What does a coder do day to day, and do we need so many?

Mar 15, 2003
12,668
103
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"Coding," obviously...

But, seriously - an acquaintance of mine was talking about the social culture at his moderately sized dot com (you know the name) and, other than the coffee/rock climbing/talking about geek culture I had a hard time figuring out what exactly he does at his coder job day to day. His department has over 150 coders working full time (extended hours too) for a website that's not dissimilar to yelp - what exactly does over 7000 man hours a week of coding on a site that's live and doesn't evolve that much buy the company? We're also culturally obsessed with coding - teach your kids to code! your dog can code in a week! Is there really a sustainable need for this obsession, and why wouldn't these jobs be outsourced anyways?

Yes, i'm a little jealous - his rent is 5 times mine and he's kinda a pretty boy slacker
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,675
6,043
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- create new products that the business asks for
- make changes to existing products that the business asks for
- investigate and fix problems in existing products
- create automated tests to detect when future changes break existing functionality
- nef on ATOT
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
63,369
19,741
136
"Coding," obviously...

But, seriously - an acquaintance of mine was talking about the social culture at his moderately sized dot com (you know the name) and, other than the coffee/rock climbing/talking about geek culture I had a hard time figuring out what exactly he does at his coder job day to day. His department has over 150 coders working full time (extended hours too) for a website that's not dissimilar to yelp - what exactly does over 7000 man hours a week of coding on a site that's live and doesn't evolve that much buy the company? We're also culturally obsessed with coding - teach your kids to code! your dog can code in a week! Is there really a sustainable need for this obsession, and why wouldn't these jobs be outsourced anyways?

Yes, i'm a little jealous - his rent is 5 times mine and he's kinda a pretty boy slacker
Some people want their shit done within a reasonable timeline, AND fully functional.
That does seem like a pretty sizeable workforce for what you describe, however. But just because the site is up and running now doesn't mean there's no work to do--they could be working on the next version.
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,675
6,043
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also be able to learn completely new languages and libraries for writing code every few years

and be able to figure out what exactly is causing a problem in a program with a few million lines of code within a relatively short amount of time

and be able to understand the areas of the business for which you need to write code

and be able to write code that meets performance requirements and doesn't suck to maintain in the future
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,675
6,043
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Yes, i'm a little jealous - his rent is 5 times mine and he's kinda a pretty boy slacker

you need to show him who the real slacker is!
DVjZjkk.gif


also remember to tell him that paying a ton for rent is just a waste of money
 
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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
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Is it really 150 coders or 150 people working on the site? That would include different sort of jobs like art, UX design, etc.
 

Carson Dyle

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2012
8,173
524
126
Is it really 150 coders or 150 people working on the site? That would include different sort of jobs like art, UX design, etc.

Sales and marketing, office managers, project managers. If it's a review site, there's probably a boatload of people who do nothing but sift through the content and moderate it. I'd also bet they have additional sites and other businesses that capitalize on the data they collect.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
71,126
14,002
126
www.anyf.ca
Most coders work in India and probably take tech support calls between compiles. :p When it happens to compile with no errors, then it's ready to ship, and they move on to the next customer.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Sales and marketing, office managers, project managers. If it's a review site, there's probably a boatload of people who do nothing but sift through the content and moderate it. I'd also bet they have additional sites and other businesses that capitalize on the data they collect.

Yeah, I'm just wondering if the OP is misunderstanding his friend as there being 150 coders vs. 150 people working on the end-product and its related services. If I had to guess, depending on the workplace, most engineering-related workplaces may be around 10-15% coders out of the staff?
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,844
1,049
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Doubtful it's 150 coders unless they run a large shop of the consulting variety or run as globally large as FB. For a given site like Yelp, the left hand has to talk to the right hand and with that many people it's too many chefs in the kitchen.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,733
6,609
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With software development, you 100% get what you pay for. So if you outsource stuff for cheap, you're going to get a crappy product. That's why as someone in the field I am 100% not worried about dev jobs being outsourced for cheaper. There is always demand for good developers since the mediocore ones are a dime a dozen, and it shows in a lot of their work.

As a "coder" myself (Senior Software Architect who does development work as day to day) you aren't just there writing code for 8 hours a day. I work in spurts. Then after I finish something and get a chunk done, I chill for a bit and let my mind reset and refresh, then I go back. Some days I am more productive than others too, just depends on my mood and what I'm working on.

There is also A LOT more that goes into (good) software development than your average person knows or would even care to understand.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
63,369
19,741
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With software development, you 100% get what you pay for. So if you outsource stuff for cheap, you're going to get a crappy product.
Sometimes you don't even get that... I've seen multiple projects in other departments that ended up being scrapped after months of outsourced work being done, with five or six figure budgets spent.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,733
6,609
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Sometimes you don't even get that... I've seen multiple projects in other departments that ended up being scrapped after months of outsourced work being done, with five or six figure budgets spent.
That is my point - you paid cheap to outsource it and it will cost you more in the long run. Had good developers been hired up front, which would have cost more money, in the long run they would have a better product for cheap. Everyone wants to get good quality software dead cheap, it's just not going to happen. The good developers go where they get paid.

