power of the Cuban vote into the mixture. The Florida Cubans will not die when Castro does and their vote will remain important after his death and continue to influence our relationship with Cuba. What will influence our attitude toward a new Cuba will rest in part with the evolution and change in the new generations of Cubans coming on the scene and their evolving perspectives. Rapprochement with Cuba won't require politicians swallowing some imaginary national pride as it will a lack of fear that it won't cost a party the election. I think the death of Castro will take a good deal of steam out of the fanatical right winged faction of American Cubans, reduce their voting influence, and introduce the prospect of a more rational national policy toward Cuba.

While I agree the OP's point:

"I think Cuba's in a Catch-22. For the regime to survive post-Castro, it must transform its
economic system. But transforming the economic system will take away the
government's stability."

and also agree with the 'Cuba needs to do' portion of the following:

"But in the end, the US isn't the one that should -or can- make Cuba a normal country. They have to do it themselves."

I disagree that they need to do it all themselves. I see no reason why a rational US policy toward Cuba couldn't help them enormously with their catch 22. We still have power to help or hinder them.



 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
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Originally posted by: cwjerome
Castro wasn't just a ruler, he was a poet. The purpose his government wasn't just to
transform Cuba but, more important, to revolutionize Latin America and the rest of the
Third World and confront American "imperialism."Castro did not rule for the sake of
ruling. He ruled for the sake of revolution.
Yeah right. That's just what his talking points were. In reality, he ruled for the sake of ruling like all the other communist despots.

 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Overall Castro has definitely been bad news for Cuba. It is only fair to note however that our insane economic policy towards them has significantly contributed to their economic problems. While you can blame Castro for precipitating the conflict with the US, I think that we take a heavy amount of blame for 50 years of embargo to no descernable purpose.


You can't be serious. Why would someone assume that Cuba's economic problems are "significantly" the result of the US trade embargo? Don't answer that... I already know why. Whether a person is sympathetic to socialist/communist economic is really not important anyway.

Our friend Castro promised incredible economic improvements, but the economic improvements never came in the ways promised. When Castro "took" power, he argued that it was economic relations with the imperialists that impoverished Cuba. By the end of his rule, he had come to argue that it was the lack of economic relations with the imperialists that impoverished Cuba-- that the American embargo had strangled the country. That is absurd: Cuba could trade with Canada, the rest of Latin America, Europe, Asia and wherever it wanted. It was not locked out of the world. It wasn't even locked out of the United States, since third parties would facilitate trade. But then, Castro was always persuasive, even when completely incoherent.

I would argue that the trade embargo is an archaic political gesture and should have been lifted long ago. But I would not make the mistake a believing the embargo is to blame for Cuba's horrible economy.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
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Originally posted by: zephyrprime
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Castro wasn't just a ruler, he was a poet. The purpose his government wasn't just to
transform Cuba but, more important, to revolutionize Latin America and the rest of the
Third World and confront American "imperialism."Castro did not rule for the sake of
ruling. He ruled for the sake of revolution.
Yeah right. That's just what his talking points were. In reality, he ruled for the sake of ruling like all the other communist despots.

Well, you may be right to a small extent. I believe, however corrupt he was, Castro was also a true believer. At least he was for a long time... maybe he saw the failure of his rule and was simply too proud to change his tune at the end.

To me, this is the beginning of the end, and it sort of parallels the Soviet Union. Here's an excerpt:

"The difference between Josef Stalin and Leonid Brezhnev. It is not a difference in moral character but of imagination. Stalin was far more than a functionary. He was, in his own way, a visionary -- and was seen by his followers around the world as a visionary. When the Soviet Union fell into the hands of Brezhnev, it fell into the hands of a functionary. Stalin served a vision; Brezhnev served the regime. Stalin ruled absolutely; Brezhnev ruled by committee and consensus. Stalin was far more than the state and party apparatus; Brezhnev was far less.

Brezhnev's goal was preserving the Soviet state. There were many reasons for the fall of the Soviet Union, but at the core, the fact that mere survival had become its highest aim was what killed it. The Soviets still repeated lifelessly the Leninist and Stalinist slogans, but no one believed them -- and no one thought for one moment that Brezhnev believed them."

This will be the difference between the old and the new Cuba, the Castro and the Raul dichotomy.

 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Originally posted by: Lemon law
I somewhat disagree with all takes here----Fidel has been a big boon to the average Cuban. But the well off and the corrupt left Cuba in droveswhen Fidel took over---with many settling in the South Florida area.

To those folks--especially the first generation types---Fidel has two horns and a tail--this somewhat changes with the second generation types---and has largely disappeared with the third generation
who have no desire to return to Cuba.

Meanwhile---the USA---does everything to screw up the Cuban economy--including trying to embargo them on everything they can---and then stands up and says---see for your own eyes--communism does not work---which is a bunch of BS---and everyone else in the world knows that its another case of US imperialism.

But for Cuba---Fidel has been a mixed bag--Cuba has excellent medical care---and the average Cuban is far better off than under the super corrupt Batista---and Cuba will survive when Fidel dies.
Short term---power is likely to pass to his brother Raul---but in another decade he will likely die also.

But the USA has been following a super stupid foreign policy towards Cuba---and Fidel death could be a US opportunity to extend an Olive branch---which could be a win win situation for the US and Cuba.

But if any think the Cuban people will rebel and have a desire to throw off the yoke are still stuck in the era of the bay of pigs---the proper solution long term is diplomatic---not military--and the USA
has an opportunity to change its policy and let an old grudge end with Fidel---we had that same opportunity in Iran when the Aiatola Khomani died---and sqaundered it.



A majority of people who left Cuba left because they were the wealthy land owning families that enslaved the average cuban. The refugees as we refer to them are really the people that cuba wanted to get rid of.

That being said, we will most likely invade cuba, if we have the resources. We have been eyeing that piece of property for some time now. President Polk (who you may remember almost tripled our country with his manifest destiny war) in the late 1840's was considering a campaign to get it. The spanish-american war was basically forced for a chance to let them join the union. Cuba actually stuck it to us and we had to take it to save face (since we told the rest of the world we were in the war to free them). When they were over taken by commies we were so mad we tried various attempts to overthrow castro and put in a puppet gov't.
 

Beowulf

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2001
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Those who had money left in the early years just about every Cuban who came from the mid-70's to now is the same as any other Cuban.This includes various people mixed in the Mariel,political prisoners who left via the Peru embassy,and the Cuban refugee's who arrived on makeshift rafts.

Infact various family members of Cuban generals now reside in Southwest FL.That information was said on local television in Miami by ex Cuban General Jose Quevedo Perez who left Cuba in 2003.Also from Delfin Fernandez who worked for Castro and whos father still works for the Castro regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delfin_Fernandez