What do you think is the major processor cause for decreasing dGPU sales in recent years?

[cbn]

What do you think is the major cause (from a processor standpoint) for decreasing dGPU sales in recent years?

Slow CPU progress at X price point?

Improving iGPU?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Are you talking overall sales volume, or ASP?

I suppose, the continual improvement of a CPU-integrated iGPU, to the current state of things in Skylake, and Carrizo / Bristol Ridge, has improved such that there is literally basically no point to entry-level VGAs, at least, not the ones that sell for under $100.

As far as ASP goes, at least NVidia has been raising prices on their dGPUs (successfully, I might add!), such that while their volume is down, comparatively-speaking to the past, their profits and revenue are WAY up.

(To say that they've mastered "milking the market" is an understatement.)

There was another factor that was mentioned in a thread in the video card forum, that many / most gamers, are still rocking 1080P (or below!) monitors. Such that modern games, even as graphics-heavy as they get, without the resolution increase from a higher-res monitor, and the respective increased graphical workload that the GPU must endure, eventually, the vast majority of gamers are going to be adequately served by the lowest-end tier of dGPUs.

And, if increases in memory bandwidth happen on the CPU/APU front (HBM, "Super" APUs, etc.), then there may be no need for dGPUs at all, at least for graphics. (There's always "machine learning".)

Edit: As an "enthusiast", I do wish that there were available cards for around $50-60, that have HDMI2.0 output, HEVC encode/decode (and VP9), for whatever "profile" is the flavor of the day, and were generally low-profile, single-slot, passive, basically, the ultimate HTPC-type card, instead of a gaming card. I would personally consider buying those, for "normal desktop rigs", basically for media-consumption and video-conferencing features.
Edit: Oh, and supporting dual-link DVI-I, so I could connect an existing VGA monitor too. That could be a valuable feature for low-end dGPUs, because lots of people still have workable VGA monitors, and iGPUs are dropping support for VGA. (At least, officially, although Asus and others have lower-end boards that still have VGA ports on them.)

 

[cbn]

Here is a comparison for $117 Intel CPU spaning 4.5 years:

Intel Sandy Bridge Core i3 2100 (3.1 Ghz, $117 to $120, Q1 2011)

http://ark.intel.com/products/53422/Intel-Core-i3-2100-Processor-3M-Cache-3_10-GHz

Intel Skylake Core i3 6100 (3.7 Ghz, $117, Q3 2015)

http://ark.intel.com/products/90729/Intel-Core-i3-6100-Processor-3M-Cache-3_70-GHz

We can see that clockspeed increased 600 Mhz over the span of 4.5 years. During this time IPC increased 25% according to Anandtech:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9483/intel-skylake-review-6700k-6600k-ddr4-ddr3-ipc-6th-generation/23

Sandy Bridge, Your Time Is Up.

A large number of users invested into Intel based platforms during the Core 2 Quad, Nehalem and Sandy Bridge releases. Sandy Bridge was notable because it inferred a large performance gain at stock speeds, and with a good processor anyone could reach 4.7 GHz and even higher using a good high end cooler. With that, Intel has had a problem enticing these users to upgrade because their performance has been constantly matched by Ivy Bridge, Haswell and Broadwell – for every 5% IPC increase from the CPU, an average 200 MHz was lost on the good overclock and they would have to find a good overclocking CPU again. There was no great reason, apart from chipset functionality to upgrade.

That changes with Skylake.

From a clock-to-clock performance perspective, Skylake gives an average ~25% better performance in CPU based benchmarks

Combining the jump in clockspeed of 600 Mhz (3.1 Ghz to 3.7 Ghz) with the 25% increase in IPC the $117 tier of Core i3 has increased single thread 50% in the span of those 4.5 years.

In the meantime, iGPU has increased at least 4x (Core i3 6100 has 24 EUs (Gen 9) vs. Core i3 2100 with 6 EUs (Gen 6.5, I believe).

 

[VirtualLarry]

Yes, clearly, Intel has put the priority on increasing the performance of their iGPUs more than their CPU cores, at least for their consumer lines. (KL and Xeons notwithstanding for this discussion.)

Edit: I'll say, that Skylake (Gen 9 iGPU, I think?), is the first generation that I think that the iGPU is "good enough", that I don't need to put in a dGPU for basic desktop tasks, and media consumption.