That is why I LOL when I've been just browsing jobs out west in San Diego, and I've talked to companies hiring "Senior Software Engineers" for under $100k/yr. That shit is laughable, especially in a place that has such a high cost of living. And I'm in a high cost of living area too (right outside of DC). Then still over 8 months later, I still see the same job listing open.

That basically sums up why government software is for the most part garbage, because the lowest bidder typically wins contracts.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
That basically sums up why government software is for the most part garbage, because the lowest bidder typically wins contracts.

That's where you usually see people bid using cost-plus contracts. You usually bid the cheapest with the bare minimum, and then introduce changes as you go along. The only hope is that you don't introduce too many changes that put your contract on the radar. The last thing you want is to get Nunn-McCurdy'd.

Based on my experience, I'd argue that government software sucks for other reasons that are specific to each individual product.
 

LevelSea

Senior member
Jan 29, 2013
942
53
91
That's where you usually see people bid using cost-plus contracts. You usually bid the cheapest with the bare minimum, and then introduce changes as you go along. The only hope is that you don't introduce too many changes that put your contract on the radar. The last thing you want is to get Nunn-McCurdy'd.

Based on my experience, I'd argue that government software sucks for other reasons that are specific to each individual product.
atl_wall_chart.jpg
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,483
35,161
136
Somebody's got to keep dinking with google apps, those apps don't just dink themselves.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Sometimes you don't even get that... I've seen multiple projects in other departments that ended up being scrapped after months of outsourced work being done, with five or six figure budgets spent.
I've been on a project recently where on the first week of being added to it, I threw out 99% of the code that a development team from overseas had been working on for ten months and rewrote all of their work in 45 days with the help of two developers here in Toronto.

Superior experience and problem solving skills in your development staff can mean a 90% reduction in cost and complexity. It just so happens that Western style educations seem to breed most of the best developers out there (I think it has a lot to do with us being willing to challenge business side decisions; I often counter requests by telling someone I can give them 95% of what they want at 50% of the cost, and they usually agree to go that way).

And about the overall question of what 150 developers do all day - as rh71 said, unless you're Facebook, you don't actually have that many developers on staff; they must be including designers, server ops people, sales, HR... But lots happens behind the scenes that you never see - iterating on the current product, building the fresh next version of it, writing code to generate reports, to make the backend handle more customers/traffic, and so on. It sort of never ends.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,733
6,609
126
That's where you usually see people bid using cost-plus contracts. You usually bid the cheapest with the bare minimum, and then introduce changes as you go along. The only hope is that you don't introduce too many changes that put your contract on the radar. The last thing you want is to get Nunn-McCurdy'd.

Based on my experience, I'd argue that government software sucks for other reasons that are specific to each individual product.
Yeah I won't disagree with you there. My experience has been that usually they hire cheap people to come on board then they basically work the PM's to death and the PM's are basically their bitch.

"Oh this will take you 6 months to do? Okay well you have 2 months" then after 2 months they wonder why the software is complete and utter shit. This is a big time reason I left my previous company.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
One more thing - I'm obviously biased, but I suspect the obsession with developers revolves around the fact that every company in the world is becoming a software company. I didn't think this up myself; Marc Andreessen made this argument back in 2011 and it's kind of caught fire:

Wall Street Journal - Why Software Is Eating The World

...

Today, the world's largest bookseller, Amazon, is a software company—its core capability is its amazing software engine for selling virtually everything online, no retail stores necessary. On top of that, while Borders was thrashing in the throes of impending bankruptcy, Amazon rearranged its web site to promote its Kindle digital books over physical books for the first time. Now even the books themselves are software.

Today's largest video service by number of subscribers is a software company: Netflix. How Netflix eviscerated Blockbuster is an old story, but now other traditional entertainment providers are facing the same threat. Comcast, Time Warner and others are responding by transforming themselves into software companies with efforts such as TV Everywhere, which liberates content from the physical cable and connects it to smartphones and tablets.

Today's dominant music companies are software companies, too: Apple's iTunes, Spotify and Pandora. Traditional record labels increasingly exist only to provide those software companies with content. Industry revenue from digital channels totaled $4.6 billion in 2010, growing to 29% of total revenue from 2% in 2004.

Today's fastest growing entertainment companies are videogame makers—again, software—with the industry growing to $60 billion from $30 billion five years ago. And the fastest growing major videogame company is Zynga (maker of games including FarmVille), which delivers its games entirely online. Zynga's first-quarter revenues grew to $235 million this year, more than double revenues from a year earlier. Rovio, maker of Angry Birds, is expected to clear $100 million in revenue this year (the company was nearly bankrupt when it debuted the popular game on the iPhone in late 2009). Meanwhile, traditional videogame powerhouses like Electronic Arts and Nintendo have seen revenues stagnate and fall.

The best new movie production company in many decades, Pixar, was a software company. Disney—Disney!—had to buy Pixar, a software company, to remain relevant in animated movies.

