What do you think about "right to work" states?

[DaaQ]

Yeah, I know. And in that situation the non-union groups are not freeloading. That is completely different than being in a union job and refusing to pay dues. @ivwshane was trying to conflate the two.

Oh they do get the same pay raises and monetary benefits as the union people, I just think they are not able to vote on the contract. I was only there a year and a half. But I got the same raises, and concessions that were negotiated.

I was just trying to point out that they (the company) segregates it by department.

DBL EDIT: The individual department can vote to go union, or when they were unionized, that particular department voted to be non union. I can't remember which it was in this particular place.

 

[Zorba]

Oh they do get the same pay raises and monetary benefits as the union people, I just think they are not able to vote on the contract. I was only there a year and a half. But I got the same raises, and concessions that were negotiated.

I was just trying to point out that they (the company) segregates it by department.

DBL EDIT: The individual department can vote to go union, or when they were unionized, that particular department voted to be non union. I can't remember which it was in this particular place.

That is still different than right to work.

 

[ivwshane]

Yeah, I know. And in that situation the non-union groups are not freeloading. That is completely different than being in a union job and refusing to pay dues. @ivwshane was trying to conflate the two.

Nope I didn’t.

 

[Zorba]

Nope I didn’t.

Then you weren't being clear at all and your points don't make sense in this thread. Right to work is about having a union job and opting out of the union, i.e. getting the benefits without paying. Right to work doesn't mean some job classifications are union and others aren't.

 

[ivwshane]

Then you weren't being clear at all and your points don't make sense in this thread. Right to work is about having a union job and opting out of the union, i.e. getting the benefits without paying. Right to work doesn't mean some job classifications are union and others aren't.

Yes and if you followed along you would have seen that I support not joining a union as well as not getting the benefits of what the union offers. I wasn’t limiting the discussion to only fit within the definition of “right to work” laws.

 

[Zorba]

Yes and if you followed along you would have seen that I support not joining a union as well as not getting the benefits of what the union offers. I wasn’t limiting the discussion to only fit within the definition of “right to work” laws.

And you haven't provided any evidence that actually happens any where. In the real world, not joining the union saves you dues while you get all the same pay and benefits from the company, assuming you are in the same job class as the union.

And you just said "nope I didn't [say that]." Working a union job and not paying dues makes you a free loader, working at company with unions in a non-union job class does not make you are free loader. You are clearly talking about the former, and you aren't you really aren't being clear.

 

[ivwshane]

And you haven't provided any evidence that actually happens any where. In the real world, not joining the union saves you dues while you get all the same pay and benefits from the company, assuming you are in the same job class as the union.

And you just said "nope I didn't [say that]." Working a union job and not paying dues makes you a free loader, working at company with unions in a non-union job class does not make you are free loader. You are clearly talking about the former, and you aren't you really aren't being clear.

I’m being perfectly clear. I’m guessing you have a vested interest in this topic which is why you keep refusing to acknowledge the point being made. Whether something exists or not really isn’t relevant to the point of whether or not I support such a thing.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

It's cyclical. I think we're nearing the tail end of a period of near rapacious capitalistic excess and we'll go into a "pro-labor" cycle while millennials and zoomers are at the top of the generational dogpile.

Our kids, fatter and more content with what we've left them, will cycle back toward "why do I need a union I already have a good job, health care, and work life balance..." and they'll elect the next Regan and the whole thing will start again.

 

[HomerJS]

Perhaps states that don't have unions people who do not participate should not receive negotiated benefits, better salary, healthcare, vacation days, etc.

I don't think employers would be dumb enough to have a 2 tier compensation system because that would push more people to unions.

 

[ivwshane]

Perhaps states that don't have unions people who do not participate should not receive negotiated benefits, better salary, healthcare, vacation days, etc.

I don't think employers would be dumb enough to have a 2 tier compensation system because that would push more people to unions.

That’s because you think companies would automatically pay non union members less than union members. In general you are probably right however that’s not necessarily always the case.