I remember my Sandy Bridge Pentium G630, I think it was, that had an iGPU, and it was so laggy in Windows 7 during Skype, that I put in a dGPU, an NVidia GT430 128-bit LP card. It worked MUCH better.

But I don't feel that need with Skylake anymore.

 

[cbn]

Are you talking overall sales volume, or ASP?

Two thing that I believe are happening:

1.) Improving iGPU lowering entry level dGPU sales.

2.) Lack of CPU improvement at price points like the $117 Core i3 lowering midrange dGPU sales.

 

[CHADBOGA]

Lack of decent games to inspire me to upgrade my GPU.

Half Life 3, where are you?

 

[disappoint]

Slow CPU progress and the younger generation of gamers moving to mobile platforms for gaming.

 

[Madpacket]

What do you think is the major cause (from a processor standpoint) for decreasing dGPU sales in recent years?

Slow CPU progress at X price point?

Improving iGPU?

Look at the top 5 PC games played (total # of players) and look at what resources is required to run them. How many of these games need more than integrated graphics to be played? Or how many of these games require more than on a Radeon 7850 / Geforce 750 to run 60+ fps at 1080P?

 

[DrMrLordX]

Slow CPU progress and the younger generation of gamers moving to mobile platforms for gaming.

The latter is probably the biggest indicator of why dGPU sales are down (by volume). PC gaming just isn't generating as much interest as it did 10 years ago. Too many people who do play on PC are stuck on games like Dota2, League of Legends, etc.

Games like Overwatch will probably drive a lot of dGPU sales, at least for a time . . .

 

[severus]

The rise of gaming notebooks from Lenovo, Asus, MSI, Acer and more also contributes to the lack of video card sales. More and more people are buying notebooks in favor of desktops because of their portable nature. It's much easier to have a "lan" party and then pack the notebook in a book bag for a long flight than it was 10+ years ago. Also there's been a dramatic shift towards console gaming in the last two generations where in the early 2000's online gaming was solely a PC thing.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Lack of decent games to inspire me to upgrade my GPU.

Half Life 3, where are you?

This. I am running an ancient HD7770, but there are no new games that I want to play badly enough to upgrade for. Personally, the only games I would be willing to upgrade for would be a new elder scrolls game, KOTOR 3 or maybe a new borderlands game.

 

[cbn]

Look at the top 5 PC games played (total # of players) and look at what resources is required to run them. How many of these games need more than integrated graphics to be played? Or how many of these games require more than on a Radeon 7850 / Geforce 750 to run 60+ fps at 1080P?

Here is the current list of Steam Games by player count:

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

973,107 756,951 Dota 2
602,025 618,285 Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
69,867 69,867 Sid Meier's Civilization V
65,835 66,673 Team Fortress 2
55,236 55,236 Rocket League
54,109 55,141 ARK: Survival Evolved
53,704 56,452 Paladins
51,006 51,178 Garry's Mod
49,458 59,870 Grand Theft Auto V
43,304 48,185 Unturned
42,355 44,143 Football Manager 2016
39,125 39,125 Arma 3
37,636 38,313 Rust
34,658 34,734 The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
33,148 33,148 Fallout 4
29,856 33,593 Warframe
23,207 23,539 Terraria
22,603 22,603 Path of Exile
21,283 21,819 War Thunder
20,605 20,667 H1Z1: King of the Kill
20,164 21,009 Counter-Strike
18,504 18,504 SMITE
18,358 18,358 Call of Duty: Black Ops III
18,267 18,711 Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege
17,905 18,445 Euro Truck Simulator 2
16,209 16,464 Heroes & Generals
15,645 20,415 Dead by Daylight
14,191 14,191 Europa Universalis IV
14,084 14,761 The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
13,836 14,149 Clicker Heroes
12,573 12,589 Borderlands 2
11,677 11,677 Battlerite
11,531 12,086 Cities: Skylines
11,513 12,158 PAYDAY 2
10,857 11,660 Mount & Blade: Warband
10,522 10,559 7 Days to Die
10,391 10,637 Total War: WARHAMMER
10,312 13,375 Left 4 Dead 2
9,850 9,850 Hearts of Iron IV
9,285 9,496 Counter-Strike: Source
9,179 9,246 Total War: ROME II - Emperor Edition
8,847 9,374 DARK SOULS III
8,798 8,798 Stardew Valley
8,745 8,784 Football Manager 2015
8,577 8,577 Age of Empires II: HD Edition
8,315 8,315 FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn
8,128 8,128 DayZ
8,124 8,124 Elite Dangerous
8,118 8,211 RimWorld
7,618 11,728 NBA 2K17
7,596 10,172 Brawlhalla
7,504 8,065 The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth
7,473 7,551 Factorio
7,278 7,278 Company of Heroes 2
6,997 7,567 Trove
6,803 6,957 Magic Duels
6,717 9,144 Don't Starve Together
6,708 6,708 XCOM 2
6,705 7,376 Robocraft
6,588 6,588 Stellaris
6,576 6,576 Crusader Kings II
6,312 6,424 Starbound
6,106 6,233 Farming Simulator 15
5,723 5,723 Kerbal Space Program
5,278 5,278 Warface
5,249 5,249 Divinity: Original Sin Enhanced Edition
5,086 5,107 Portal 2
5,014 5,149 Total War: ATTILA
5,009 5,297 Counter-Strike Nexon: Zombies
4,883 5,949 Tree of Savior (English Ver.)
4,881 5,892 Pro Evolution Soccer 2017
4,802 4,861 Empire: Total War
4,778 4,816 Deus Ex: Mankind Divided™
4,766 4,766 Prison Architect
4,652 4,800 AdVenture Capitalist
4,580 4,615 Arma 2: Operation Arrowhead
4,560 4,565 Space Engineers
4,459 4,459 The Forest
4,429 4,543 Mad Max
4,284 4,318 DOOM
4,229 4,473 Grim Dawn
4,100 4,126 Medieval II: Total War
4,084 4,127 Osiris: New Dawn
4,006 4,057 METAL GEAR SOLID V: THE PHANTOM PAIN
3,981 3,991 The Sims(TM) 3
3,872 4,343 Tom Clancy's The Division
3,780 3,785 Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor
3,755 3,755 Fractured Space
3,755 3,870 Microsoft Flight Simulator X: Steam Edition
3,716 3,774 Cossacks 3
3,681 3,737 Total War: SHOGUN 2
3,596 3,596 Killing Floor 2
3,562 4,193 H1Z1: Just Survive
3,542 3,552 Football Manager 2014
3,528 3,793 Geometry Dash
3,495 3,495 Fallout: New Vegas
3,442 3,498 Call of Duty: Black Ops II - Multiplayer
3,422 3,424 The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited
3,267 3,599 Evolve Stage 2
3,183 3,183 Insurgency

Not sure about DOTA 2, but CS:GO doesn't need that much in terms of resources. However, if I were playing competitively I wouldn't want an desktop APU for CS:GO.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I have run DotA2 and TF2 @ over 100 fps with a 7700k for what it's worth. Granted it was pretty low-res at the time (1280x1024) but the point still stands.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Here is the current list of Steam Games by player count:

