What do you object to about Christianity?

[Hayabusa Rider]

I got more

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Ultimately, it was Jesus' love for humanity that killed him.

Jesus Christ agreed to do God's will, fully conscious of the horrific ramifications that His decision would have had for Him. Yet, He was greatly encouraged by the fact that his future suffering would have brought about salvation for all of humanity: "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world" (John 6: 51).

I thought it was the fallen nature of man that killed Jesus. That's what you said a half hour ago.

Also, the above passage does not address original sin in any way. I'm well acquainted with the story, anyway. I'd appreciate if you would stop quoting the Bible, especially when you are tempted to do so in defense of the Bible. The Bible can't corroborate itself.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

This is another thing that bothers me about Christianity (and other religions, though not all): the concept of original sin. As Christopher Hitchens puts it, we are born sick and told to be well. Essentially, we are are told that we are broken, undeserving, wormlike creatures from the moment we're born, but the good news is that God made the whole universe just for us and if we play our cards right -- pick the right religion (very important!), try not to kill too many people, don't think about sex too much (especially not with people of the same gender), and so on -- then God will hook us up when we die.

It's a really sad sort of slavery that so many people so willingly enter.

Here's the central text on the issue.

Romans 5:12-19 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[sandorski]

LOL, good jokes Haya.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Mohammad entered his classroom.
"What is your name?" asked the teacher.
"Mohammad," answered the kid.
"Here in France, there is no Mohammad. From now on your name will be Jean-Francois," replied the teacher.
In the evening, Mohammad returned home.
"How was your day, Mohammad?" asked his mother.
"My name is not Mohammad. I am in France and my name is Jean-Francois."
"Ah, are you ashamed of your name?! Are you trying to disown your parents?! Your heritage?! Shame on you!" And she beat him. Then she called the father and he beat him very hard.
The next day Mohammad returned to school.
When the teacher saw him with all the bruises she asked:
"What happened my little Jean-Francois?"
"Well Miss, 2 hours after becoming French, I was attacked by two Arabs."

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

LOL, good jokes Haya.

I'm of the opinion that in any given religious thread, there is 10% considered opinion and 90% flaming. That leaves no room for humor. I'm skewing the "data".

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Ultimately, it was Jesus' love for humanity that killed him.

That's less sensible than saying being born is "ultimately" what kills people. Y'know, 'cuz once you're born, you're gonna die.

Jesus Christ agreed to do God's will...

Isn't Jesus God? So he "agreed" to do his own will? Well heavens to Murgatroyd!

...fully conscious of the horrific ramifications that His decision would have had for Him.

Being allegedly omnipotent, it's hard for me to swallow the idea that any "ramifications" would be that horrific for a diety. I guess I'm not as credulous as you.

Yet, He was greatly encouraged by the fact that his future suffering would have brought about salvation for all of humanity: "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world" (John 6: 51).

Who is he "saving" humanity from? Himself? Why couldn't he have just decided differently? Why all the Kabuki theater?

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

I thought it was the fallen nature of man that killed Jesus. That's what you said a half hour ago.

Also, the above passage does not address original sin in any way. I'm well acquainted with the story, anyway. I'd appreciate if you would stop quoting the Bible, especially when you are tempted to do so in defense of the Bible. The Bible can't corroborate itself.

Jesus was God in the flesh, human nature killed him (indirectly of course) but he willingly submitted to it because of his love for humanity.

I'm a scientist and not a trained thelogian.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Here's the central text on the issue.

Romans 5:12-19 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I'm intimately familiar, thanks. This is another moral indignity imposed upon us by Christianity: the idea that for another man's sin, we can all be punished; and that another man could be punished for that very sin we did not deserve. So not only are we to feel guilty that we were born into sin, but that somebody else took the heat, all before we personally had any say in the matter. I am deeply offended by this, and it is perhaps my biggest objection to the Christian mythos.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

The thesis is policies such as infanticide, assisted suicide, marriage prohibitions and much else were being proposed for those considered racially or eugenically inferior by a variety of Darwinist writers and scientists...

Anyone proposing infanticide, assisted suicide, marriage prohibitions and the like was not doing so on any legitimately Darwinian basis.

...providing Hitler and the Nazis with a scientific justification for the policies they pursued once they came to power

There is no "scientific justification" for the Nazi's policies, and there never were.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Jesus was God in the flesh, human nature killed him (indirectly of course) but he willingly submitted to it because of his love for humanity.

I'm a scientist and not a trained thelogian.

I think it's clear you are neither.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

I think it's clear you are neither.

My employer may beg to differ with you on whether I am a scientist. I was hired as a Principal Research Scientist by a large corporation almost 2 years ago, and if I'm not one, my employer hasn't figured it out yet.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Isn't Jesus God? So he "agreed" to do his own will? Well heavens to Murgatroyd!


Being allegedly omnipotent, it's hard for me to swallow the idea that any "ramifications" would be that horrific for a diety. I guess I'm not as credulous as you.