Photography, of course, was eaten by software long ago. It's virtually impossible to buy a mobile phone that doesn't include a software-powered camera, and photos are uploaded automatically to the Internet for permanent archiving and global sharing. Companies like Shutterfly, Snapfish and Flickr have stepped into Kodak's place.

Today's largest direct marketing platform is a software company—Google. Now it's been joined by Groupon, Living Social, Foursquare and others, which are using software to eat the retail marketing industry. Groupon generated over $700 million in revenue in 2010, after being in business for only two years.

Today's fastest growing telecom company is Skype, a software company that was just bought by Microsoft for $8.5 billion. CenturyLink, the third largest telecom company in the U.S., with a $20 billion market cap, had 15 million access lines at the end of June 30—declining at an annual rate of about 7%. Excluding the revenue from its Qwest acquisition, CenturyLink's revenue from these legacy services declined by more than 11%. Meanwhile, the two biggest telecom companies, AT&T and Verizon, have survived by transforming themselves into software companies, partnering with Apple and other smartphone makers.

LinkedIn is today's fastest growing recruiting company. For the first time ever, on LinkedIn, employees can maintain their own resumes for recruiters to search in real time—giving LinkedIn the opportunity to eat the lucrative $400 billion recruiting industry.

Software is also eating much of the value chain of industries that are widely viewed as primarily existing in the physical world. In today's cars, software runs the engines, controls safety features, entertains passengers, guides drivers to destinations and connects each car to mobile, satellite and GPS networks. The days when a car aficionado could repair his or her own car are long past, due primarily to the high software content. The trend toward hybrid and electric vehicles will only accelerate the software shift—electric cars are completely computer controlled. And the creation of software-powered driverless cars is already under way at Google and the major car companies.

Today's leading real-world retailer, Wal-Mart, uses software to power its logistics and distribution capabilities, which it has used to crush its competition. Likewise for FedEx, which is best thought of as a software network that happens to have trucks, planes and distribution hubs attached. And the success or failure of airlines today and in the future hinges on their ability to price tickets and optimize routes and yields correctly—with software.

Oil and gas companies were early innovators in supercomputing and data visualization and analysis, which are crucial to today's oil and gas exploration efforts. Agriculture is increasingly powered by software as well, including satellite analysis of soils linked to per-acre seed selection software algorithms.

The financial services industry has been visibly transformed by software over the last 30 years. Practically every financial transaction, from someone buying a cup of coffee to someone trading a trillion dollars of credit default derivatives, is done in software. And many of the leading innovators in financial services are software companies, such as Square, which allows anyone to accept credit card payments with a mobile phone, and PayPal, which generated more than $1 billion in revenue in the second quarter of this year, up 31% over the previous year.

Health care and education, in my view, are next up for fundamental software-based transformation. My venture capital firm is backing aggressive start-ups in both of these gigantic and critical industries. We believe both of these industries, which historically have been highly resistant to entrepreneurial change, are primed for tipping by great new software-centric entrepreneurs.

...​
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
63,369
19,741
136
I've been on a project recently where on the first week of being added to it, I threw out 99% of the code that a development team from overseas had been working on for ten months and rewrote all of their work in 45 days with the help of two developers here in Toronto.
:lol:
It still makes me shake my head when I'm working with a customer, and their software side is all outsourced, and there's this whole team of developers on their side of the project, and from our company, it's just me.
 
Mar 15, 2003
12,668
103
106
Is it really 150 coders or 150 people working on the site? That would include different sort of jobs like art, UX design, etc.

To be fair, that's the combined team split among 3 locations (I'm not exactly sure if that includes say graphic designers or not).

The number seemed crazy based on the page being mostly user generated content, but there are factors I overlooked for sure. just seems like orgs could offshore a lot of this, even if some mission critical coders needed to be local. I guess my question really is more about the long term - everyone claims coding is the high demand field of the future, and I'm just wondering what's keeping the industry from heavily outsourcing like so many other fields (or over saturation hitting like lawyers did post the 90s boom)
 

Skeeedunt

Platinum Member
Oct 7, 2005
2,777
3
76
A programmer's day is full and meaningful. You have to:

- Meet about Gantt charts
- Fix code somebody else broke
- Roll back two days of work because UX decided you didn't need to add that button after all
- Figure out why unannounced, undocumented API changes broke your REST calls
- Wait for your computer to restart
- Talk about microservices
- Fix your broken merge
- Rewrite all your code in a non-object-oriented, unserialized, table-less, no header platform that a kid invented two weeks ago
- Wait for the server to restart
- This

just seems like orgs could offshore a lot of this, even if some mission critical coders needed to be local.

As others have pointed it out, it sure does "seem" this way until you try it. You've got management material written all over you!
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,675
6,043
136
Yeah, I'm just wondering if the OP is misunderstanding his friend as there being 150 coders vs. 150 people working on the end-product and its related services. If I had to guess, depending on the workplace, most engineering-related workplaces may be around 10-15% coders out of the staff?

yeah i work in a department of a couple hundred people, but only about %20 are developers