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

973,107 756,951 Dota 2
602,025 618,285 Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
69,867 69,867 Sid Meier's Civilization V
65,835 66,673 Team Fortress 2
55,236 55,236 Rocket League
54,109 55,141 ARK: Survival Evolved
53,704 56,452 Paladins
51,006 51,178 Garry's Mod
49,458 59,870 Grand Theft Auto V
43,304 48,185 Unturned
42,355 44,143 Football Manager 2016
39,125 39,125 Arma 3
37,636 38,313 Rust
34,658 34,734 The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
33,148 33,148 Fallout 4
29,856 33,593 Warframe
23,207 23,539 Terraria
22,603 22,603 Path of Exile
21,283 21,819 War Thunder
20,605 20,667 H1Z1: King of the Kill
20,164 21,009 Counter-Strike
18,504 18,504 SMITE
18,358 18,358 Call of Duty: Black Ops III
18,267 18,711 Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege
17,905 18,445 Euro Truck Simulator 2
16,209 16,464 Heroes & Generals
15,645 20,415 Dead by Daylight
14,191 14,191 Europa Universalis IV
14,084 14,761 The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
13,836 14,149 Clicker Heroes
12,573 12,589 Borderlands 2
11,677 11,677 Battlerite
11,531 12,086 Cities: Skylines
11,513 12,158 PAYDAY 2
10,857 11,660 Mount & Blade: Warband
10,522 10,559 7 Days to Die
10,391 10,637 Total War: WARHAMMER
10,312 13,375 Left 4 Dead 2
9,850 9,850 Hearts of Iron IV
9,285 9,496 Counter-Strike: Source
9,179 9,246 Total War: ROME II - Emperor Edition
8,847 9,374 DARK SOULS III
8,798 8,798 Stardew Valley
8,745 8,784 Football Manager 2015
8,577 8,577 Age of Empires II: HD Edition
8,315 8,315 FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn
8,128 8,128 DayZ
8,124 8,124 Elite Dangerous
8,118 8,211 RimWorld
7,618 11,728 NBA 2K17
7,596 10,172 Brawlhalla
7,504 8,065 The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth
7,473 7,551 Factorio
7,278 7,278 Company of Heroes 2
6,997 7,567 Trove
6,803 6,957 Magic Duels
6,717 9,144 Don't Starve Together
6,708 6,708 XCOM 2
6,705 7,376 Robocraft
6,588 6,588 Stellaris
6,576 6,576 Crusader Kings II
6,312 6,424 Starbound
6,106 6,233 Farming Simulator 15
5,723 5,723 Kerbal Space Program
5,278 5,278 Warface
5,249 5,249 Divinity: Original Sin Enhanced Edition
5,086 5,107 Portal 2
5,014 5,149 Total War: ATTILA
5,009 5,297 Counter-Strike Nexon: Zombies
4,883 5,949 Tree of Savior (English Ver.)
4,881 5,892 Pro Evolution Soccer 2017
4,802 4,861 Empire: Total War
4,778 4,816 Deus Ex: Mankind Divided™
4,766 4,766 Prison Architect
4,652 4,800 AdVenture Capitalist
4,580 4,615 Arma 2: Operation Arrowhead
4,560 4,565 Space Engineers
4,459 4,459 The Forest
4,429 4,543 Mad Max
4,284 4,318 DOOM
4,229 4,473 Grim Dawn
4,100 4,126 Medieval II: Total War
4,084 4,127 Osiris: New Dawn
4,006 4,057 METAL GEAR SOLID V: THE PHANTOM PAIN
3,981 3,991 The Sims(TM) 3
3,872 4,343 Tom Clancy's The Division
3,780 3,785 Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor
3,755 3,755 Fractured Space
3,755 3,870 Microsoft Flight Simulator X: Steam Edition
3,716 3,774 Cossacks 3
3,681 3,737 Total War: SHOGUN 2
3,596 3,596 Killing Floor 2
3,562 4,193 H1Z1: Just Survive
3,542 3,552 Football Manager 2014
3,528 3,793 Geometry Dash
3,495 3,495 Fallout: New Vegas
3,442 3,498 Call of Duty: Black Ops II - Multiplayer
3,422 3,424 The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited
3,267 3,599 Evolve Stage 2
3,183 3,183 Insurgency

Not sure about DOTA 2, but CS:GO doesn't need that much in terms of resources. However, if I were playing competitively I wouldn't want an desktop APU for CS:GO.

The problem with an APU is that, yes, easy to run games might be the most popular, and you could run them on an APU. But the real question is, "Do you want to limit yourself to those games only?" With the minimal cost for a dgpu that is much more powerful, in most cases, I think not. The lackluster (to put it mildly) sales of desktop APUs back this up I think.

 

[cbn]

The problem with an APU is that, yes, easy to run games might be the most popular, and you could run them on an APU. But the real question is, "Do you want to limit yourself to those games only?"

Or another question would be "Do you want to limit the performance?"

For example, I just finished informal testing CS:GO (a game I have played many times before with various hardware configurations) using my Athlon x 4 860K and GTX 660 @ the game's auto settings of 1080p high (MSAA x8, Anisotropic filtering x4) and while my frame rate was consistently well over 100 FPS....at one time it dipped into the high 70's FPS during a fire fight.

High 70's FPS is obviously fine for a 60 Hz monitor but if were playing competitively (or very seriously) I would be using 144 Hz monitor @ either 1080p or 1440p....so more CPU and GPU would be needed.

 

[cbn]

With the minimal cost for a dgpu that is much more powerful, in most cases, I think not. The lackluster (to put it mildly) sales of desktop APUs back this up I think.