 

[BoomerD]

That’s because you think companies would automatically pay non union members less than union members. In general you are probably right however that’s not necessarily always the case.

The law often prohibits the freeloaders from getting lower wages than their union counterparts...and the union is REQUIRED to represent them, regardless of membership.

I was a union business agent for a time. (hated the job...too much politics) Our local also represented northern Nevada as well as a significant part of the Cal-Trans highway crews, equipment operators and mechanics in other CA state departments. Those guys had the choice...join the union and pay dues...or pay an "agency fee" equal to the union dues. They all got the same wages and benefits, regardless of union membership...and, for the most part, the agency members got the same representation in things like grievances and other personnel matters.
I had some good friends in Idaho years back. Once a fairly strong union state, they passed a RTW law. The companies were laying off union members left and right, and attached to their final check was an application for employment...with the wages at least 25% less than they had been paid before the law went into effect. They could still be in their union if they wanted, but there was no tangible benefit to doing so.

 

[Zorba]

I’m being perfectly clear. I’m guessing you have a vested interest in this topic which is why you keep refusing to acknowledge the point being made. Whether something exists or not really isn’t relevant to the point of whether or not I support such a thing.

I really have no idea what point you are trying to make, except maybe that you think right to work laws are good but won't just come out and say it. I've never been in a union, although I've worked with many union members. I have no vested interest, except as a worker that prefers labor have more power than it currently does.

The unions I've worked with are packed full of non-paying employees that massively erode the power of the union, but they of course still bitch that the union isn't getting enough from the company. Yeah, no shit, no one is paying for it, so they have no infrastructure and little threat from a strike.

 

[ivwshane]

I really have no idea what point you are trying to make, except maybe that you think right to work laws are good but won't just come out and say it. I've never been in a union, although I've worked with many union members. I have no vested interest, except as a worker that prefers labor have more power than it currently does.

The unions I've worked with are packed full of non-paying employees that massively erode the power of the union, but they of course still bitch that the union isn't getting enough from the company. Yeah, no shit, no one is paying for it, so they have no infrastructure and little threat from a strike.

For fucks sales bro! Are you fucking dumb? I said what I support and I was very clear about it and it has nothing to do with the current right to work laws. You keep wanting me to conflate my beliefs with what “right to work” means and I keep telling you I’m not trying to do that. Do you fucking understand that now or do you need to be treated like a fucking child and have a meme posted for you to understand it? Seriously, wtf is wrong with you? I support whatever gets the best outcome for the worker, if that means supporting unions, great, if it means supporting people who want to negotiate on their own without union support, great. I’m also ok with people not getting the benefits of being in a union who don’t pay union dues. If that isn’t clear enough then kindly fuck off.

 

[Zorba]

For fucks sales bro! Are you fucking dumb? I said what I support and I was very clear about it and it has nothing to do with the current right to work laws. You keep wanting me to conflate my beliefs with what “right to work” means and I keep telling you I’m not trying to do that. Do you fucking understand that now or do you need to be treated like a fucking child and have a meme posted for you to understand it? Seriously, wtf is wrong with you? I support whatever gets the best outcome for the worker, if that means supporting unions, great, if it means supporting people who want to negotiate on their own without union support, great. I’m also ok with people not getting the benefits of being in a union who don’t pay union dues. If that isn’t clear enough then kindly fuck off.

Yup, you are great a communicating your point. This whole conversation started because you didn't like me calling people that get the negotiated pay and benefits of a union contract without paying dues freeloaders. I guess that has murphed into you being pro a 2 tier pay system, which would still erode union power. I personally don't believe eroding union power is likely to help labor.

Not sure why you've been such a dick in this thread, but I'm not the only one that hasn't been able to follow what point you're trying to make.

My original point is with how RTW is implemented today, I think people that opt out of membership are freeloading off the union. Outside of you getting upset about that, you've made no argument to convince otherwise.

Maybe there are some small shops where opting out individuals can get paid under non-union rules, I've yet to see that anywhere I've worked. History has shown individual negotiation has not been great for labor.

