What do you say to people who steal wifi?

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: MX2times
We get this alot at the shop too. I tell them that are risking possible police involvement and prosecution. The PD here have actually started a small task force that randomly and routinely patrol for this sort of thing (people stealing via wardriving mostly). They have in fact made quite few arrests also.

Sure they have.

 

[Xionide]

I would ask them to get the new metallica cd for me.

 

[GamerExpress]

Originally posted by: Modeps
An unsecure wireless network is a public use network.

That's 100% correct, it's not stealing at all if it's left unsecure.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Modeps
If you leave a car on a town's street, and someone drives it away and plays for a while, then leaves it when they are done, I guess they're breaking the law too.

Yup.

 

[DarkKnight69]

i disagree, scanning a signal and accessing a signal are 100% different!

 

[Drakkon]

most cities in the US have a "theft of services" law...whereby it is illegal to obtain services for yourself when you know are availible only for compensation
I think its pretty cut and dry that is what wifi is dealing with, a service that you are taking advantage of that you arent paying for but you know someone is

 

[GamerExpress]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: jndietz

Originally posted by: Nocturnal

Originally posted by: Modeps
An unsecure wireless network is a public use network.

That's up for debate.

no it's not. they should have secured it in the first place if they want it to be private

If you do not receive consent to use that PRIVATE network then you are using a system that is not yours - hence illegal.

100% wrong. If you take a look at the laws, it is not illegal to use someone elses wifi if it's left wide open. There have been a few cases where someone was charged and even convicted, the people that were convicted were always charged with stealing private information. I think we all know that borrowing someone's Wifi to browse around on the internet is one thing (that's ok). Snooping into the persons computer or home network via their Wifi and trying to find personal info like bank records and credit card info is NOT ok.

 

[MX2]

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: MX2times
We get this alot at the shop too. I tell them that are risking possible police involvement and prosecution. The PD here have actually started a small task force that randomly and routinely patrol for this sort of thing (people stealing via wardriving mostly). They have in fact made quite few arrests also.

Sure they have.

Oh no? Really? Are you sure of yourself?

http://www.koaa.com/news/view.asp?ID=3915

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Modeps
You can mess with someone's breaks without stealing their car. <eg>

I think the use aspect is what people care about. If someone used the connection to check their email, it's not a big deal to you. If they're saturating your pipe with BT downloads of h0t pr0n and causes your browsing experience to suffer, then people start to care.

I'm not saying this isn't a grey area, because it is. There's no law on it and there shouldnt be. If you're dumb enough to purchase a WIRELESS access point and think you're the only one who can use it that's your own fault.

Remember folks, Ignorance is not a usable defense in court, so why should the ignorant be granted a pass in this situation?

I agree here mostly. But the person knowingly using somebody elses wireless network without permission is doing so knowing that the victim probably doesn't know. They have malicious intent. The person who didn't secure their access point is just an idiot. There's no law against being dumb. One person knows they are doing wrong, the other is just not very bright and they are being taken advantage of. At about 7 years of age we start to reach what is considered the age of reason. This means we should know the difference between right and wrong by age 7 (or maybe it's 9, I forget). If 7 year old can understand the difference between right and wrong, then I guess we have a lot of 6 year olds posting here. It is wrong and unethical. Period.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: GamerExpress

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: jndietz

Originally posted by: Nocturnal

Originally posted by: Modeps
An unsecure wireless network is a public use network.

That's up for debate.

no it's not. they should have secured it in the first place if they want it to be private

If you do not receive consent to use that PRIVATE network then you are using a system that is not yours - hence illegal.

100% wrong. If you take a look at the laws, it is not illegal to use someone elses wifi if it's left wide open. There have been a few cases where someone was charged and even convicted, the people that were convicted were always charged with stealing private information. I think we all know that borrowing someone's Wifi to browse around on the internet is one thing (that's ok). Snooping into the persons computer or home network via their Wifi and trying to find personal info like bank records and credit card info is NOT ok.

Surfing the internet using somebody elses wifi without their knowledge is no different or better than hacking their personal computer. The airwaves which connect to their access point are public property. The physical ISP connection over which you then browse the internet is paid for by the individual. It is private. By the logic of people who think it's ok, does that mean it's ok to scam old ladies out of their life savings because they are not smart enough to see a scam? Is it ok if my next door neighbor buys a corldess phone handset that will work with my base unit unknown to me then uses my personal phone line to make long distance calls to Okinawa, Japan? No. It isn't ok. And this is no different.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: TheNinja
Let me ask you this. What do you say if someone steals your car b/c you left the keys in it, then messes with the brakes so that the next time you drive it you die in a fiery crash....and THEN they guy comes over b/c your house is unlocked and physically steals your Wireless Access Point?!?!?

weak, very weak.

A person would have to go out to your property for your very weak examples to even "kinda" fit. With wifi you are putting it, unsecure wireless, into/onto others property. Don;t like it, lock it up and/or don;t send it out.

The electromagnetic spectrum does not belong to the individuals whose property it passes through.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: GamerExpress

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: jndietz

Originally posted by: Nocturnal

Originally posted by: Modeps
An unsecure wireless network is a public use network.

That's up for debate.

no it's not. they should have secured it in the first place if they want it to be private

If you do not receive consent to use that PRIVATE network then you are using a system that is not yours - hence illegal.

100% wrong. If you take a look at the laws, it is not illegal to use someone elses wifi if it's left wide open. There have been a few cases where someone was charged and even convicted, the people that were convicted were always charged with stealing private information. I think we all know that borrowing someone's Wifi to browse around on the internet is one thing (that's ok). Snooping into the persons computer or home network via their Wifi and trying to find personal info like bank records and credit card info is NOT ok.

