What do you think of 100% Restitution rather than retribution?

[cybrsage]

That's what civil lawsuits are for. But it may be difficult to get monetary compensation when the criminal has no money.

It is strange to have to go to court twice, and potentially be found guilty twice, for the same crime.

 

[Anarchist420]

Good point also. I don't think a guy who's wife has been raped and murdered wants to have the perpetrator serving him supper.

Then that guy can kill him or make him do what he wants to do, but you don't have the right to make someone else do it.

Also, people would refuse service with the rapist. The family of the person who was raped and murdered could expose the rapist. People would be on the lookout for the rapist and make sure the rapist was isolated from everyone else. The rapist would eventually starve in a voluntary society. Meanwhile, people could voluntarily provide for their own security.

How about a rapist or child molester? I'm sure the victims would be happy to have their perpetrator around them and feel safe with no psychological effects.

When is the OP moving to Lichtenstein?

The Child molestor or the rapist could be killed by the victim. Hire a security guard when you're around the rapist. Have the rapist do things when you're not around. Hire someone to direct the rapist to do what you want them to without actually meeting the rapist.

 

[Anarchist420]

That's what civil lawsuits are for. But it may be difficult to get monetary compensation when the criminal has no money.

Then they can offer their labor to the direct victims, not to the state. The direct victims could sell the criminal's labor or rent the criminal out for labor and make money off the criminal. That's compensation.

In a free society, prisons wouldn't exist because they're wasteful and harmful.

Civil vs. Criminal is ridiculous anyway.

It's fucked up how I'm the one who can't think independently. Not saying that to just you but I'm using your post because you're an example of someone who defends the status quo... which is quite different from "thinking independently".

 

[Capt Caveman]

Then they can offer their labor to the direct victims, not to the state. The direct victims could sell the criminal's labor or rent the criminal out for labor and make money off the criminal. That's compensation.

In a free society, prisons wouldn't exist because they're wasteful and harmful.

Civil vs. Criminal is ridiculous anyway.

It's fucked up how I'm the one who can't think independently. Not saying that to just you but I'm using your post because you're an example of someone who defends the status quo... which is quite different from "thinking independently".

You really don't think things out do you. Please tell me how you're going to force the criminal to do anything? Who's going to house, feed and oversee the criminal?

Seriously, move out of your parents basement, get a job and learn how the real world works b/c you're an idiot.

 

[Capt Caveman]

The Child molestor or the rapist could be killed by the victim. Hire a security guard when you're around the rapist. Have the rapist do things when you're not around. Hire someone to direct the rapist to do what you want them to without actually meeting the rapist.

Sure, idiot. And what happens later it's discovered the individual was innocent and the 7 year old child has somehow already killed his molester? And who's going pay for hiring someone to oversee the rapist? The government?

Basically, everything you seem to not have the intelligence to figure out is why we need law enforcement, courts and prisons.

 

[Darwin333]

What about paying interest rather than going to jail?

Now we get into probabilities. If I have to pay 5% interest on the money I stole but there is only a 3% chance of me getting caught I will easily be able to cover the costs of the crimes I do get caught with the profits from the crimes that I don't get caught at.

Hell, give Vegas 10 minutes and they will give you an exact ratio of winnings/losses you can expect.

There is also a time factor. If I can reasonably and safely make 7% a year on the money and the interest payment is 5% I win no matter what. You might be thinking that the banksters would be popping wood over such a law but right now they get away scott free and the "restitution" is simply a cost of doing business.

 

[Darwin333]

Then they can offer their labor to the direct victims, not to the state. The direct victims could sell the criminal's labor or rent the criminal out for labor and make money off the criminal. That's compensation.

In a free society, prisons wouldn't exist because they're wasteful and harmful.

Civil vs. Criminal is ridiculous anyway.

It's fucked up how I'm the one who can't think independently. Not saying that to just you but I'm using your post because you're an example of someone who defends the status quo... which is quite different from "thinking independently".

Out of curiosity, in a "stateless society" who exactly determines that said criminal owes said victim anything in the first place?

I have seen things pretty damn close to a "stateless society" and the "who" is generally something akin to a lynch mob and the "what" is generally their life.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Then that guy can kill him or make him do what he wants to do, but you don't have the right to make someone else do it.

Also, people would refuse service with the rapist. The family of the person who was raped and murdered could expose the rapist. People would be on the lookout for the rapist and make sure the rapist was isolated from everyone else. The rapist would eventually starve in a voluntary society. Meanwhile, people could voluntarily provide for their own security.