At least three problems I see with AMD APUs for desktop:

1. OEM desktops with APUs carry a higher than expected pricing--> https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...industry-source.2456970/page-14#post-37937094

2. At the DIY level the lower cost Athlon x 4 860K + GT730 GDDR5 combo beats the more expensive A10-7870K @ 1080p gaming-> https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/a10-7870k-vs-athlon-860k-gt730-atenra-cbn.2464083/

3. "APU size desktops" (ie, small footprint on table) with potential for 12.2" and 13" video cards can be made using chassis mentioned in this thread--> https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/what-cases-use-a-riser-for-the-video-card.2487944/

 

[Doom2pro]

Neither... But Intel flooding the market with sub standard dGPUs didn't help matters.

 

[StrangerGuy]

The same reason why Intel and NV's ASPs keep rising: the appeal of new low end/midrange offerings is decreasing and those who still want to spend money on PCs would rather spend more to move up the ladder than get stuck on the lower end.

 

[spat55]

iGPU is the main thing when a 6700k with it's iGPU can beat out a HD 6670 or GTX 560ti then you don't really need a GPU unless playing some games at over 720p. I do wish Intel would make more CPU's without the iGPU though and give slightly more performance.

 

[cbn]

iGPU is the main thing when a 6700k with it's iGPU can beat out a HD 6670 or GTX 560ti then you don't really need a GPU unless playing some games at over 720p. I do wish Intel would make more CPU's without the iGPU though and give slightly more performance.

According the following Anandtech review where the i7 6700K GT2 iGPU was compared to R7 240 (320 GCN 1.0 Stream processors) I estimate the performance of GT2 to be around the level of 256 GCN 1.0 Stream processors:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9483/...ation/14?_ga=1.188674016.970056802.1474319632

 

[cbn]

Preliminary results from my poll "What unlocked LGA 1150/1151 CPU did you buy" have 12 voters choosing Core i7 and only 2 voters choosing Core i5:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/what-unlocked-lga-1150-1151-cpu-did-you-buy.2487971/

4, 5 or 6 years ago I'm pretty sure the results would have been reversed with most users choosing a Core i5.

If true, then the PC enthusiasts in this forum appear to be moving upwards on the Intel CPU offerings. However, at the same time (if true) the I suspect the total number of buyers is decreasing (ie. the pool of PC gamers is decreasing).

 

[ehume]

With an i7 4770k and an i7 4790k I can do all I want to do. I don't game, and iGPU's are good enough to run movies. Except for dGPU's I get for my kid ever few years I don't buy these things. I think there are a number of people who use computers but don't game.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

With an i7 4770k and an i7 4790k I can do all I want to do. I don't game, and iGPU's are good enough to run movies. Except for dGPU's I get for my kid ever few years I don't buy these things. I think there are a number of people who use computers but don't game.

Probably quite a few. I'm eligible and covered for Medicare. I don't find it necessary to build a large game library, and I build these rigs almost with curiosity as a factor. But certain games are part of an addiction and means of passing time.

I'm beginning to wonder if this ongoing Skylake project could be the last. Or whether I'll break down and buy an OEM system when I need one for the first time since 1995. Even that "emerging need" shouldn't arise here for another 5 years. Or -- I can "get by."

Especially, there's the price paid for high end dGPUs. If you ALWAYS build SLI systems, you'd do well also to become a good EBay seller. I don't think I'm going to SLI anymore, either.

Right now, I'm saving cigarette money after Chantix and Nicorette so I can buy a Sammy 950 Pro M.2 drive. I'm just going to take a longer time to finish this Skylake.

I've got more computers than either Clinton or Trump have in scandal-points.

 

[cbn]

With an i7 4770k and an i7 4790k I can do all I want to do. I don't game, and iGPU's are good enough to run movies. Except for dGPU's I get for my kid ever few years I don't buy these things. I think there are a number of people who use computers but don't game.

Definitely there are folks that use either an unlocked Core i5 or a unlocked Core i7 and don't game. This would be part of the user base both now and 4,5,6 years ago.

However, I also know the Video card forum is one the busiest (or is it the busiest?) forums at Anandtech, so a good percentage of the user base for unlocked Core i5 and Core i7 are likely gamers.

And what has changed over the last 4,5,6 years?

1.) Games are making better use of eight threads

2.) Video cards are much more powerful. (And keep in mind stutter can become an issue when the video card becomes too powerful in relation to the CPU)

3.) Resolution is either increasing (eg, 4K and 1440p) or getting cheaper at the 1080p level.

 

[nerp]

20k people playing original Counter Strike.

Incredible.