I've built many a public hotspots and am always required to provide consent.

It is a PRIVATE network by definition and requires consent. The FEDs are very clear on the definitions of a PRIVATE network. You can't just go around and say that stealing somebody's bandwidth and using their connection is OK. It just doesn't work like that no matter how you try to spin it.

Not only that it most definately breaks the terms of the owners service agreement with their provider.

There is a lot of buzz on this in the industry and you can expect to see more and more arrests.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: TheNinja
Let me ask you this. What do you say if someone steals your car b/c you left the keys in it, then messes with the brakes so that the next time you drive it you die in a fiery crash....and THEN they guy comes over b/c your house is unlocked and physically steals your Wireless Access Point?!?!?

weak, very weak.

A person would have to go out to your property for your very weak examples to even "kinda" fit. With wifi you are putting it, unsecure wireless, into/onto others property. Don;t like it, lock it up and/or don;t send it out.

The electromagnetic spectrum does not belong to the individuals whose property it passes through.

No, but the access point device and the ISP connection those waves are going to / emanating from does. If you scan the public spectrum radio waves and find my unencrypted signal and are able to glean personal information about me from that then no foul there (unless you then go use that information to commit fraud or something). My fault. But if you use that signal to connect to and access my network and steal the data from my computer directly, you go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

 

[Phoenix86]

For everyone saying "it's llegal": Say I WANT to share my connection, how does one operate a public network if it's illegal to even connect? How do you know if it's public or private? It's not like you can easily track down the owner.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: Nocturnal
I work in a computer repair shop which is located in a store that sells computer hardware. Anyway, the question we get at least a few times a day is, "Hey what wireless card should I use, a friend of mine can catch a signal from his house and I wanna get a wireless card that'll work."

What do you say to these types of people?

Whenever I try to tell them that it is against the law for you to be using their connection unless you have permission they always jump to the "Oh yeah, they know we're using it, it's a friend of mine." But just minutes before that, they said, "Someones" cable connection, lol.

Anyone experience this?

i would just mind my own business. :shrug:

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Phoenix86
For everyone saying "it's llegal": Say I WANT to share my connection, how does one operate a public network if it's illegal to even connect? How do you know if it's public or private? It's not like you can easily track down the owner.

Use a redirect to a page that declares the connection publically available and have them agree to the terms - bascially if the client opens a webpage to any address it is redirected to the terms of use/declaration page.

You set it up basically so only port 80 is allowed through the AP and the AP does a redirect. Once agreed upon the AP will allow that station access.

 

[Jon855]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: Modeps
An unsecure wireless network is a public use network.

So if you leave your front door unlocked at night, can I come in and hop in bed with you?

Exactly my thoughts... Just because it's there in public view/access doesn't means it's legal or open for everybody to use.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Phoenix86
For everyone saying "it's llegal": Say I WANT to share my connection, how does one operate a public network if it's illegal to even connect? How do you know if it's public or private? It's not like you can easily track down the owner.

That is a good question. . .would you be held liable for any illegal activity that somebody performs (such as kiddie pR0n or something) over your public network? Could open up a whole can of worms for yourself. I'd consult a lawyer. You might have all kinds of FCC regulations and such that you'd have to go by depending on the signal strength and footprint of the network you'd be making public.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: Phoenix86
For everyone saying "it's llegal": Say I WANT to share my connection, how does one operate a public network if it's illegal to even connect? How do you know if it's public or private? It's not like you can easily track down the owner.

That is a good question. . .would you be held liable for any illegal activity that somebody performs (such as kiddie pR0n or something) over your public network? Could open up a whole can of worms for yourself. I'd consult a lawyer. You might have all kinds of FCC regulations and such that you'd have to go by depending on the signal strength and footprint of the network you'd be making public.

nah, as long as you provide a disclaimer and terms of use you are covered. Just make sure you log the connections.

 

[FoBoT]

i would just say something obscure and highly technical sounding, but totally meaningless

 

[Phoenix86]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Phoenix86
For everyone saying "it's llegal": Say I WANT to share my connection, how does one operate a public network if it's illegal to even connect? How do you know if it's public or private? It's not like you can easily track down the owner.

Use a redirect to a page that declares the connection publically available and have them agree to the terms - bascially if the client opens a webpage to any address it is redirected to the terms of use/declaration page.

You set it up basically so only port 80 is allowed through the AP and the AP does a redirect. Once agreed upon the AP will allow that station access.

Have you ever read Catch-22? Good book/play.

How am I going to see that redirect page if connecting to the WIFI network is illegal?

ahurtt,

Fortunatly I'm not looking to set it up, more of a "what if" type Q. 😉

 

[imported_Kensai]

Originally posted by: ruffilb
"You may have access to my network, but that works both ways buddy... better call a data-recovery team soon!"

Horse porn! 😛

 

[Kanalua]

"lucky"

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think the concept of theft is ridiculous, as long as nothing malicious is done. It's like someone standing around while you play the radio. Their stealing your music? If you turn on a light and they see with it they are stealing too?

Bah.

 

[D1gger]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I think the concept of theft is ridiculous, as long as nothing malicious is done. It's like someone standing around while you play the radio. Their stealing your music? If you turn on a light and they see with it they are stealing too?

Bah.

The difference is that listening to someone elses radio or seeing by their flashlight is a one way transaction. You are receiving their signal / light waves, you are not communicating back. If you use someone's wireless network, you are directing traffic back through the network with your search requests dowloads and surfing. This is what makes it illegal.