The Child molestor or the rapist could be killed by the victim. Hire a security guard when you're around the rapist. Have the rapist do things when you're not around. Hire someone to direct the rapist to do what you want them to without actually meeting the rapist.

LOL.

It seems great until you get bogged down in the details, doesn't it?

Who would decide what a crime was, and how much was owed? What is the standard of proof compared with current 'civil' and 'criminal' courts?

What is a rape worth? Does it matter if the victim was a virgin? What if they were a wife, who was a virgin when she was married?

What if the victim is a man? Who happens to be gay, and not a 'virgin'?

Now go through this process for every possible crime. And remember, you're offering slavery, and in some cases the right to kill - not a relatively simple 'catch-and release' program.

At least we'll have enough work for all those laid-off prison guards, administering this. Probably enough for the IRS jobs you want to eliminate as well

 

[Anarchist420]

Out of curiosity, in a "stateless society" who exactly determines that said criminal owes said victim anything in the first place?

I have seen things pretty damn close to a "stateless society" and the "who" is generally something akin to a lynch mob and the "what" is generally their life.

The market would determine what a criminal owes said victim.

"Now we get into probabilities. If I have to pay 5% interest on the money I stole but there is only a 3% chance of me getting caught I will easily be able to cover the costs of the crimes I do get caught with the profits from the crimes that I don't get caught at.

Hell, give Vegas 10 minutes and they will give you an exact ratio of winnings/losses you can expect.

There is also a time factor. If I can reasonably and safely make 7% a year on the money and the interest payment is 5% I win no matter what. You might be thinking that the banksters would be popping wood over such a law but right now they get away scott free and the "restitution" is simply a cost of doing business."

You're thinking rationally, but the market will work it out. The possibilities are endless. Remember, value is subjective. Also remember most people wouldn't rate the state 100% fair to themselves either. The state hasn't created perfect order either. For example, there is still some domestic tranquility (although that too will eventually go out the window), but think about all of those Iraqis whose lives were ruined by the tyrannical American state invading their land. They were probably running for their lives. Just because we're American individuals doesn't mean the American state should shit on everyone else. You have to look at the big picture.

 

[Capt Caveman]

The market would determine what a criminal owes said victim.

"Now we get into probabilities. If I have to pay 5% interest on the money I stole but there is only a 3% chance of me getting caught I will easily be able to cover the costs of the crimes I do get caught with the profits from the crimes that I don't get caught at.

Hell, give Vegas 10 minutes and they will give you an exact ratio of winnings/losses you can expect.

There is also a time factor. If I can reasonably and safely make 7% a year on the money and the interest payment is 5% I win no matter what. You might be thinking that the banksters would be popping wood over such a law but right now they get away scott free and the "restitution" is simply a cost of doing business."

You're thinking rationally, but the market will work it out. The possibilities are endless. Remember, value is subjective. Also remember most people wouldn't rate the state 100% fair to themselves either. The state hasn't created perfect order either. For example, there is still some domestic tranquility (although that too will eventually go out the window), but think about all of those Iraqis whose lives were ruined by the tyrannical American state invading their land. They were probably running for their lives. Just because we're American individuals doesn't mean the American state should shit on everyone else. You have to look at the big picture.

The market? :biggrin:

Again, who is going to arrest these criminals, judge/convict them and then oversea their restitution? Also, house, feed, etc?

And as someone who knows a former Iraqi solider(prior to the Gulf War), he and his family(still in Iraq) are happy for the US overthrowing Hussein.

 

[davmat787]

The market? :biggrin:

Sure, the market. People could buy like rape futures and murder stocks and stuff.

 

[Doppel]

The market? :biggrin:

Again, who is going to arrest these criminals, judge/convict them and then oversea their restitution? Also, house, feed, etc?

The market will arrest them! The market is all knowing, all powerful.

Never mind the fact that in a quasi capitalist/anarchist system the rich would have a multitude of bodyguards and be able to do whatever they wanted. If they don't like your hat they can shoot you dead on the street and nobody will do sh*t about it because that rich person has 200 bodyguards--a private army and you have nothing. And if you think you're going to get your neighbors together to pool money to counterattack (a poor use of time, for one thing) I have some news for you, this rich man just used his private plant to carpet bomb your neighborhood. Tough sh*t. Think Somalia, for example.

If only anarchist realized that in literally every single society on earth, including ones completely closed off from the outside world, there is a "government"--an appeal to authority that has the power to act and receive the more or less respect of its citizens who will do what it says. He really is worse than people touting communism and dismissing its failings as simply imprecise applications of its ideas.