 

[ivwshane]

I’ll just leave this here:

I don't think you should be fired for not joining a union but I also don't think you should get benefits of union collective bargaining without joining the union. If you think you are better off bargaining individually with a multi-billion dollar corporation, have at it, but don't freeload off the union.

To which I responded:

I would agree but we all know that Union leadership is trained to put pressure on non union members and that often gets trickled down to union members who then give shit to non union workers.

 

[trenchfoot]

Sure we won't wait around, but if your primary reason is you hate something because they support a certain political party more than others, well, you are useless in any debate anyway. All you are saying is 'hi, I'm a partisan hack, I have no ability to discuss anything with reason and facts and logic because I just hate it because they lean Dem, so am not open to actual debate'

So yes, you suck and please run away.

A clean hit-n-run/loot-n-scoot case if I ever saw one. Not hanging around to defend himself is, well, I was going to say cowardly, but I'll just call it lazy to be nice about it.

As far as unions go, to paraphrase a quote I long ago forgot the exact text of and of which I agree with, "If there was no need for unions, they wouldn't exist."

 

[KMFJD]

Michigan just repealed right to work, now they are planning on making union dues tax deductible

https://twitter.com/x/status/1633920704763801600

 

[vi edit]

Curious how useful making union dues deductible actually is. With the standard deduction for married, filing jointly being 24k, that's a high bar to clear for itemization.

[EDIT] that's federal...not state. Sorry.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Michigan just repealed right to work, now they are planning on making union dues tax deductible

https://twitter.com/x/status/1633920704763801600

b-b-b-b-but republicans are the party of the working man! /S

 

[cytg111]

I think ultimately it leads to shit like this

https://twitter.com/x/status/1633945848445902848

 

[KMFJD]

BREAKING: The NLRB has ruled that if bosses commit unfair labor practices in the run-up to a union election then the election will be canceled and the Board will order the employer to immediately recognize and bargain with the union.Union-busting just got a lot harder.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1695085156061659207

nice

 

[Zorba]

BREAKING: The NLRB has ruled that if bosses commit unfair labor practices in the run-up to a union election then the election will be canceled and the Board will order the employer to immediately recognize and bargain with the union.Union-busting just got a lot harder.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1695085156061659207

nice

Wow. I think that would apply to every university n campaign I've ever heard of.

 

[KMFJD]

More Perfect Union (@moreperfectunion.bsky.social)

BREAKING: Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema have cast decisive votes against Biden's NLRB nominee. This means the Democrats will not secure control of the national labor regulator through 2026. These two Senators effectively handed Trump control of the board when his term begins.

bsky.app

BREAKING: Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema have cast decisive votes against Biden's NLRB nominee. This means the Democrats will not secure control of the national labor regulator through 2026. These two Senators effectively handed Trump control of the board when his term begins.

bought and paid for, those bribes where well worth it i guess

 

[Brainonska511]

More Perfect Union (@moreperfectunion.bsky.social)

BREAKING: Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema have cast decisive votes against Biden's NLRB nominee. This means the Democrats will not secure control of the national labor regulator through 2026. These two Senators effectively handed Trump control of the board when his term begins.

bsky.app

BREAKING: Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema have cast decisive votes against Biden's NLRB nominee. This means the Democrats will not secure control of the national labor regulator through 2026. These two Senators effectively handed Trump control of the board when his term begins.

bought and paid for, those bribes where well worth it i guess

Manchin is just a moron (if you've listened to him opine on other subjects) - he doesn't need to be paid off. Still, no surprises with these two.

 

[Drach]

At 16 I got fired for putting out a car fire in Houston at a gas pump. I got fired for putting out a fire at a gas pump. Let that sink in. Fuck right to work states.
There is no way to prove your point. You get fired for doing the right thing.
No unemployment benefits, nothing for doing the right thing.
I have to pay $10 a month for the rest of my life for restiution for doing the right thing.