Who is he "saving" humanity from? Himself? Why couldn't he have just decided differently? Why all the Kabuki theater?

Because he loved us. Come on, keep up.

But to be fair, the poetry of it is supposed to be that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine, so he would experience fear like anyone else in the face of death. Free will also threw a kink into things, which is usually given as the reason why God had to become man to nuke original sin -- a kind of goofy loophole for the omnipotent one, but hey, he moves in mysterious ways, right?

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

My employer may beg to differ with you on whether I am a scientist. I was hired as a Principal Research Scientist by a large corporation almost 2 years ago, and if I'm not one, my employer hasn't figured it out yet.

Fair enough; perhaps you are just not a good one. I wonder how your employer would feel about you moonlighting as a Bible-toting, science-defying evangelist and apologist.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

Fair enough; perhaps you are just not a good one. I wonder how your employer would feel about you moonlighting as a Bible-toting, science-defying evangelist and apologist.

\

I've been good enough to be continously employed for about 25 yrs and to have been awarded 60 US Patents. Are there better scientists than me? There are plenty. Engaging in science is humbling because it makes you realize just how much you don't know.

 

[Jeff7]

Humbing, indeed.

 

[Nik]

Jesus' death was the result of man's fallen nature.

You didn't refute his point. However, unless you refute his point with "Jesus chose to lay down his life..." you will systematically undermine the entire Bible by removing the divinity of Christ.

 

[Nik]

i thought it was from asphyxiation? something about having your arms holding up the bulk of your body and screwing up the diaphragm. forgot where i heard this.

Correct. He died because he couldn't breathe. That's why they broke his legs and speared him after 3 days.

When you're nailed to the cross, your body weight pulling down with your arms fixed outward leaves very little room for the diaphragm to move. Cross victims needed to push themselves up with their feet to lift the weight off of their shoulders/ribcage so they could take a breath.

You do not die of blood loss on the cross.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

\

I've been good enough to be continously employed for about 25 yrs and to have been awarded 60 US Patents. Are there better scientists than me? There are plenty. Engaging in science is humbling because it makes you realize just how much you don't know.

Sure, I believe you can remain employed. I just see it as a conflict of interest that you can willfully flout the scientific method on questions of cosmology, history, and biology (just to start), hold critical beliefs that lack legitimate supporting evidence, and troll rational people on a technology forum all while claiming to be a scientist. I think my joining the priesthood would be analogous, except I don't visit religious forums to pick intellectual fights that I'm destined to lose.

 

[Nik]

Here's the central text on the issue.

Romans 5:12-19 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Quantify sin, please. Additionally, please reference any and all evidence outside of your little book of fairy tales that would suggest that man has a soul or a spirit of any kind.

The Bible talks about how folks are innocent and not accountable for their actions. That's why the Bible talks about the age of accountability. Now, tell me, why would someone who's not accountable for their OWN actions, probably having sinned before an age or mental development stage where the concept of right and wrong are even conceivable...

ugh, I feel myself getting dumber even talking to someone about these simple concepts...

anyway, why would someone be responsible for someone ELSE'S mistake when they aren't responsible for their own?

 

[Nik]

My employer may beg to differ with you on whether I am a scientist. I was hired as a Principal Research Scientist by a large corporation almost 2 years ago, and if I'm not one, my employer hasn't figured it out yet.

If they're as brainwashed or as easily fooled by fairy tales and lies as you are, I'm not at all surprised.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

You didn't refute his point. However, unless you refute his point with "Jesus chose to lay down his life..." you will systematically undermine the entire Bible by removing the divinity of Christ.

Go back a few posts and you'll see that I said that.

 

[PhineasJWhoopee]

Quantify sin, please. Additionally, please reference any and all evidence outside of your little book of fairy tales that would suggest that man has a soul or a spirit of any kind.

The Bible talks about how folks are innocent and not accountable for their actions. That's why the Bible talks about the age of accountability. Now, tell me, why would someone who's not accountable for their OWN actions, probably having sinned before an age or mental development stage where the concept of right and wrong are even conceivable...

ugh, I feel myself getting dumber even talking to someone about these simple concepts...

anyway, why would someone be responsible for someone ELSE'S mistake when they aren't responsible for their own?

We are responsible for own mistakes.

 

[sandorski]

We are responsible for own mistakes.

Then why did Jesus die?

 

[HumblePie]

Correct. He died because he couldn't breathe. That's why they broke his legs and speared him after 3 days.

When you're nailed to the cross, your body weight pulling down with your arms fixed outward leaves very little room for the diaphragm to move. Cross victims needed to push themselves up with their feet to lift the weight off of their shoulders/ribcage so they could take a breath.

You do not die of blood loss on the cross.

Uhh death by asphyxiation only takes a few minutes. You either can breath or cannot. It's like anyone hanging on a cross is undergoing extreme physical exercise that requires more oxygen than normal either. You are literally hanging around. Also, your diaphragm is stretchable. Without that we wouldn't be able to breath at all. I don't think I need to call in Jamie and Adam to declare this myth busted.